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Nokia Files iPhone-Related Suit Against Apple Regarding Wireless Patents

majordude said:
Let's think this through.
You are Apple and on Day 1 I sue you. You've sold 1 phone. I get $1.
You are Apple and on Day 728 I sue you. You've sold a trillion phones. I get a billion dollars.
THAT'S why every patent suit gets "delayed."
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No, it's the same.

If I sue on Day 1, I get a dollar per unit from then on. You eventually sell a million phones, I will eventually get a million dollars.

If i sue on Day 728, I still get one dollar per unit. You've sold a million phones, I get a million dollars.

The only difference would be if I also get penalty money for your refusing to pay up.
 
MorphingDragon said:
Yep.

Does anybody know where I could find these said patents? I wanna read them for myself, Its often a good laugh.

Though patenting as a whole is flawed, basically. Even if you think up of something but dont even implement it, everyone else has to pay you for the use of it.

I should just sit in my room all day and think up some crazy ideas for virtual reality... like the use of a harness.
/Sarcasm
Click to expand...

Your local patent office... These patents are tied to GSM technology which Nokia developped. This is not some random brain fart nonsense.
 
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (Linux; U; Android 1.5; en-gb; HTC Hero Build/CUPCAKE) AppleWebKit/528.5+ (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.1.2 Mobile Safari/525.20.1)

The only way i'd say Nokia were wrong was if they were asking for more money than any of the other companies that licence thieir technology.

Nokia have a right to protect their patants they've filed as would Apple if anyone alse stole theirs. Why anyone would refute this is beyond me!
 
Who cares? why should i defend either companies??

Yes i do love Apple products and Nokia is not bad either but guys stop worrying about these huge companies..
 
Apple buys its phone chips from a company (Infineon?) that possibly indemnifies them. I'm guessing that Infineon must have some sort of licensing and/or cross-licensing for these technologies. Furthermore, Infineon purchased the mobility divison of LSI (formerly of AT&T->Lucent Technologies->Agere Systems lineage) which probably brought in even more licensing and/or cross-licensing.

Then again, maybe these law suits don't involve the Infineon chips.
 
warnergt said:
Then again, maybe these law suits don't involve the Infineon chips.
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A couple of years ago, Verizon had to pay royalties to free up some 3G chips, so it's possible that just buying the raw chips isn't enough... you might have to pay licenses for each one that you actually use.

Could also be related to the radio software instead of the chip itself. Voice encoding, GSM setup, auto-switch between 3G and WiFi.
 
Povilas said:
I hope Nokia gets a big 0.
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Don't be like that.. give them at least $1. They did supply people with functioning mobile phones* while apple was too busy licking it's chops and going bankrupt in the early years. It's the voice and audio compression that nokia spent millions contributing to and improving on. Apple pretty much picked up where they left off and slapped their logo onto.

In my opinion, apple is getting what's coming to them. Hell I hope they get a nasty burn for this one (i already have my iphone so i don't care). I say this only because apple sues for almost anything. You only have to look at their case against the australian supermarket chain woolworths/safeway to understand what dicks apple legal department are.


*(notice i didn't say smart phones, there is nothing smart about any of their phones. I despise all nokia phones and they way they handle wifi, pathetic in both software and hardware.)
 
ChazUK said:
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (Linux; U; Android 1.5; en-gb; HTC Hero Build/CUPCAKE) AppleWebKit/528.5+ (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.1.2 Mobile Safari/525.20.1)

The only way i'd say Nokia were wrong was if they were asking for more money than any of the other companies that licence thieir technology.

Nokia have a right to protect their patants they've filed as would Apple if anyone alse stole theirs. Why anyone would refute this is beyond me!
Click to expand...

The rights and wrongs of this case are not clear as yet - for example we don't know if anyone stole anything - that's what Nokia alleges. We don't even know the details of the patents in question. It does seem odd that if you buy a mobile wifi or GSM chip, the license for the tech would not be paid already by the vendor of the chip.

Perhaps this is a manoeuvre to force Apple to open up its stupid patents on things like a pinch gesture and cross-license with Nokia, so that the two can proceed without fear of litigation, or perhaps Apple has been playing hardball for too long in negotiations - at this stage it's very difficult to say.

Another perfect illustration of how the patent system is completely broken and doesn't reward innovation at all.
 
guet said:
The rights and wrongs of this case are not clear as yet - for example we don't know if anyone stole anything - that's what Nokia alleges. We don't even know the details of the patents in question. It does seem odd that if you buy a mobile wifi or GSM chip, the license for the tech would not be paid already by the vendor of the chip.

Perhaps this is a manoeuvre to force Apple to open up its stupid patents on things like a pinch gesture and cross-license with Nokia, so that the two can proceed without fear of litigation, or perhaps Apple has been playing hardball for too long in negotiations - at this stage it's very difficult to say.

Another perfect illustration of how the patent system is completely broken and doesn't reward innovation at all.
Click to expand...

Actually we know what patents apply to: speech encoding on GSM network, wireless data switching and data encryption.

This is just speculation but I don't think Nokia would be happy only with gesture patent since without Nokia patents it seems to be impossible to make a GSM phone. It seems this is the reason why all the other GSM handset manufacturers are paying royalties to Nokia.
 
intel said:
*(notice i didn't say smart phones, there is nothing smart about any of their phones. I despise all nokia phones and they way they handle wifi, pathetic in both software and hardware.)
Click to expand...

If I want to connect to a new AP, I can select "Search for WiFi" from the active standby screen, it searches, and lets me connect.

When using an application, it asks me what of the available connections I want to use (such as HSDPA or WiFi). It gives me a choice - not something Apple like to give.

If I want to make a SIP call, it asks me if I want to connect, and just does it.

Not exactly pathetic.


As for the rest of the thread, I think the fanboys trying to defend Apple are hilarious. It's okay for Apple to just use Nokia's patents as and when they wish, but if someone else uses an Apple patent - sue sue sue.
 
guet said:
Another perfect illustration of how the patent system is completely broken and doesn't reward innovation at all.
Click to expand...
Really?!?

This isn't some little shop patenting basic ideas and sitting on them until somebody implements them. Nokia has spent two decades and 40 billion euros on developing GSM(/UMTS/HSDPA/LTE) standard, and it has become a global communication standard.

There would be no reward for for Nokia's innovation and work if Apple was allowed to just to take a free ride.
 
guet said:
Perhaps this is a manoeuvre to force Apple to open up its stupid patents on things like a pinch gesture ...
Click to expand...

Except that Apple doesn't have patents on things like pinch. Or multi-touch or flick-scrolling or big buttons or anything that's been around for decades.

They've got a couple of patents for rubberbanding at edges and scroll lock, but using specific methods. Other companies seem to be doing those things anyway.

Can anyone think of an actual Apple patent worth anything to Nokia?
 
MorphingDragon said:
The sad thing is, is that most phones infringe on their patents. They just want to attack Apple because its their only decent competition in Europe.
Click to expand...

Huh? Apple is really doing bad in Europe with smartphones compared to for example HTC. The HTC Hero outsold the iPhone on a 3 to 1 basis in Europe. I wouldn't call Apple a "decent competitor" to Nokia in Europe.
 
kdarling said:
Except that Apple doesn't have patents on things like pinch. Or multi-touch or flick-scrolling or big buttons or anything that's been around for decades.

They've got a couple of patents for rubberbanding at edges and scroll lock, but using specific methods. Other companies seem to be doing those things anyway.

Can anyone think of an actual Apple patent worth anything to Nokia?
Click to expand...

At some point you just have to give up, dude. It doesn't matter how many times you correct them. They'll just skip right over your post and go on to write the same thing again.

I definitely appreciate the actual knowledge you bring to these threads, but sometimes, man, you just have to let it go, because it's gone.
 
kdarling said:
Can anyone think of an actual Apple patent worth anything to Nokia?
Click to expand...

Actual patents? probably not.

Knowledge through a written agreement that you wont have Apple take action against you for "look and feel" issues, or block you from interoperability (*cough*Palm*cough*), and things like that? That's probably the thing that's valuable to Nokia.
 
Nuvi said:
This is just speculation but I don't think Nokia would be happy only with gesture patent since without Nokia patents it seems to be impossible to make a GSM phone. It seems this is the reason why all the other GSM handset manufacturers are paying royalties to Nokia.
Click to expand...

This is precisely the bit with which I have a problem. Nokia seem to be suggesting others are benefiting from their innovation; but is that really the case?

Are Nokia's patents so revolutionary no one else can practically replicate that functionality? Or are they just 'roadblock' patents? Nokia got there first, patented everything, and now no one can make a GSM phone without paying a Nokia tax?

I'm fully supportive of Nokia if it's the former; but it seems like it's the latter: Nokia have a number of broad patents that no one can work around.
 
whooleytoo said:
This is precisely the bit with which I have a problem. Nokia seem to be suggesting others are benefiting from their innovation; but is that really the case?

Are Nokia's patents so revolutionary no one else can practically replicate that functionality? Or are they just 'roadblock' patents? Nokia got there first, patented everything, and now no one can make a GSM phone without paying a Nokia tax?

I'm fully supportive of Nokia if it's the former; but it seems like it's the latter: Nokia have a number of broad patents that no one can work around.
Click to expand...

That's exactly the kind of thing you have to decide in court, with expert testimony, etc.

(and, I'm willing to bet that everyone who knows the actual answer to which is the case ... wont be posting here about it)
 
whooleytoo said:
Are Nokia's patents so revolutionary no one else can practically replicate that functionality? Or are they just 'roadblock' patents? Nokia got there first, patented everything, and now no one can make a GSM phone without paying a Nokia tax?
Click to expand...

Actually, yes. But it's not just Nokia, there's a whole group of companies that contributed towards the GSM standard. Each gave something critical, which is the only reason it got off the ground.

There are almost constant lawsuits going on between large and small companies over GSM (and CDMA and WiFi) IP. There are even law firms that specialize in such cases.

It's hardly even worth it for us to comment on these cases, because they contain so much history that only a subject matter expert would know.
 
The three key patent holders in GSM are Nokia, Ericsson and Qualcomm. Apple allready has licensing deal with Ericsson, going to court with Nokia and I've no idea what is the situation with Qualcomm.

There's really no way to build GSM phones without getting licenses from those three corporations.
 
kzin said:
That's exactly the kind of thing you have to decide in court, with expert testimony, etc.

(and, I'm willing to bet that everyone who knows the actual answer to which is the case ... wont be posting here about it)
Click to expand...

True :)

Seems like a very cumbersome, time consuming, and expensive means of aiding/protecting innovation..

kdarling said:
Actually, yes. But it's not just Nokia, there's a whole group of companies that contributed towards the GSM standard. Each gave something critical, which is the only reason it got off the ground.

There are almost constant lawsuits going on between large and small companies over GSM (and CDMA and WiFi) IP. There are even law firms that specialize in such cases.

It's hardly even worth it for us to comment on these cases, because they contain so much history that only a subject matter expert would know.
Click to expand...

"Yes" to which question? :)

I don't know the specifics - as you say - so can't really comment with any authority. But it does seem as if these companies have effectively 'claimed' the GSM standard by making it extremely difficult to implement a GSM device without infringing on their patents. That doesn't really sound like "benefiting from our innovation" to me.
 
whooleytoo said:
True :)

But it does seem as if these companies have effectively 'claimed' the GSM standard by making it extremely difficult to implement a GSM device without infringing on their patents. That doesn't really sound like "benefiting from our innovation" to me.
Click to expand...
Licensing fees are pretty standard around 1-2% percent of the device and they allow everyone to get the licenses (i.e not stopping competitors from getting them). They created the technology and have the right to benefit from it.

Anyone, including Apple, can license GSM, use competing technologies (like CDMA or WIMAX) or develop their own network technology. Last option shouldn't take more than day or two, if Apple really is so awesomely innovative as the craziest fanbois make it out to be. It took helluva lot of time and money for the less awesome corporations.
 
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