Noob questions

Discussion in 'iOS Programming' started by Sergiy, Oct 26, 2012.

  1. Sergiy macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2012
    #1
    Hi All!
    I am vintage PC developer, but complete noob in Apple and need to start somehow. Is anyone here kind enough quickly answer few questions?

    I intend develop apps for iPhone, so:

    1. I need Mac. There are tools for PC to program iPhone, but they very cumbersome and Mac is far more preferable way. True or false?
    2. After I download Xcode (BTW my understanding it is free) I can start making my own program for free. But for ability of testing them on actual device I need to pay $99/year to Apple. True? Is any other hidden cost?
    3. I cannot distribute my apps by-pass iStore, or can I? I going to make apps for my clients and they will not be mass-production, but rather in limited numbers (say 5 downloads per app). Do I still need to publish them to iStore or I can download them to my client's iPhones somehow else?

    Thanks and sorry for stupid questions
     
  2. tersono macrumors 68000

    tersono

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2005
    Location:
    UK
    #2
    1. True

    2. Yes, Xcode is free. To deploy the app for testing, however, you need the developer account. The $99 also gives you access to a wide range of resources you may well find useful, however.

    3. You can install apps on iOS hardware that is managed by an organisation without going through the appstore, yes. The Developer program will give you the info you need, but basically your client will need to sign up for the volume purchase program.

    You might find this link useful: https://developer.apple.com/support/ios/enrollment.html
     
  3. needfx macrumors 68040

    needfx

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2010
    Location:
    macrumors apparently
    #3
    that was fast!!
     
  4. Sergiy thread starter macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2012
    #4
    Thanks for prompt answer. Link was most useful - somehow I could not find it by myself. One question though - for so-called Ah-Hoc distribution I need Developer Enterprise program, or I can walk away with Standard one?

    Thanks
     
  5. dejo Moderator

    dejo

    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2004
    Location:
    The Centennial State
    #5
    Actually, the Volume Purchase Program is for apps sold on the App Store. Seems the OP is trying to avoid that, if possible.

    Sergiy, here are your options as I seem them:
    a) sign up for the Individual or Company Developer Program and use ad-hoc distribution to deliver your app(s) to up to 100 devices
    or
    b) sign up for the iOS Developer Enterprise Program (assuming the company qualifies) and deliver your app in-house, as per that program.
     
  6. Sergiy thread starter macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2012
    #6
    Thanks dejo
    You right, I do not like to mess with AppStore. I already did some reading from link provided (thanks tersono!) and learned that I can do option a). Though it seems to me completely silly impose such stupid restriction. What stopping me "develop" "new" application just changing unimportant stuff? Heck, I may have "updated" version also!
    As per option b) I still cannot get what is "deliver in house" and help pagers from Apple not that helpful in this regard - everything incredibly obscure.
    My situation is that - I run tiny company and I have huge product that runs on windows base computers. Now I like to develop gate that allow my clients to use part of it on the go. But WTF - why do I need enforce my clients to subscribe on "volume purchase scheme" or push them to getting "Enterprise Developing license"?!? Why I as developer cannot freely distribute my own program???
     
  7. balamw Moderator

    balamw

    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2005
    Location:
    New England
    #7
    Have you considered a web app? No restrictions there...

    B
     
  8. dejo Moderator

    dejo

    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2004
    Location:
    The Centennial State
    #8
    Which "restriction" are you referring to here?

    Delivered in-house means that you host the downloadable internally within the company, probably on an intranet and employees access it accordingly. If you want more details than that, you might be best contacting Apple for further details.

    Define huge. And how many clients are we talking about?

    Because that is the way Apple had designed their app ecosystem. It's their system; they get to decide the rules. You either learn to live within the rules (like most developers do), or you find alternatives (web app, expecting all your clients to jailbreak their devices, etc.)
     
  9. Sergiy thread starter macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2012
    #9
    Already have mockup - works OK on descktops and should be fine on iPads, but on iPhone does not look that good due to small screen. Also I like it (app) to be far simpler to use
     
  10. dejo Moderator

    dejo

    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2004
    Location:
    The Centennial State
    #10
    Poppycock. None of those reasons preclude you from using a web app. You just need to tailor the design closer to the capabilities of the device.
     
  11. Sergiy thread starter macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2012
    #11
    100 downloads. And it is still unclear for me what would happens if I develop "new" application by just copying and slightly modifying existing one.

    Massive database - hundreds of GIGs in size and hundreds of millions in transactions. And graphic interface (on PC of course) to interrogate it. Some of my clients has just few users, some few dozens. Now I like to make portable mini-interface to do it on the go. Apps will be tailored for each client. But all this information irrelevant to original question.

    Obviously it was rhetorical question from person who been writing software in free word for 25+ years :)))))

    Thanks for kind answers. I think that Developer Program (not Enterprise) is the way to go.
     
  12. Sergiy thread starter macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2012
    #12
    Donno. For example I like to have full screen (no top, bottom, address ets bars) and like it scroll by pages, not progressively. Do not like to have zoom. May be it is possible to make such website, but then I have to teach my Ape users to use it properly. Too cumbersome. But may be you right.

    Cheers
     
  13. balamw Moderator

    balamw

    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2005
    Location:
    New England
    #13
    You'll have the exact same issue with an app.

    Just make the web app approximate the app's UI don't try to make it like a desktop interface.

    B
     
  14. dejo Moderator

    dejo

    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2004
    Location:
    The Centennial State
    #14
    It's not 100 downloads, it's 100 devices. And the number of apps you develop is irrelevant; you can install on up to 100 devices, regardless of whether you write 1 app or 1000 apps.

    The number of clients running your apps is relevant. And you have not answered that question yet.

    I'm not sure I understand. "Writing software in free word"? Care to elaborate?
     
  15. Kashsystems macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2012
    #15
    Ok maybe I am misunderstanding your intention but this is what I believe you are trying to do.

    You want to get the enterprise program to develop and distribute apps on your own to get around the app store.

    The instant Apple finds out about this, they will shut you down.


    Here are your options.

    You can have your app freely on the app store and have it designed to work with only work with a centralize (whether intranet or internet base) server.

    For the intranet base you can charge the server hardware, labor, training etc and focus on that. If you want to run a subscription service, you can have the sign up on your website only and just have the app as I mention earlier freely available. You can even have your salesmen billed your client directly for a subscription and that is ok. There are many companies that do this and it has not been an issue. Then have the application design to log into and exchange data however you like.

    You can also have your clients as part of your software package buy the enterprise developer program so they can distribute the app freely within their network and you can charge for your programming time, training, etc. Each client though that you wish to have an ad hoc solution need to do this.

    This from the FAQ will probably answer your question the best.
     
  16. PhoneyDeveloper macrumors 68030

    PhoneyDeveloper

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2008
    #16
    Read about the B2B program here

    http://www.apple.com/business/vpp/

    Using AdHoc distribution might work for a handful of devices but it will become inconvenient as the number of devices grows. The apps will expire at inconvenient times. It is also against Apple's rules.
     
  17. Sergiy thread starter macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2012
    #17
    Now it make sense

    I did. Each client of mine running own server. And it can be up to few dozens users for given server. My biggest client running about 40 users on massive database, while smallest has just 2 users on quite mediocre database. It depends.

    Easy. I been writing software for more then 25 years - mainframes, PC, AS400, DOS, Windows of various breeds, UNIX, PLC and so on. And everywhere once I compiled my project I could do with it whatever I want without any restrictions. Not here - I cannot freely install my program anymore. Moreover Apple can remove my program from iStore (effectivelly banning it from distribution) at it own discretion and can even copy and make profit out of it (or give away to any third party) without any obligations (yep, I kill more then an hour yesterday looking through license agreement). If someone can call it free world then he indeed has twisted logic. YMMV though.

    Cheers

    ----------

    Thanks - this is pretty much what I concluded by myself - put it into iStore for free and control my clients somehow else - via logins for example.

    Cheers
     
  18. dejo Moderator

    dejo

    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2004
    Location:
    The Centennial State
    #18
    While your experience is with writing software that can be freely distributed, Apple is not the first company to enforce such restrictions. And they won't be the last.

    Care to quote the exact section of the license agreement where it says Apple can "copy and make profit out of it (or give away to any third party) without any obligations"?

    Who's been calling it a free world? Only you, and just recently.
     
  19. Sergiy, Oct 29, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2012

    Sergiy thread starter macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2012
    #19
    Dare to give any single example? For my whole career there was no single instance where I was restricted in distribution of my own program.

    It was in license agreement when I signed up for developer program. I did not save it (I do not recall button to save anyway, though I could just copy contest) and I cannot find it on Apple website unless I start to enroll again. I cannot starting to enroll without Apple ID and my ID already been use. Talk to me now about freedom and transparency. If you care to give me a link to this agreement, I will gladly find corresponding section for you.

    EDIT: I managed to find this: http://www.guidebee.biz/forum/viewthread.php?tid=169 - mind you I cannot find it on Apple site. There is link to PDF on this page and although it may be a bit outdated, it still can give you an idea. Have a look at section 10.3 (and do not forget to look at section 10.2!!!) and explain me how else you can interpret it?

    Well, therefore you use to use live in jail. Heck, even modifying iOS called "jailbreak" while all other OS get "hacked" or "cracked" or somehow else - did you ever been curious why is that?

    Cheers
     
  20. dejo Moderator

    dejo

    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2004
    Location:
    The Centennial State
    #20
    NES Third-party licensing

    PS3 jailbreaking
     
  21. Sergiy thread starter macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2012
    #21
    Nintendo?!? Ah, leave me alone! I was talking about serious (i.e. business-oriented) systems! Mind you I am not intending to do games, I am intending to program business application. So basically Apple forcing me to choose from two scenario - either submit it to iStore (and enforce my clients to wait endlessly for bug fixing or upgrades) or forcing my clients to participate to Enterprise Developer Program. And what meat manufacture (quite a few of my clients in meat business) has to do to programing iOS???

    With jailbreaking you right - it originated from Sony PlayStation. But face it - in this regard Sony is so similar to Apple is no joke. And as far as I know Sony's approach (like putting bugs on audio CD) never been really successful nor popular.

    In short - I do not have iPhone or iPad. I sick of whole idea and cannot get hysteria surrounding it. I dislike Apple approach as whole and never been or became an Apple fan. I am not a fan of Windows either - in fact hate it - but managed somehow write programs for it for decades. I am mere self-employed programmer and can see a niche to get some income by programming iDevices - for reason that I cannot comprehend plenty of my clients love them. So lets talk technical and not political.

    Cheers
     
  22. balamw Moderator

    balamw

    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2005
    Location:
    New England
    #22
    IMO this remains your main issue. You don't understand that a large part of what makes a iOS a successful platform is that the touch/finger based UI is key. In order to understand that and be able to deliver quality product to your customers you need to get beyond that.

    Don't forget that the iPhone is absolutely wide open to web apps, as was the vision for the first iPhone. The App Store is an afterthought, very successful but still an afterthought.

    B
     
  23. dejo Moderator

    dejo

    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2004
    Location:
    The Centennial State
    #23
    Alright. Wish granted.
     
  24. Sergiy thread starter macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2012
    #24
    Sorry, I cannot get it - why to be a successful programmer I have to be crazy about idea? Does not make much sense to me. One to be successful gynecologist does not need to be a woman :D
    Web interface is an option and on iPad should work no probs. But iPhone screen IMHO way too small and dedicated app can be far better and more user friendly. Not saying much faster.
    I already made simple app - everything there in clone of C that makes live much more pleasant.
    Thanks everyone for participation, suggestions and explanation.
    Cheers
     
  25. PhoneyDeveloper macrumors 68030

    PhoneyDeveloper

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2008
    #25
    Do you think you can learn everything about becoming a gynecologist from a book? Or a lot of practice with a rubber model?

    You need experience with the real thing tovarish.

    If you don't like Apple you'll be very unhappy building iPhone apps. You need a device. You need to see how other apps do things.

    If your goal was to come here and tell us all the reasons why you hate doing this congratulations. You succeeded! Maybe you can tell us how much snow is in your street. That could be interesting.
     

Share This Page