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The logic of needs

This is getting off topic, but the notion of needs is so often misunderstood that it's worth a small post about it here. Those who want to dismiss the importance of some consumer good will frequently assert that it only satisfies someone's wants and not any real need. The underlying idea is that wants are subjective (and not important) whereas needs are objective (and presumably important).

This idea is fundamentally confused. In fact, needs logically presuppose wants. This is disguised by our language because we say things like "I need oxygen", a sentence whose surface grammar makes it seem as if my need for oxygen is something objective, completely independent of any wants that I may happen to have. But what I really mean when I say that I need oxygen is something like the following: "I need oxygen in order to achieve my end of continued survival", or more to the point, "I want to live, and I need oxygen in order to satisfy this want." If I didn't want to live, I certainly wouldn't need oxygen. The general point here is that needs only make sense if they are understood as a means of achieving some other end.

Once this is understood, the idea that satisfying needs is important but satisfying wants is not becomes incoherent. No doubt satisfying some wants is very important, and satisfying some other wants is of very little importance. Since needs depend on particular wants, satisfying some needs is also important, and satisfying many others is not. Hence, it is misguided to suggest that all things that satisfy wants are not important and all things that satisfy needs are.

Going back to the point in my original post, many people in our society do need new cars (or buildings) once in a while to satisfy important wants that they have.

Those who insist that new cars/buildings don't satisfy any needs usually mean that people can live without them. The implicit, unrecognized assumption here is that the wants associated with the need for a car are unimportant because the only important want is the desire to live. Although there is a lot of room for debate about what wants are and are not important, the assumption that the only important desire is for mere survival is highly implausible.

There's much more to be said but you get the point.

Warren

Correct. If you need...

Most 'needs', are quite simply not.
 
Come to think of it, the life span of a Norman Foster designed 'Apple City' will probably long outlive the company.
 
This is getting off topic, but the notion of needs is so often misunderstood that it's worth a small post about it here. Those who want to dismiss the importance of some consumer good will frequently assert that it only satisfies someone's wants and not any real need. The underlying idea is that wants are subjective (and not important) whereas needs are objective (and presumably important).

This idea is fundamentally confused. In fact, needs logically presuppose wants. This is disguised by our language because we say things like "I need oxygen", a sentence whose surface grammar makes it seem as if my need for oxygen is something objective, completely independent of any wants that I may happen to have. But what I really mean when I say that I need oxygen is something like the following: "I need oxygen in order to achieve my end of continued survival", or more to the point, "I want to live, and I need oxygen in order to satisfy this want." If I didn't want to live, I certainly wouldn't need oxygen. The general point here is that needs only make sense if they are understood as a means of achieving some other end.

Once this is understood, the idea that satisfying needs is important but satisfying wants is not becomes incoherent. No doubt satisfying some wants is very important, and satisfying some other wants is of very little importance. Since needs depend on particular wants, satisfying some needs is also important, and satisfying many others is not. Hence, it is misguided to suggest that all things that satisfy wants are not important and all things that satisfy needs are.

Going back to the point in my original post, many people in our society do need new cars (or buildings) once in a while to satisfy important wants that they have.

Those who insist that new cars/buildings don't satisfy any needs usually mean that people can live without them. The implicit, unrecognized assumption here is that the wants associated with the need for a car are unimportant because the only important want is the desire to live. Although there is a lot of room for debate about what wants are and are not important, the assumption that the only important desire is for mere survival is highly implausible.

There's much more to be said but you get the point.

Warren

Nice post Warren. But... clearly spoken like a privileged western man.

When you are in the position of having nothing, the assumption that the only important desire is for mere survival is actually true.

I don't know you, and I don't know your background, however by your previous post I can assume you're educated enough. Travelled though..?

Can I ask, have you ever spent time in South East Asia, rural China, Africa, India, Eastern Europe..? There in-lies an alternative definition to needs that you are perhaps not aware of.
 
Looking forward to this

In a world where Facebook employees get gourmet meals and Google employees get free childcare, you better believe that Apple is competing on every level, including having a workplace that people are really proud of. Some of the money that Apple has made in their remarkable comeback has to go to attracting the top talent if they want to keep going. Apple is growing in size so they want to build a new campus that inspires. Foster + partners is the right company for the job.

People leave their jobs for all sorts of reasons outside of money. Some more somewhere else for more recognition, nicer weather, and some for workspace.

People complaining about Apple not giving back to shareholders: I think Apple is doing just fine for its shareholders. If you've invested in Apple in the last 10 years then you have nothing to complain about.

Everyone else complaining about waste should try making their own billions and spend it how THEY like.
 
I hope it's not a gigantic phallic 50's bejewelled rocket-ship like his London tower is...

http://tinyurl.com/28umcxy

It might be innovative and all that, but, I'm sorry, it is just plain butt-ugly. Looks like it was designed by a 10 year old in 1958 who was struggling with gender issues.

If Liberace had a skyscraper, this would be it.

Frightened,
Cameron

Apart from that building being vastly taller than it is wide, I fail to make any connection to a penis. :confused:

You may as well wear a sign round your neck.
 
I am indeed a very fortunate Western man. And I certainly agree that the desires to survive held by the many people in the world who are less fortunate than myself are extremely important. Presumably, each of those desires is of equal importance to my own desire to survive.

But a human life in which no wants are satisfied beyond the mere desire for survival is, for most people at least, not a particularly desirable goal precisely because there are other very important wants in addition to the desire to survive. We don't wish mere survival for the poor of the world, but a decent life where some wants beyond that of mere survival get satisfied. Again, my point is that some wants that go beyond that of mere survival ARE important. The unfortunate fact that many people don't even survive to a decent age doesn't change this.

None of this is sufficient to show that Apple's new construction project is a morally great or even morally acceptable thing, but the fact that the project is not needed to support anyone's survival (if this is a fact) doesn't show that it is morally bad either.

I'll shut up now.

Warren

Nice post Warren. But... clearly spoken like a privileged western man.

When you are in the position of having nothing, the assumption that the only important desire is for mere survival is actually true.

I don't know you, and I don't know your background, however by your previous post I can assume you're educated enough. Travelled though..?

Can I ask, have you ever spent time in South East Asia, rural China, Africa, India, Eastern Europe..? There in-lies an alternative definition to needs that you are perhaps not aware of.
 
Nice post Warren. But... clearly spoken like a privileged western man.

Can I ask, have you ever spent time in South East Asia, rural China, Africa, India, Eastern Europe..? There in-lies an alternative definition to needs that you are perhaps not aware of.

Did somebody say privileged? At least those in the new apple digs will actually be able to enjoy it as they won't be DEAD

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taj_Mahal
tajs.JPG
 
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I am indeed a very fortunate Western man. And I certainly agree that the desires to survive held by the many people in the world who are less fortunate than myself are extremely important. Presumably, each of those desires is of equal importance to my own desire to survive.

But a human life in which no wants are satisfied beyond the mere desire for survival is, for most people at least, not a particularly desirable goal precisely because there are other very important wants in addition to the desire to survive. We don't wish mere survival for the poor of the world, but a decent life where some wants beyond that of mere survival get satisfied. Again, my point is that some wants that go beyond that of mere survival ARE important. The unfortunate fact that many people don't even survive to a decent age doesn't change this.

None of this is sufficient to show that Apple's new construction project is a morally great or even morally acceptable thing, but the fact that the project is not needed to support anyone's survival (if this is a fact) doesn't show that it is morally bad either.

I'll shut up now.

Warren

An interesting read - thoughtfully written and thought provoking.

All this was actually getting away from my original tack though, that being that businesses now must be seen to be Green, and take every opportunity to spin us some lines to help build up that perception - whether the reality is there or not.

Just wish more businesses were genuine in their efforts and honest in their communications.


Cheers
 
People are entitled to an opinion, of course. On this, your own is - quite simply - hideously wrong.

It was voted the best new building in the world by the top architects across the globe after it was built. It's universally loved by Londoners and is truly unique in both form and function.
Universally loved by those who don't have to work in it. It's 'unique form and function' includes poor ventilation and lots of rooms with weird shapes that no standard furniture will fit into.

I was unfortunate enough to spend two years attending a business school he designed - looked spectacular but was always either freezing cold or boiling hot, excessively noisy, had no decent collaboration spaces other than some old victorian cellars they dug up during construction and weren't allowed to demolish, and the lecture theaters were worse than the 60-year old ones at my old university.

Norman Foster is the ultimate 'napkin' architecht. He doodles a funky-looking design on a scrap of paper that gives the client warm fuzzies, hands it over to his huge army of peons to draft the blueprints, then people who have to do the construction and actually work in the damn thing spend decades wishing they'd got someone on board who could actually design a functional building. If I had a billion dollars for a building, I'd hold a contest and specify that it was open to any architect apart from him.

I hope Apple employees are ready to deal with a completely glass building with no opening windows and no aircon, a campus consisting of nothing but desks and shade-sails, or something equally cool-looking and useless.
 
Norman Foster is the ultimate 'napkin' architecht. He doodles a funky-looking design on a scrap of paper that gives the client warm fuzzies, hands it over to his huge army of peons to draft the blueprints, then people who have to do the construction and actually work in the damn thing spend decades wishing they'd got someone on board who could actually design a functional building. If I had a billion dollars for a building, I'd hold a contest and specify that it was open to any architect apart from him.

I can't judge the qualities of Norman Foster as an architect. However, I'm quite sure that Steve Jobs and Jonathan Ive are _not_ people who will get "warm fuzzies" over any design. If you look at the videos about the MBP made from one piece of metal, and the pride in it, these two will not accept anything that is beautiful without being totally functional inside. If you are right, then building for Apple might be quite an educational experience for Foster.
 
Norman Foster is the ultimate 'napkin' architecht. He doodles a funky-looking design on a scrap of paper that gives the client warm fuzzies, hands it over to his huge army of peons to draft the blueprints, then people who have to do the construction and actually work in the damn thing spend decades wishing they'd got someone on board who could actually design a functional building. If I had a billion dollars for a building, I'd hold a contest and specify that it was open to any architect apart from him.

I suspect your business school may have gone cheap and dirty after the first few meetings. They only got napkin as they all they paid for. Then got other architects to turn it in to a set of blue prints before screwing them too by cutting them out of the construction process. Which was handed over to contractors who claimed everything was too hard which is code for we miss read the set and put in far to low a price to build it right but now we have the job we are stuck. its ok they can trash talk the design team they aren't around.

It really wouldn't matter who the well know designer or even unknown designer was once the project manager (probably a business grad of that very school and trading on family connections) had the client convinced that he could get them as good a result without all those expensive full service fees. :p

I guessing every designer on this broad knows this doesn't just apply to architecture.
 
We're all getting tired...

Just don't pretend they're trying to help the environment. Problem is 'Green' is the current, essential marketing tool.


Don't get me wrong, I like Apple and their products. I just get tired of hearing the Green marketing spin day in day out, and not just from them.

Santabean -

Nobody is pretending that putting up a building has no environmental impact.

I'm sorry about how tired you are. You're making me a bit weary. Take some vitamins.

Ray
 
I certainly agree with you on this, Santabean. There is clearly a lot of greenwashing going on these days, and I also wish that more meaningful changes were being made to improve the sustainability of many products.

But there are some good changes being made, and I am hopeful that Apple's new building project will incorporate some innovative elements that will provide a big improvement in terms of sustainability when compared to other typical building projects. No doubt there will still remain much to criticize (as there is with current "green" cars), but a step in the right direction should still be recognized as a positive thing.

Thanks to Santabean for a thoughtful and civil discussion.

Warren

An interesting read - thoughtfully written and thought provoking.

All this was actually getting away from my original tack though, that being that businesses now must be seen to be Green, and take every opportunity to spin us some lines to help build up that perception - whether the reality is there or not.

Just wish more businesses were genuine in their efforts and honest in their communications.


Cheers
 
Love this guy's work. He didn't acquire a Royal title for nothing...

I really hate being unnecessarily pedantic, but if you mean royal as in the fact that he is a Sir makes him royal then you are wrong. It is simply an honour and not even up to the aristocratic level, let alone that of royalty. If you mean that the title was bestowed upon him by royalty, then I apologise and crawl back under my rock.
 
The ultimate palace, funded by the Apple Tax we've paid to own Apple products.

I can imagine the uproar if this was Microsoft instead of Apple.

No worries, Gates is busy giving back, while Steve builds a monument to further bolster his ego.

All hail the Supreme Leader... :)
Steve's had decades to satisfy his device fetishes, and the store rollout's demonstrated the desire to make "statement buildings" - and now - with the twilight of his career somewhere on the horizon can move to acting out a full-scale middle age "edifice complex."

With all those acres to play with and the world's fullest corp piggy bank, one thing's for sure: whether universally loved or not, expect something truly iconic.
 
I really hate being unnecessarily pedantic, but if you mean royal as in the fact that he is a Sir makes him royal then you are wrong. It is simply an honour and not even up to the aristocratic level, let alone that of royalty. If you mean that the title was bestowed upon him by royalty, then I apologise and crawl back under my rock.

Yes, by acquired I mean to say bestowed. You say tomato, I say tomato. ;)
 
I really hate being unnecessarily pedantic, but if you mean royal as in the fact that he is a Sir makes him royal then you are wrong. It is simply an honour and not even up to the aristocratic level, let alone that of royalty. If you mean that the title was bestowed upon him by royalty, then I apologise and crawl back under my rock.
Actually he's now Lord Foster!
 
Thinking about it some more, i wonder why they're going with foster over BCJ (Bohlin Cywinski Jackson), who they have gotten to do many projects (apple stores, steve's house, pixar studios...) for them in the past....
 
I suspect your business school may have gone cheap and dirty after the first few meetings. They only got napkin as they all they paid for.
Yeah, sure. They went so cheap and dirty that Norman Foster came along himself to shake hands with the Queen at the opening ceremony, and has it as a showcase project on his company's website.
http://www.imperial.ac.uk/college.asp?P=5344
http://www.fosterandpartners.com/Projects/1122/Default.aspx

Take it from me, that building is absolutely rubbish, no matter how good it looks. The forum/atrium area is atrociously noisy at the best of times, in any kind of a stiff wind the external shades over the glass roof sound like a 747 landing, the 'pringles can' of lecture theatres are all miserably stuffy and/or freezing cold with terrible layout, the climate control is appalling, and so on and on and on. It's a big funky-looking glass box designed as a 'statement' with absolutely no thought given to the poor saps who have to study in it.
 
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I can't wait to see what Norman Foster comes up with for Apple's new extension campus.
good2.gif


Mind you, given the very stringent earthquake safety requirements in California (remember, Cupertino has the San Andreas Fault line to the west and the Calaveras Fault line to the east), don't expect ridiculous-looking architecture for structural integrity reasons.
 
Long term my guess is that the 'old' Apple campus will transition to offices for just executives, lawyers, and marketing people.

The new space will take on the engineers, designers, and programmers.

This reminds me of the company I work at 20 years ago. We had an office that combined HQ with a call center. As they grew, they eventually built a new building an hour south of here and moved the phone center and other "real work" jobs down there while the HQ building used up all their new space for new executives and staff-support type departments.

My prediction is that Infinite Loop and most, if not all, of the De Anza Apple buildings will be empty in four years when the new campus is done. Also, Steve Jobs HATES the Loop design. I would not be surprised to see that whole place leveled to spite and get rid of the final legacy of John Scully from Apple.
 
So it's both ugly AND useless...

Universally loved by those who don't have to work in it. It's 'unique form and function' includes poor ventilation and lots of rooms with weird shapes that no standard furniture will fit into.

I was unfortunate enough to spend two years attending a business school he designed - looked spectacular but was always either freezing cold or boiling hot, excessively noisy, had no decent collaboration spaces other than some old victorian cellars they dug up during construction and weren't allowed to demolish, and the lecture theaters were worse than the 60-year old ones at my old university.

Norman Foster is the ultimate 'napkin' architecht. He doodles a funky-looking design on a scrap of paper that gives the client warm fuzzies, hands it over to his huge army of peons to draft the blueprints, then people who have to do the construction and actually work in the damn thing spend decades wishing they'd got someone on board who could actually design a functional building. If I had a billion dollars for a building, I'd hold a contest and specify that it was open to any architect apart from him.

I hope Apple employees are ready to deal with a completely glass building with no opening windows and no aircon, a campus consisting of nothing but desks and shade-sails, or something equally cool-looking and useless.

Thanks...

I can't judge the qualities of Norman Foster as an architect. However, I'm quite sure that Steve Jobs and Jonathan Ive are _not_ people who will get "warm fuzzies" over any design. If you look at the videos about the MBP made from one piece of metal, and the pride in it, these two will not accept anything that is beautiful without being totally functional inside. If you are right, then building for Apple might be quite an educational experience for Foster.

This bejewelled rocket ship is just plain hideous, I'm sorry...he must have done some great buildings to have been knighted, but this isn't one of them. On top of being gaudi and awful, it certainly doesn't fit into this, or any, neighbourhood, except one inhabited by the Jetsons.

Sincerely,
Cameron
 
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