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What!? Excel is awful. It's obviously very useful for a lot of people (literally billions of dollars on wall street are tracked with nothing other than an excel spreadsheet) but its such a terrible application. It's broken in so many ways. Sure it gets the job done, but it's such a PITA to use.

Just to name a few ....

You should add

5) The fancy footwork, contortion and voodoo needed to do complex graphs. :mad:

While excel is far from perfect it is very powerfull, but I'd say 95% of the users don't go beyond the use of formulas. I haven't tried numbers, but I bet for the majority of casual excel users it would do just fine.
 
Error bars are not just for scientists

I agree with the general frustration regarding the absence of error bars in numbers.

I must point out that the need for, and therefore the market for, error bars extends far beyond the requirements of professional scientists.

All college students and most high school students are obliged to use graphing programs. Teachers and professors demand that error bars be included in these graphs. As an educator, I demand error bars on graphs produced by my students, and regard data lacking error bars as meaningless.

Thus the market for this one feature is far larger than Apple appreciates- it includes anyone satisifying even the most benign breadth requirements to obtain a college degree. I don’t know how many that is, but it has to be a significant market.

When one also considers how many have taken the trouble to specifically complain about their absence in Keynote, Pages, and now Number (96,000 and counting by quick Google search) and the fact many more are annoyed by this but have not vented their frustration publically, the absence of error bars becomes harder to comprehend.

Compounding our collective frustration this is the fact that the desire to replace Excel and MS word by the consumer is high. These programs are cumbersome, CPU hungry, and crash prone.

Speaking as a professional medical researcher, I LOATHE Excel and Word.
The complicated and large documents I produce for grants are crash-prone, do not mesh well with EndNote or any other reference program, and have infuriating quirks such as a refusal place figures where I want them, or randomly changing fonts, even after the specific font desired has been changed in preferences. It has become routine for me to allow a week just to tweak the document prior to submission to the NIH. This is a waste of my time. All of my colleges agree. I work in the largest non-profit research organization in the United States. There are nearly 900 computers in our specific department. There are about 20 PCs. Half of the 2 are connect to technical equipment that won’t speak to Macs. We’d love to dump MS word and Excel from our computers. I have imported these docs into Pages and the problems vanish. But Pages doesn’t do error bars, and won’t talk to Endnote, so it’s useless.

Apple has been repeatedly beseeched by loyal consumers to add error bars to iWork programs for years. The consumer has repeatedly gone to great lengths to make this simple and reasonable request known.

Now Apple comes out with a program called Numbers, which is SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED TO BE A GRAPHING PROGRAM. Yet, still no error bars.

I have to say this continued contempt for the wishes of an important part of Apple’s consumer base is to eroding my goodwill towards the company.
 
Numbers, as well as iWork as a whole works fantastically for my needs. But with as much hell raising as I've read here on the boards and around the web about the lack of error bars I would be very surprised if Apple didn't implement them.
 
I have to say this continued contempt for the wishes of an important part of Apple’s consumer base is to eroding my goodwill towards the company.

Good God, man, how many times do we have to say it -- this is a "1.0" release of a unified consumer/home -oriented program??? Omitting an advanced data analysis feature that this successful college graduate has never even HEARD OF does not indicate Apple's "continued contempt" for its customers! Your software demands far exceed the typical requirements of the normal people Numbers was intended for. There is no shame in writing excellent general-purpose software for the masses, despite your stated "contempt" for Apple's iWork team. Maybe you need to shop a little harder for your next data analysis package.
 
Good God, man, how many times do we have to say it -- this is a "1.0" release of a unified consumer/home -oriented program??? Omitting an advanced data analysis feature that this successful college graduate has never even HEARD OF does not indicate Apple's "continued contempt" for its customers! Your software demands far exceed the typical requirements of the normal people Numbers was intended for. There is no shame in writing excellent general-purpose software for the masses, despite your stated "contempt" for Apple's iWork team. Maybe you need to shop a little harder for your next data analysis package.

I'd be surprised if Excel version 1.0 had error bars. I seem to remember it had trouble calculating. :D

Lotus 1-2-3 1.0 would have been considered a disappointment also. It wasn't much more than VisiCalc with a nicely formatted menu system.

I can see how a lot of people would mistake a $79 suite for a $400 suite, of course. They should be exactly equal. :eek:
 
I must be lucky, because I've only made a spreadsheet about twice in my life. I really don't need to. But, in the case that I do, Numbers looks easy and farmiliar.
 
Compounding our collective frustration this is the fact that the desire to replace Excel and MS word by the consumer is high. These programs are cumbersome, CPU hungry, and crash prone.

Speaking as a professional medical researcher, I LOATHE Excel and Word.
The complicated and large documents I produce for grants are crash-prone, do not mesh well with EndNote or any other reference program, and have infuriating quirks such as a refusal place figures where I want them, or randomly changing fonts, even after the specific font desired has been changed in preferences. It has become routine for me to allow a week just to tweak the document prior to submission to the NIH. This is a waste of my time. All of my colleges agree. I work in the largest non-profit research organization in the United States. There are nearly 900 computers in our specific department. There are about 20 PCs. Half of the 2 are connect to technical equipment that won’t speak to Macs. We’d love to dump MS word and Excel from our computers. I have imported these docs into Pages and the problems vanish. But Pages doesn’t do error bars, and won’t talk to Endnote, so it’s useless.

LaTeX

I used to have very similar problems with Word and large documents, particularly the glitch where attempting to save would crash the program and sometimes take down Windows. Switching to LaTeX has solved almost all of those problems. It gives you complete control over fonts, formats, figures, and citations. There is also apparently Endnote support (haven't tried that yet myself).
 
Excel is a disappointment. Remember it is a two way street.

If I had used Numbers for many years and started to use Excel, I would be even more disappointed. Excel is missing features that Numbers has such as the free form tables per sheet and using named ranges out of the box.

Excel seems like a step backward. It would be easier to update Numbers to do what Excel does today in a future version.
 
Excel was also released 22 years ago, times and expectations have changed. If Numbers was released by anyone other than Apple people would be ripping it to pieces.

The point is that no version 1.0 release has everything or works perfectly.

Lotus 1-2-3 users were as rabid as Apple fanatics, especially when Excel was introduced. A lot of them are probably using Excel now.
 
The point is that no version 1.0 release has everything or works perfectly.

Lotus 1-2-3 users were as rabid as Apple fanatics, especially when Excel was introduced. A lot of them are probably using Excel now.

I dont expect it to have everything, but the point is its missing basic functions that were available when I was first using Supercalc 20 years ago.

Would people be defending it so vigorously if Excel was an Apple product and Numbers was Microsofts first spreadsheet attempt?
 
I dont expect it to have everything, but the point is its missing basic functions that were available when I was first using Supercalc 20 years ago.

Would people be defending it so vigorously if Excel was an Apple product and Numbers was Microsofts first spreadsheet attempt?

It's rare that I've ever defended a haphazard product so it's rare that I would defend any Microsoft product at all but I can say that I've defended a lot of version 1.0 products because they have promise.

I'm sure I can find functions in Perfect Calc that Numbers doesn't have but it doesn't matter because Perfect Calc never mattered and Supercalc barely mattered.

Mesa probably has more functionality than any of these spreadsheets and yet, does anyone really use it? What happened to those lovely pivot table products?

Hold your pants on. You'll get what you want.
 
I'd also like to cast a favorable vote towards Numbers. I've never had to use Excel, and when I thought I might create something simple, I opened the app and then promptly closed it... I guess I just didn't want to deal with it.

But with Numbers, I created a couple of really nice price estimate tables (really basic stuff) the other day with nearly no effort. Like Steve said... it's Excel for the rest of us.

I couldn't be more pleased. :p
 
As a biologist I have to say that Numbers is completely useless to me and likely almost anyone working in research. Not being able to add error bars to a graph is, quite frankly, ridiculous.

I realize that it wasn't designed for researchers, however, if this small function was included with the program Numbers would have been useful for the simple graphs I need to formulate on a weekly basis. The "iFun"-mentality does not extend to spreadsheet applications IMO; its a work-application.

Numbers doesn't need to have all the "confusing" functions that Excel has, but it certainly needs to have the ability to add error bars to a graph to be a useful everyday application for a significant percentage of the population.
 
Numbers and Error bars

Good God, man, how many times do we have to say it -- this is a "1.0" release of a unified consumer/home -oriented program??? Omitting an advanced data analysis feature that this successful college graduate has never even HEARD OF does not indicate Apple's "continued contempt" for its customers!


I must stress that error bars are not an advanced data analysis feature. They long pre-date computers or even calculators. They are fundemental to any graphic representation of values taken from multiple measurements. Typically, the concept of error bars is introduced at the same time students are taught how to make graphs. Certainly this is prior to admission to college. It is likely you were expose to the concept, but perhaps they were given a different name.

Furthermore, Numbers, unlike Pages or Keynote, is specifically intended to be a spreadsheet and graphing program. It is intended to be used to make graphs. The absence of error bars in this context is analogous to ommitting the capacity to indent paragraphs, or include punctuation in a word processor. Yes, you could write without these features, but would the result be deemed acceptable to anyone reading them?

Your software demands far exceed the typical requirements of the normal people Numbers was intended for.

Who is the program intended for? It was intended for people who a) own a computer and b) are willing to take the trouble, or are obliged professionally, to represent numerical information in graphical form.

The argument that this is a first release, or that is it an inexpensive consumer product so that our expectations should be low, ignores the fact that 1) people have been begging Apple include this feature in Pages and Keynote for YEARS, and those aren't even dedicated graphing programs, 2) it is trival for the software engineers to include this feature - it would cost nothing to include, and 3) error bars are basic and fundemental to the intended purpose of this application.

There is no shame in writing excellent general-purpose software for the masses, despite your stated "contempt" for Apple's iWork team.

I did not state that I have contempt for Apple's iWork team. Indeed I hold them in high regard, which is why this omission is so disappointing.

And I disagree- there is shame. Indeed, so incredible and outlandish was the omission of error bars from the Keynote and Pages graphing functions that many speculated that Apple had an "understanding" with Microsoft not to tread on their territory. Their absence from Numbers is even more remarkable, and reinforces this suspicion. The result is a product that cannot replace MS's software. If this is true, then its creators have deliberately made an otherwise outstanding product a lame duck.
*That* is a shame.
 
Numbers and Error bars

"Good God, man, how many times do we have to say it -- this is a "1.0" release of a unified consumer/home -oriented program??? Omitting an advanced data analysis feature that this successful college graduate has never even HEARD OF does not indicate Apple's "continued contempt" for its customers! "

I must stress that error bars are not an advanced data analysis feature. They long pre-date computers or even calculators. They are fundemental to any graphic representation of values taken from multiple measurements. Typically, the concept of error bars is introduced at the same time students are taught how to make graphs. Certainly this is prior to admission to college. It is likely you were expose to the concept, but perhaps they were given a different name.

Furthermore, Numbers, unlike Pages or Keynote, is specifically intended to be a spreadsheet and graphing program. It is intended to be used to make graphs. The absence of error bars in this context is analogous to ommitting the capacity to indent paragraphs, or include punctuation in a word processor. Yes, you could write without these features, but would the result be deemed acceptable to anyone reading them?

"Your software demands far exceed the typical requirements of the normal people Numbers was intended for."

Who is the program intended for? It was intended for people who a) own a computer and b) are willing to take the trouble, or are obliged professionally, to represent numerical information in graphical form.

The argument that this is a first release, or that is it an inexpensive consumer product so that our expectations should be low, ignores the fact that 1) people have been begging Apple include this feature in Pages and Keynote for YEARS, and those aren't even dedicated graphing programs, 2) it is trival for the software engineers to include this feature - it would cost nothing to include, and 3) error bars are basic and fundemental to the intended purpose of this application.

"There is no shame in writing excellent general-purpose software for the masses, despite your stated "contempt" for Apple's iWork team."

I did not state that I have contempt for Apple's iWork team. Indeed I hold them in high regard, which is why this omission is so disappointing.

And I disagree- there is shame. Indeed, so incredible and outlandish was the omission of error bars from the Keynote and Pages graphing functions that many speculated that Apple had an "understanding" with Microsoft not to tread on their territory. Their absence from Numbers is even more remarkable, and reinforces this suspicion. The result is a product that cannot replace MS's software. If this is true, then its creators have deliberately made an otherwise outstanding product a lame duck.
*That* is a shame.
 
The absence of error bars in this context is analogous to ommitting the capacity to indent paragraphs, or include punctuation in a word processor

I agree with your latter analogy; omitting punctuation all together in a word processor. Error bars are a critical piece of information for interpreting the visual display of quantitative data.
 
And I disagree- there is shame. Indeed, so incredible and outlandish was the omission of error bars from the Keynote and Pages graphing functions that many speculated that Apple had an "understanding" with Microsoft not to tread on their territory. Their absence from Numbers is even more remarkable, and reinforces this suspicion. The result is a product that cannot replace MS's software. If this is true, then its creators have deliberately made an otherwise outstanding product a lame duck.

Happy to see how many people joined MacRumors just to be able to tell us about their disappointment with Numbers. I'm just wondering if Numbers would be useful for a statistician who tries to find a correlation between the date of joining MacRumors and their opinion about this software.

I myself joined slightly earlier than this month; I have used spreadsheets slightly longer than many people (I have owned copies of VisiCalc and Robert Lissner's original Appleworks), and I have never, ever used error bars.
 
Until all the fuss started I didn't even know wat error bars were. I had to look it up. Never had to mess with such things (as I can recall from all those years ago) when I was getting my Computing Science Degree :D

Now - as to Numbers... So far it has been perfectly satisfactory for some light data analysis I needed when doing free-lance games design (tabletop wargames - not computer games). My only small issue is that I have yet to find a way to designate a column or cell range as the source for the contents of a pop-up menu when I was playing about with it. I came up with a work-around, but it would have been nice to be able to do it with a direct assignment.

On the other hand, Pages is perfect for my needs. Apple fixed one bug that was a real irritation in Pages 05, and added a feature which I suggested using the "Provide Pages Feedback" link. I have no way of knowing how many requested it, but its kind of cool to think they added it just for me ;). either way, Pages now does everything I require of it while providing file compatibility with Word (a requirement for my free-lance work). Looks like I will not be bothering with the next version of Office (whenever it comes out). A family pack of iWork is alot less than two full Office licences would be (need it for the MacBook too).

Now, I think I'll fire off some feedback on those pop-up lists to Apple. I don't expect them to add new features to this version of Numbers, but I do think they have a solid foundation on which to build. Version 2 is going to rock... :D
 
Lotus 1-2-3 users were as rabid as Apple fanatics, especially when Excel was introduced. A lot of them are probably using Excel now.

Actually, you can still buy Lotus 1-2-3, it's part of IBM's Lotus SmartSuite. Ironically, it's only available for Windows.

As a biologist I have to say that Numbers is completely useless to me and likely almost anyone working in research. Not being able to add error bars to a graph is, quite frankly, ridiculous.

As a salesman, I have absolutely no use for these "error bars". Do you think if I called Microsoft and told them I don't use them that they might refund a protion of the , "quite franky, ridiculous" price I paid for the suite? (Come to think of it, I'd like some money back for Entourage (crippleware) and MSN Messenger).

Numbers doesn't need to have all the "confusing" functions that Excel has, but it certainly needs to have the ability to add error bars to a graph to be a useful everyday application for a significant percentage of the population.

Could you provide a graph of just how statistically significant that percentage of the population is? Don't forget the error bars!:D
 
As a salesman, I have absolutely no use for these "error bars". Do you think if I called Microsoft and told them I don't use them that they might refund a protion of the , "quite franky, ridiculous" price I paid for the suite? (Come to think of it, I'd like some money back for Entourage (crippleware) and MSN Messenger)."

At no point have I complained about the price of the iWork suite. IMO, Keynote 08' alone is worth the money. This thread is concerned with the general satisfaction of the community regarding Numbers. As a member of the community - I don't find the application useful.




Could you provide a graph of just how statistically significant that percentage of the population is? Don't forget the error bars!:D
You have any funding? :D
 
Alas... Numbers is not the replacement I was so hoping for.
It is absolutely useless - and I am not sure Apple will ever fix it by the looks of things.

I know this is not the answer you want but Numbers was never meant for you..It is for the soccer mom and dad to do team schedules, the home budget, lists of reciepes, a quick home loan calc.

Would Mathematica do what you need?

http://www.wolfram.com/
 
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