NYC Bus Strike

[thedude110]

Have you seen their demands?

I haven't. Link? All I've seen is that the MTA wants to raise the age for full pension from 55 to 62. I would also be pretty angry with my employer in that context.

I hate people that go on strike; and I hate the unions that recommend it. In fact, I hate ALL unions!

I, for one, am very glad to be a part of my teacher's union (without which I don't think we'd be starting at 33K). Do you really hate "ALL unions?" Without our union, our pensions would have been slashed drastically over the last few years.

Should the folks who enacted the Pullman Strike have accepted the terms of their employment?

Not to send this off to the political forum or anything ...

 

[Koodauw]

I don't understand how striking can get you a one million dollar a day fine. Is it for breach of contact?

 

[eclipse525]

Unfortunately, it's a double edge sword. On the one hand you have the "Unions" who serve as the voice of the employees who in essence, don't really have any power BUT with the help of "Unions", they have a voice and some sort of power. Without "Unions", "Employers" can easily take advantage of the system without challenge. Yet on the other had the "Unions" are easily corrupted and can take advantage of the system as well. This is how you get "unskilled" laborers with ridiculous salaries and ridiculous pensions. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. I'm sure there is a better way but no one wants to make that happen. I'm sure we have enough brilliant minds to come up with a better system. OH, I'm sorry, I was making sense. LOL!


~e

 

[Warbrain]

There should never be a reason for a public utility union to go on strike. Both sides should understand that it's better for both in the end to agree on a contract. By the state being stubborn and not making any concessions (or vice versa), a whole bunch of people get screwed.

And remember, unions are a necessary aspect of our lives. You may not be a member of one as only 13% of Americans are members of unions now, but if it wasn't for the unions in the past working to keep the wages as high as they are we wouldn't be as well off as we are in the United States. The businesses would've paid their works absolutely nothing and it would've stayed that way for a very long time.

 

[MongoTheGeek]

I don't understand how striking can get you a one million dollar a day fine. Is it for breach of contact?

Its for contempt of court. There is a law preventing government employees from striking. The city went to a judge before the strike to get the judge to tell the union that it was illegal. When the union struck anyway it wasn't just an illegal action it violated a court order so even if the law was later struck down they are still in trouble with the judge.

I haven't. Link? All I've seen is that the MTA wants to raise the age for full pension from 55 to 62. I would also be pretty angry with my employer in that context.

That is for new hires. People who have been working there would still be able to retire at 55.

I don't make near that much money and will in all likelyhood die at my desk.

In the news I haven't seen much symapthy for the workers. They are all being made out as Grinches stealing Christmas. I can't imagine what Times Square will be like for New Years if noone can take the subway in.

One last thought. New York is both the best and the worst city to do this to. I doubt there is a city in the world more dependant on public transportation. On the other hand I doubt there are people in the world more stubborn and enduring than New Yorkers.

 

[Koodauw]

Thanks Mongo.

Striking just doesn't seem like it should be illegal. I'm not a big law guy, but its an interesting development.

 

[MongoTheGeek]

Thanks Mongo.

Striking just doesn't seem like it should be illegal. I'm not a big law guy, but its an interesting development.

I am of a mixed mind about it. I think it should be everybodies right to say screw it an walk away. I think they should be able to get together and walk away.

On the other hand I am not a big union fan. I've seen towns destroyed. I favor the individual. Unions have a certain thuggery about them. The union can decide who is allowed and not allowed to work. If I am in a union I can't say screw it an walk away from the union at least not and keep my job. They are in many ways a parasitic middle management.

I am not saying they haven't done some good. I think that they are trading one problem for another.

 

[EricNau]

I, for one, am very glad to be a part of my teacher's union (without which I don't think we'd be starting at 33K). Do you really hate "ALL unions?" Without our union, our pensions would have been slashed drastically over the last few years.

Should the folks who enacted the Pullman Strike have accepted the terms of their employment?

Not to send this off to the political forum or anything ...

I believe that at this point in History, unions do much more bad than good. There are laws to regulate this kind of thing, unions are unnecessary.
And I'm sorry, but if you not happy with what you are getting paid, or your benefits, quit, and find a new job, no one is forcing you to be a teacher (or whatever).
Unions have way too much power. Lets say I wanted to be a teacher. I don't have much of a choice except to be a part of that union, and if that unions says to go on strike, I don't have a choice, EVEN IF I WAS HAPPY WITH MY JOB!

If you look at the History of Unions, they were meant to protect the worker from unsafe conditions. Mainly it was for safety and fair treatment, not because they weren't happy with their pay.

That was 100 years ago.

 

[Deepdale]

My heart just breaks for basically unskilled workers making $55-$70K with a pension and health benefits for life. Bloomberg should pull a Reagan and fire all their asses.

There would be a joyous celebration in the streets if that ever happened. The union clearly will not have much public sympathy for what they did and when they chose to do it. Compared to the typical American salary, the TWU members are above average, and the jobs do not exactly place a heavy burden on one's intellect.

 

[Deepdale]

Its for contempt of court. There is a law preventing government employees from striking.

The Taylor Law was enacted in 1967 as a result of the prior NYC transit strike back in 1965. The problem with its provisions for imposing severe sanctions against both the union and workers participating in an illegal strike, is that fines are often removed or dramatically reduced during the eventual final negotiations that end the strike. Such action tends to embolden other unions when they are negotiating their municipal contracts.

I can't imagine what Times Square will be like for New Years if no one can take the subway in.

That would be an extraordinary occurrence and, while I believe this mess will be settled before then, you can never guarantee anything.

New York is both the best and the worst city to do this to. I doubt there is a city in the world more dependant on public transportation. On the other hand I doubt there are people in the world more stubborn and enduring than New Yorkers

Excellent point. NYC residents are very resilient and have adapted to dealing with challenging situations. However, after what many endured yesterday in brutal temperatures, I think a substantial number of those individuals will decide to remain home today. I have lived in NYC my entire life and these strikes have a paralyzing effect because in such a densely populated area mass transit rules (like it or not).

 

[.Andy]

Compared to the typical American salary, the TWU members are above average, and the jobs do not exactly place a heavy burden on one's intellect.

I think being a public transport driver would suck. A total lack of respect, abusive and aggressive passengers, drunk idiots all night, traffic all day, long shifts. I don't particularly enjoy travelling on a bus, let alone being confined to one all day as my place of work. Seems to me about the only attractive thing about it would be the above average pay.

 

[Deepdale]

I think being a public transport driver would suck. A total lack of respect, abusive and aggressive passengers, drunk idiots all night, traffic all day, long shifts.

I share your view. What annoys me most about the times I take a bus are the operators who are overly fond of using the horn. If the vehicle ahead of them does not move the instant a light turns green, the horn will start blaring. Drivers ... please exercise proper restraint and common decency while showing some respect for the many New Yorkers who have to grapple with dreadful noise pollution on a daily basis.

 

[thedude110]

And I'm sorry, but if you not happy with what you are getting paid, or your benefits, quit, and find a new job, no one is forcing you to be a teacher (or whatever).
Unions have way too much power.

Most teachers care more about social justice than pay. Lucky for you, because if you really want to advocate that teachers quit if they aren't satisfied with their pay, well, say goodbye to American public education! Teacher's unions protect far more than they harm (even though taxpayers are outraged when teachers ask for a 1.5% raise -- something we didn't get for this academic year).

I won't disagree with you to a point, and emotionally I can undestand your position of

I hate ALL unions!

I would argue, though, that's it's not a very well thought-out position, in either a historical or a contemporary context.

I'm still looking for someone to provide a link in this thread to the union demands. I'm reading a lot of hearsay, and a lot of emotionally charged stuff, but I'm not getting many facts.

 

[thedude110]

Compared to the typical American salary, the TWU members are above average, and the jobs do not exactly place a heavy burden on one's intellect.

Compared to the average salary in Manhattan ($105,300 per year), salaries for Manhattan's TWU workers are well below average.

 

[Deepdale]

Compared to the average salary in Manhattan, salaries for Manhattan's TWU workers are well below average.

My reference was to the far more meaningful average salary of a worker in America. In many more ways than one, Manhattan is an island unto itself and compared to the salary cited of a typical Manhattan resident, most of us would be considered salary deprived (and I have no reason to complain about my earnings -- although it is obviously easier to manage as a single person).

 

[darkwing]

Unfortunately, it's a double edge sword. On the one hand you have the "Unions" who serve as the voice of the employees who in essence, don't really have any power BUT with the help of "Unions", they have a voice and some sort of power. Without "Unions", "Employers" can easily take advantage of the system without challenge. Yet on the other had the "Unions" are easily corrupted and can take advantage of the system as well. This is how you get "unskilled" laborers with ridiculous salaries and ridiculous pensions. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. I'm sure there is a better way but no one wants to make that happen. I'm sure we have enough brilliant minds to come up with a better system. OH, I'm sorry, I was making sense. LOL!


~e

While I agree unions were needed during America's industrial revolution, they really aren't anymore. The best jobs go to the best people, and if you want the best people you're going to treat them well or else they'll look for other jobs. Capitalism works both ways, and jobs are products people buy just like anything else.

 

[darkwing]

I, for one, am very glad to be a part of my teacher's union (without which I don't think we'd be starting at 33K). Do you really hate "ALL unions?" Without our union, our pensions would have been slashed drastically over the last few years.

Not to send this off to the political forum or anything ...

If they didn't start people with a high enough wage, nobody would teach there. They'd have to raise the pay to get teachers. That's how the free market works.

Don't even get me started on public employee pensions. It's easy to promise that when your revenue comes from something akin to pointing a gun at someone and demanding more of their money.

 

[darkwing]

I think being a public transport driver would suck. A total lack of respect, abusive and aggressive passengers, drunk idiots all night, traffic all day, long shifts. I don't particularly enjoy travelling on a bus, let alone being confined to one all day as my place of work. Seems to me about the only attractive thing about it would be the above average pay.

Yeah my first time alone on the Q train last week (went to NYC for a little vacation, which was a stupid idea. What a trash heap that city is.) I had some crazy street punk up in my face for no reason. He was walking up and down the train talking to nobody. Odd thing was, the guy was about 6" shorter than me and about twice my age. He didn't reek of booze, so he must have been crazy.

 

[Deepdale]

Yeah my first time alone on the Q train last week (went to NYC for a little vacation, which was a stupid idea. What a trash heap that city is.) I had some crazy street punk up in my face for no reason. He was walking up and down the train talking to nobody. Odd thing was, the guy was about 6" shorter than me and about twice my age. He didn't reek of booze, so he must have been crazy.

If I had a nickel for every nut job I encountered over the past 25 years, I would undoubtedly own a pretty island in the Caribbean. Not a day passes without having to endure the aggressive panhandlers. I do agree with you about the city having a major problem with the lack of cleanliness ... trash receptacles routinely overflow onto sidewalks and people toss stuff all over the place. And I do not even want to get started with the disgusting sights as one looks down at the subway tracks.

 

[Applespider]

I doubt there is a city in the world more dependant on public transportation.

London's pretty dependent on public transportation too; over 80% of its commuters use it which is why London Underground strikes are darned disruptive too and seem to happen every couple of years.

The good thing is that in London, so far, the strikes tend to be called by the RMT union so they only affect the Tube, meaning that the buses and overland trains still run. You should see the bus queues on Tube strike days; carnage.

The entire system did shut down after the London Tube bombings. No tubes, no buses and no trains in central London; Lots of people walking to zone 2 to try to get back to the suburbs.

 

[eclipse525]

The best jobs go to the best people, and if you want the best people you're going to treat them well or else they'll look for other jobs. Capitalism works both ways, and jobs are products people buy just like anything else.

Yes and No. Although the best jobs go to the best people, PEOPLE for the most part are complacent. It's amazing how much abuse one will take once you are comfortable in your job. You can tell most people that they are fired and their last day is at the end of the month and they will only start looking for a job THE DAY THEY LEAVE. The sad part this is the average person. Just remember the abuse from companies now a days isn't so blatant. They are very smart and do everything in small steps, so you don't notice right away. As much as I hate to say it, people need help from there own lazy/complacent selves. Shame.

~e

 

[Lyle]

I do agree with you about the city having a major problem with the lack of cleanliness ... trash receptacles routinely overflow onto sidewalks and people toss stuff all over the place.

We were up there last week and, as we were walking down 5th, my wife stepped around a used condom she saw on the sidewalk.

It wasn't until later that day, when we stopped to sit down and eat and reflect on the day, that we both wondered: Exactly how did a used condom end up at that particular location? I mean, don't you just throw it away when you're done with it? Was its owner carrying it around the streets of Manhattan and happened to lose hold of it?

 

[Deepdale]

We were up there last week and, as we were walking down 5th, my wife stepped around a used condom she saw on the sidewalk. ... Was its owner carrying it around the streets of Manhattan and happened to lose hold of it?

Two people might have had sex in public very late at night and discarded it on the street. In NYC anything is possible.

 

[MongoTheGeek]

Compared to the average salary in Manhattan ($105,300 per year), salaries for Manhattan's TWU workers are well below average.

Looking at that site though they get paid double the average from Brooklyn and Staten Island where I imagine most of them live.

We were up there last week and, as we were walking down 5th, my wife stepped around a used condom she saw on the sidewalk.

It wasn't until later that day, when we stopped to sit down and eat and reflect on the day, that we both wondered: Exactly how did a used condom end up at that particular location? I mean, don't you just throw it away when you're done with it? Was its owner carrying it around the streets of Manhattan and happened to lose hold of it?

Tossed out of a parked car is another possibility.

As for how clean or dirty NYC is I don't think its worse than many other cities. Better than Philly, Baltimore and Boston. Worse than San Francisco. Pan Handlers were worse in SF though.

 

[darkwing]

If I had a nickel for every nut job I encountered over the past 25 years, I would undoubtedly own a pretty island in the Caribbean. Not a day passes without having to endure the aggressive panhandlers. I do agree with you about the city having a major problem with the lack of cleanliness ... trash receptacles routinely overflow onto sidewalks and people toss stuff all over the place. And I do not even want to get started with the disgusting sights as one looks down at the subway tracks.

I have seen mice in the tracks, but I haven't seen one of your famous rats yet.