NYC Bus Strike

[darkwing]

Yes and No. Although the best jobs go to the best people, PEOPLE for the most part are complacent. It's amazing how much abuse one will take once you are comfortable in your job. You can tell most people that they are fired and their last day is at the end of the month and they will only start looking for a job THE DAY THEY LEAVE. The sad part this is the average person. Just remember the abuse from companies now a days isn't so blatant. They are very smart and do everything in small steps, so you don't notice right away. As much as I hate to say it, people need help from there own lazy/complacent selves. Shame.

~e

So what your saying is that people shouldn't be trusted to take responsibility for themselves and do what's right for them? Nobody is forcing them to stay in a job. If they're too lazy to do something about a job they don't like, it's their problem. It's also their choice. Choice is a good thing.

 

[Deepdale]

I have seen mice in the tracks, but I haven't seen one of your famous rats yet.

There are so many of them ... you really lucked out.

 

[EricNau]

Most teachers care more about social justice than pay. Lucky for you, because if you really want to advocate that teachers quit if they aren't satisfied with their pay, well, say goodbye to American public education! Teacher's unions protect far more than they harm (even though taxpayers are outraged when teachers ask for a 1.5% raise -- something we didn't get for this academic year).

I won't disagree with you to a point, and emotionally I can undestand your position of I would argue, though, that's it's not a very well thought-out position, in either a historical or a contemporary context.

I'm still looking for someone to provide a link in this thread to the union demands. I'm reading a lot of hearsay, and a lot of emotionally charged stuff, but I'm not getting many facts.

I see your point, and it is a good one, and I'm starting to think that Unions are different on opposite sides of the US. Here in California, the unions are practically running the state. How the unions say to vote, is the way everybody does. ...And it's driving me crazy.

The few people that I have talked to don't even agree with their union, but can't do much about it. I was talking to a nurse, who was saying the demands on the nursing union is just because the nurses are getting lazy.

We have a major budget problem in CA, and every single union is fighting the gov for more money. This past year the gov spend a record amount of education, and that union still wasn't happy. ...And recently I've seen so many political ads from unions I want to scream! AHhhhhh!

 

[mrzeve]

The fines mean nothing. One of the terms and conditions that the Union is going to make the other party agree with is going to be that they will cover all fees if they want them to return to work, along with meeting their other demands.

 

[MongoTheGeek]

The fines mean nothing. One of the terms and conditions that the Union is going to make the other party agree with is going to be that they will cover all fees if they want them to return to work, along with meeting their other demands.

If I were running the MTA that would be the last thing I give them. Thats like doing a Kevin Bacon, grabbing your ankles and saying "Thank you sir, may I please have another."

Unfortunately you're right. That would be their first demand.

 

[thedude110]

If they didn't start people with a high enough wage, nobody would teach there. They'd have to raise the pay to get teachers. That's how the free market works.

Don't even get me started on public employee pensions. It's easy to promise that when your revenue comes from something akin to pointing a gun at someone and demanding more of their money.

So, I should just let this go. But I can't do it.

Teaching has very little to do with the free market. Good teachers go where they're needed, not where they're going to get paid the most. If your argument held true, all good teachers would be in rich suburbs or trying to get into rich suburbs. Many of my colleagues are outstanding teachers working for social change in an urban district. We're awfully glad to have a union to stand up for us while we're busy trying to teach 15 year olds how to read.

More directly responding to your claim -- they DON'T start teachers at a high enough wage in Providence. Yet good teachers start their careers here, and many stay in the district for long periods of time.

Which brings me to your second point:

The best jobs go to the best people

This seems really idealistic to me. The best jobs go to people with the most opportunity -- whether that opportunity comes in the form of good connections or a college degree. Most of the students I work with will never be able to afford to go to college, but they're as fit as anyone to start a business, to run a business, to be a CEO. They're among the "best people," but they'll never get the best jobs. I wish for, and work for, an equal playing field. But we don't have one yet.

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

The unions had better watch out, In the UK a lot of Poles are coming over to work as Drivers and there happy making 4X the average Polish salary.

I work with a lot of Poles, they graft well.

To be honest this is managements attitude towards workers. Many of in the "service" sector are seeing raises of just 3% a year; just enough to cover inflation.

Based on one report that I saw, MTA had a billion $ surplus recently.

I hate people that go on strike; and I hate the unions that recommend it. In fact, I hate ALL unions!

Easy enough to say, but you did not say whether you are "management" or or the "working class" in your statement. Sure unions are "greedy" at times. But unions do have some valid points in the true needs of those they represent.

I hear you. My heart just breaks for basically unskilled workers making $55-$70K with a pension and health benefits for life. Bloomberg should pull a Reagan and fire all their asses.

the news copy I saw said that the average wages were between $35-55K a year. What about the blood thirsty leaches that try to sell over priced extended warranties on cars <grin>

 

[darkwing]

So, I should just let this go. But I can't do it.

Teaching has very little to do with the free market. Good teachers go where they're needed, not where they're going to get paid the most. If your argument held true, all good teachers would be in rich suburbs or trying to get into rich suburbs. Many of my colleagues are outstanding teachers working for social change in an urban district. We're awfully glad to have a union to stand up for us while we're busy trying to teach 15 year olds how to read.

More directly responding to your claim -- they DON'T start teachers at a high enough wage in Providence. Yet good teachers start their careers here, and many stay in the district for long periods of time.

If teachers go where they're their needed and not where pay is the best, then I guess they don't care about money therefore they don't need a union fighting for more money.

Which brings me to your second point:


This seems really idealistic to me. The best jobs go to people with the most opportunity -- whether that opportunity comes in the form of good connections or a college degree. Most of the students I work with will never be able to afford to go to college, but they're as fit as anyone to start a business, to run a business, to be a CEO. They're among the "best people," but they'll never get the best jobs. I wish for, and work for, an equal playing field. But we don't have one yet.

BS. My friend Sam is black, and grew up outside of Cleveland. He worked 2 jobs to pay his way through college and now is an engineer and working on a masters in math. He had nothing when he was a kid. Dirt poor family in the ghetto. Well, he was better than that. Now that's a level playing field. It's even tilted in the disadvantaged's favor now due to the fact that anyone can get student loans.

I agree that a college degree doesn't always mean the best people. I'm the best software guy at my company and only got my degree last summer after working there 7 years. However, it does say something about character.

I agree it might be easier for some, but anyone can make it with enough hard work and dedication. That's the beauty of this country. Opportunity. Same with the free market.

 

[EricNau]

Easy enough to say, but you did not say whether you are "management" or or the "working class" in your statement. Sure unions are "greedy" at times. But unions do have some valid points in the true needs of those they represent.

Neither. I'm a student. You're probably thinking that means I have no experience in the "real world," and that may be true, but I can still observe what's going on.
-In NYC a Public Transportation Union felt it was above the laws and the government, therefore they went on strike. Now millions of workers are stranded and the entire city's economy is suffering.
Don't you see how powerful Unions feel they are? It is illegal for Public Transit workers to go on strike, they don't care. They should all be fired, they are breaking the law.

 

[EricNau]

For those who like unions, find out what this union is doing to NYC.
All quotes are taken from Wikipedia. Link to Article

• According to Mayor Michael Bloomberg, the city stands to lose $1.6 billion USD during its first week
• Emergency services response time could be slowed significantly due to increased traffic congestion, possibly creating a danger to life.
• In anticipation of exceptional traffic volumes, an emergency traffic plan has been put into effect. Weekdays from 5 a.m. to 11 a.m., Manhattan south of 96th street, as well as all MTA tunnels and bridges, are subject to HOV4 restrictions; that is, vehicles must contain a minimum of four passengers, and commercial trucks and vans are prohibited.
• Public schools are starting two hours later than usual, with school bus pickup times also two hours later than normal. Some private schools are having no school. Major universities have provided extended shuttle service to students, faculty and staff.
  

Thank you Unions.

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

Neither. I'm a student. You're probably thinking that means I have no experience in the "real world," and that may be true, but I can still observe what's going on.
-In NYC a Public Transportation Union felt it was above the laws and the government, therefore they went on strike. Now millions of workers are stranded and the entire city's economy is suffering.
Don't you see how powerful Unions feel they are? It is illegal for Public Transit workers to go on strike, they don't care. They should all be fired, they are breaking the law.

This is where we may differ. Just because there is law, that does not make the law legal. While I can respect laws that have the public good at heart, these laws should not trump the collective bargaining position of the Unions.

Simply said, if we are to allow unions - then these unions need to be allowed to strike. Otherwise, with out some "penalty" like a strike - there is little reason for a union.

Strikes are used by unions to get management to come to grips with the real issues that face the workers. And in this case the MTA has a $1BILLION US surplus., and they want to take away retirement benefits.

I hope that your future jobs are are well protected. I also hope that they are protected legally, so as to not run afoul of the "LAW".

Based on what you have said, you may be too young to remember that the hardships faced by the masses during strikes can benefit those that give us "service".

And I say that ALL citizens in the US should be required to work a service job and find housing, food, and clothes at those wages.

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

For those who like unions, find out what this union is doing to NYC.
All quotes are taken from Wikipedia. Link to Article

• According to Mayor Michael Bloomberg, the city stands to lose $1.6 billion USD during its first week
• Emergency services response time could be slowed significantly due to increased traffic congestion, possibly creating a danger to life.
• In anticipation of exceptional traffic volumes, an emergency traffic plan has been put into effect. Weekdays from 5 a.m. to 11 a.m., Manhattan south of 96th street, as well as all MTA tunnels and bridges, are subject to HOV4 restrictions; that is, vehicles must contain a minimum of four passengers, and commercial trucks and vans are prohibited.
• Public schools are starting two hours later than usual, with school bus pickup times also two hours later than normal. Some private schools are having no school. Major universities have provided extended shuttle service to students, faculty and staff.
  

Thank you Unions.

As a historical note, the ATC strike back in the Reagan years was in part about sick time. Did you know that common OTC medications for a cold made ATC staff ineligible to work?

From what I understand this MTA strike was centered on retirement benefits. And if you look at the average wages paid, verses the actual cost of living in the NYC area - there is a big disconnect.

The strike was all about bringing awareness about what it takes for the people that bring everyday services to many that have the big homes and big cars back home to have a reasonable chance at the "American Pie".

Your quotes did not include the opposite view. What about the $1BUS surplus that the MTA faces? What about the $35-55K that the average worker for the MTA earns, compared to the ever increasing cost of housing? What about the environmental hazards these workers face every day?

For you may be a student, but you seem to sound like one that is on the "fast track" to have all that the greed of this nation can give you. Either that, you have not seen what it truly costs those of us that serve and sell to you each day to try and even make a modest living in.

 

[EricNau]

This is where we may differ. Just because there is law, that does not make the law legal. While I can respect laws that have the public good at heart, these laws should not trump the collective bargaining position of the Unions.

Simply said, if we are to allow unions - then these unions need to be allowed to strike. Otherwise, with out some "penalty" like a strike - there is little reason for a union.

Strikes are used by unions to get management to come to grips with the real issues that face the workers. And in this case the MTA has a $1BILLION US surplus., and they want to take away retirement benefits.

I hope that your future jobs are are well protected. I also hope that they are protected legally, so as to not run afoul of the "LAW".

Based on what you have said, you may be too young to remember that the hardships faced by the masses during strikes can benefit those that give us "service".

And I say that ALL citizens in the US should be required to work a service job and find housing, food, and clothes at those wages.

There is a very good reason for that law; public safety. It's the same reason you can't play with firecrackers, or you can't Drink & Drive, it is to protect YOU.

 

[EricNau]

As a historical note, the ATC strike back in the Reagan years was in part about sick time. Did you know that common OTC medications for a cold made ATC staff ineligible to work?

From what I understand this MTA strike was centered on retirement benefits. And if you look at the average wages paid, verses the actual cost of living in the NYC area - there is a big disconnect.

The strike was all about bringing awareness about what it takes for the people that bring everyday services to many that have the big homes and big cars back home to have a reasonable chance at the "American Pie".

Your quotes did not include the opposite view. What about the $1BUS surplus that the MTA faces? What about the $35-55K that the average worker for the MTA earns, compared to the ever increasing cost of housing? What about the environmental hazards these workers face every day?

For you may be a student, but you seem to sound like one that is on the "fast track" to have all that the greed of this nation can give you. Either that, you have not seen what it truly costs those of us that serve and sell to you each day to try and even make a modest living in.

What about the idea that if you don't like your job of driving a bus, you can quit and find a better job? There would be a lot of people that are just as qualified, and would love that pay.

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

What about the idea that if you don't like your job of driving a bus, you can quit and find a better job? There would be a lot of people that are just as qualified, and would love that pay.

Sure sounds like "I have mine, now you get yours".

I just wish we had the idea of a "national strike" here in the US. Just who would clean your homes, who would sell you the your food, who would get you to school or work on mass transit.

For a variety of reasons not everyone can earn six figure incomes. With many area homes costing $300K , how do the people that collect your subway fares, opr drive the subway trains have a chance at a decent life? How can they be a part of the American Dream of owning a home?

The attitude that you have that that some would love "that pay" sickens me. For you may not have any true sense of what it costs to have a meaningful life for those in the service sector in major cities here in the US.

 

[Deepdale]

For a variety of reasons not everyone can earn six figure incomes. With many area homes costing $300K , how do the people that collect your subway fares, opr drive the subway trains have a chance at a decent life? How can they be a part of the American Dream of owning a home?

That dream long since became a nightmare for many when the out-of-control housing market went into high gear. In a lot of areas in NYC and Long Island, one would be lucky to have indoor plumbing included in a home with a price of $300K. Real estate here is insane.

 

[EricNau]

That dream long since became a nightmare for many when the out-of-control housing market went into high gear. In a lot of areas in NYC and Long Island, one would be lucky to have indoor plumbing included in a home with a price of $300K. Real estate here is insane.

Real estate everywhere in America is insane.

 

[Deepdale]

Real estate everywhere in America is insane.

That is a truism, but it would be refreshing to deal with a different type of madness aside from what a person encounters in the New York area. A comparably sized home in the suburbs of Ohio would cost one-third of what it would be here.

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

That dream long since became a nightmare for many when the out-of-control housing market went into high gear. In a lot of areas in NYC and Long Island, one would be lucky to have indoor plumbing included in a home with a price of $300K. Real estate here is insane.

I should have added a "plus" to my remarks.

Just as a note, after being forced to sell my TH for debts from my ex, I am now living in an apartment. Even with the profits from the sale of the TH, in order to live as a single person - I would be forced to live in areas that my life each and every day would be in danger.

I work "retail" for a company that pays pretty well. But in the last few years it is harder to make it by on the wages alone. Between 35 to 50% of my take home is for rent. I am one of the lucky ones that have been able to score an affordable rent close to work. But as time passes I am not sure that I will be able to hang on.

Sorry for the rant, but people with the incomes want the service - as long as they don't have to live close to those that provide the service.

 

[Deepdale]

Sorry for the rant, but people with the incomes want the service - as long as they don't have to live close to those that provide the service.

Your opinion is appreciated. There is merit to the point above and it is representative in American society even though acknowledging it is something not openly done.