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Occam's razor, the bumper, and the iPhone 4 - A theory...
- Thread starter br0adband
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I stopped reading at that part where you were enamored with your own pseudo intellect...aka, the beginning. I own an iphone four and there is a point I'm sure, but really...this long to say it was a design flaw fixed..cmon.
Again, I'm not saying I disagree, but this post is writing for the sake of seeing your writing.
Again, I'm not saying I disagree, but this post is writing for the sake of seeing your writing.
I'm not entirely convinced it is a design flaw.
The biggest reason is for the fact that the drop in signal bars seems to be location specific. All instances are true for me in different locations:
A) I have 5 bars, and while "death gripping" the phone I will either see no drop in bars or only 2 bars while maintaining unchanged data speeds and call reception.
B) I have 5 bars and while "death gripping", the signal drops to no bars, but retains call reception, although data speeds are severely affected.
C) I have 2 bars and while "death gripping", drops the signal to no bars, but am still able to retain a call, although data speeds are affected.
D) I have 3 bars, and "death gripping" causes no drop in bars nor affects data speeds.
E) In one location I was able to "Death grip" the phone and make it drop from 3 bars down to "searching..."
So...what can we gather from this? It tells ME that it is location specific. So what on earth could possibly change from location to location? The frequency? I'd be curious to know.
Something like this could be software or baseband related, no?
The biggest reason is for the fact that the drop in signal bars seems to be location specific. All instances are true for me in different locations:
A) I have 5 bars, and while "death gripping" the phone I will either see no drop in bars or only 2 bars while maintaining unchanged data speeds and call reception.
B) I have 5 bars and while "death gripping", the signal drops to no bars, but retains call reception, although data speeds are severely affected.
C) I have 2 bars and while "death gripping", drops the signal to no bars, but am still able to retain a call, although data speeds are affected.
D) I have 3 bars, and "death gripping" causes no drop in bars nor affects data speeds.
E) In one location I was able to "Death grip" the phone and make it drop from 3 bars down to "searching..."
So...what can we gather from this? It tells ME that it is location specific. So what on earth could possibly change from location to location? The frequency? I'd be curious to know.
Something like this could be software or baseband related, no?
probably the main reason why Steve says its a non-issue, its purely software related (for the most part). if there is zero change in download speed then really what else do you have to worry about?
Bravo, br0adband! You've become a bit of a rockstar regarding the attenuation issues on this forum. Let me know if I should go into more detail in this letter to Apple.
I don't quite understand the problem here. Apple have issued a statement saying that it's a software issue and it will be fixed within a couple of weeks. Okay, I get that the "grip of death" can affect reception somewhat but it's not like Apple can make their software check how you're holding the phone and show appropriate number of bars. So if the update doesn't resolve the problem, we will notice.
I think we need to give Apple, the manufacturer of the product, the people who know it best, a chance to fix this.
I think we need to give Apple, the manufacturer of the product, the people who know it best, a chance to fix this.
I never hold the iPhone with my left hand. That being said, in landscape I always cover the gap. That being said, I agree with the 7000 words you've written here.
Not trying to lecture you but the less words you use, the better, for a couple different reasons, the biggest of which is, it makes it easy to read.
Your post has a lot of unnecessarily things that people don't need to know and which I personally skipped.
If you don't understand the problem, congratulations, you're exactly the kind of person Apple targeted that press release at.
If Apple truly knew best about their own product, then the iPhone 4 wouldn't have the issue(s) it's having, nor would they finally come out (even despite it being misdirection and entirely deceptive from start to finish) and say "Oh, crap, by the way, for the past 3 years or so, every iPhone has been defective because they're not reporting the actual signal strength correctly.
Not one iPhone - meaning a particular model - but all of them in the last 3 years since they were first introduced. That's fairly significant, I'd say. Not one, all.
That admission isn't exactly an admission, however - it's misdirection away from the real problems (the antenna design which, I and many many others believe, is fatally flawed from the start). The press release is an attempt to curry favor by fessing up to something that's realistically a non-issue currently but making it seem like it's been a big issue since the iPhones first appeared.
"Sorry, but there's nothing wrong with the iPhone 4. Oh, well, except this little issue that's been plaguing every iPhone ever made, that is, but we'll fix it, when we get around to it."
I mean, 3 years wasn't enough time? Countless tests done all over the place, on hundreds if not thousands of prototypes, for each model of the iPhone?
The press release makes it sound like Apple just discovered this, as if our complaints - the many thousands upon thousands being received 24/7 since the iPhone 4 came out - are the first they've ever heard of it.
And suddenly they need "a few weeks" to figure out how to best solve it?
Please, we truly aren't that stupid, Mr. Jobs. Really, we're not.
By "fatally flawed" do you mean the phone doesn't work?If you don't understand the problem, congratulations, you're exactly the kind of person Apple targeted that press release at.
If Apple truly knew best about their own product, then the iPhone 4 wouldn't have the issue(s) it's having, nor would they finally come out (even despite it being misdirection and entirely deceptive from start to finish) and say "Oh, crap, by the way, for the past 3 years or so, every iPhone has been defective because they're not reporting the actual signal strength correctly.
Not one iPhone - meaning a particular model - but all of them in the last 3 years since they were first introduced. That's fairly significant, I'd say. Not one, all.
That admission isn't exactly an admission, however - it's misdirection away from the real problems (the antenna design which, I and many many others believe, is fatally flawed from the start). The press release is an attempt to curry favor by fessing up to something that's realistically a non-issue currently but making it seem like it's been a big issue since the iPhones first appeared.
"Sorry, but there's nothing wrong with the iPhone 4. Oh, well, except this little issue that's been plaguing every iPhone ever made, that is, but we'll fix it, when we get around to it."
I mean, 3 years wasn't enough time? Countless tests done all over the place, on hundreds if not thousands of prototypes, for each model of the iPhone?
The press release makes it sound like Apple just discovered this, as if our complaints - the many thousands upon thousands being received 24/7 since the iPhone 4 came out - are the first they've ever heard of it.
And suddenly they need "a few weeks" to figure out how to best solve it?
Please, we truly aren't that stupid, Mr. Jobs. Really, we're not.
You stated ALL iPHONE 4's suffer from this "fatal flaw"...
There have been many (including my own) iPhone 4's reported here that seem to work just fine and do not drop any calls or any data connections...how could it be "fatally flawed"?
I understand there is a problem with some people losing connection when shorting the antenna with their hand (either purposely or not) but to say something is "fatally flawed" would mean it just does not work...AT ALL...
Lecture on, my good fellow. It's a discussion forum, not someplace to drop one-liners that don't get any points across at all.
I prefer people learn things, personally, always have. Sure it would be easy to say "The iPhone 4 is borked, since inception" and move along but then people on various sides would either say "You're an idiot, it works fine" or "Back up your claims" etc.
So I take the offensive initiative and state everything I can related to my theory, start to finish, and a lot of stuff thrown in for good measure. I'd prefer you get too much info than not enough. If you decided to skip over parts you think you don't need to know, that's fine - just don't come back later on saying I never covered this or that if you ever do.
I got no beef with people saying I'm wrong as long as they can back up their side of it or prove me wrong with facts, etc. I got a big beef with people that just say "oh shut up" or "return the phone" 'cause nothing happens that way.
I have an iPhone 4, hence I'm an iPhone 4 owner. What I choose to do with the phone itself is my business, and I'll keep it till Apple releases this so-called "fix" of theirs, then I'll make a decision afterward on what to do with it, whenever that "fix" appears.
By "fatally flawed" do you mean the phone doesn't work?
You stated ALL iPHONE 4's suffer from this "fatal flaw"...
There have been many (including my own) iPhone 4's reported here that seem to work just fine and do not drop any calls or any data connections...how could it be "fatally flawed"?
You're taking it out of context, so here's what you're not quoting:
br0adband said:
It's in parentheses for a reason...
The flaw that Apple has fessed up to (albeit deceptively) is the inaccurate signal reporting; my belief that the antenna design is wrong from the start is what I profess to be the fatal flaw - I'm not saying the signal issue that Apple is trying to get everyone to focus on directly is fatal.
All iPhone 4's do suffer from the signal display issue - that's why the press release exists. It affects every single iPhone 4 regardless of whether someone notices it in their usage or not; the "fix" will be released and expected to be installed on every iPhone 4 when it is, hence it's for every iPhone 4.
Two different things, entirely. Just needs to be clarified...
But just for the record: if I believe - I really do - that the antenna design is a flawed, a fatal one, and since every iPhone 4 is made with the same antenna design, then my believe applies to that and becomes what I say in my sig: I believe the iPhone 4 is defective because of its design.
At least Apple fessed up to something - I didn't expect the misdirection all the way back on every iPhone ever made but, they're pretty desperate right now, gotta spin this any which way they can even if it means putting some blame on all the past "obsolete" technology to some degree - which takes the focus off the iPhone 4...
Perhaps "poorly designed" or even just "seriously flawed" might be more accurate..."fatal" is a bit much...the phone (and thus the antenna design) works, just perhaps not to your liking
I don't think Apple will have too much to worry about unless DROVES of people start lining up to return the phones because they are actually dropping calls, not just useless analog signal bars, in "real world use"...
that so far, doesn't seem to be the case with the nearly 2,000,000 iPhone 4's already in the market...
Again, I'm not saying there isn't a "flaw" in the antenna design, but unless it is causing widespread call/data dropping, people are not going to return the phones
Lecture on, my good fellow. It's a discussion forum, not someplace to drop one-liners that don't get any points across at all.
I prefer people learn things, personally, always have. Sure it would be easy to say "The iPhone 4 is borked, since inception" and move along but then people on various sides would either say "You're an idiot, it works fine" or "Back up your claims" etc.
So I take the offensive initiative and state everything I can related to my theory, start to finish, and a lot of stuff thrown in for good measure. I'd prefer you get too much info than not enough. If you decided to skip over parts you think you don't need to know, that's fine - just don't come back later on saying I never covered this or that if you ever do.
I got no beef with people saying I'm wrong as long as they can back up their side of it or prove me wrong with facts, etc. I got a big beef with people that just say "oh shut up" or "return the phone" 'cause nothing happens that way.
I have an iPhone 4, hence I'm an iPhone 4 owner. What I choose to do with the phone itself is my business, and I'll keep it till Apple releases this so-called "fix" of theirs, then I'll make a decision afterward on what to do with it, whenever that "fix" appears.
Here is the problem. You say a lot of redundant things and draw out your sentences to the point where it dilutes your message. Thus your point doesn't get across and since people aren't listening to you, then they can't be learning.
In your original post, everything before "Here's what I believe as of right now:" is manginess and could be cut with absolutely no ill effect.
You need to be more like a movie director and trim the fat.
Okay lecture over, you can do whatever you want but if a good number of people are telling you the samething, that should be a sign that there is a problem
The mere handful (that's meant to convey the number of fingers on one hand, mind you) of people with that point of view pale in comparison to the sheer number of PMs and thank you's I've received so, carry on.
Ronnoco:
I hold my iPhone 4, it doesn't work as a phone, 100% of the time, that's fatal. If yours works, or those of others, wonderful for you, let's hope nothing does affect your usage. Mine and others... completely different story altogether.
Is my case extreme? Of course it is, but I'm not alone. It does everything as advertised, and I've noted no other issues at all, really - no green tint crap, no proximity sensor issues, the flash works, the camera/video recording works, but it doesn't work as a phone.
It's a cell phone, and it doesn't work as a cell phone. Wouldn't you consider that a fatal flaw?
Ronnoco:
I hold my iPhone 4, it doesn't work as a phone, 100% of the time, that's fatal. If yours works, or those of others, wonderful for you, let's hope nothing does affect your usage. Mine and others... completely different story altogether.
Is my case extreme? Of course it is, but I'm not alone. It does everything as advertised, and I've noted no other issues at all, really - no green tint crap, no proximity sensor issues, the flash works, the camera/video recording works, but it doesn't work as a phone.
It's a cell phone, and it doesn't work as a cell phone. Wouldn't you consider that a fatal flaw?
I would in fact consider that a "fatal flaw"...but I would NOT say then that EVERY iPhone suffers from this "fatal flaw" as clearly, some do not...The mere handful (that's meant to convey the number of fingers on one hand, mind you) of people with that point of view pale in comparison to the sheer number of PMs and thank you's I've received so, carry on.
Ronnoco:
I hold my iPhone 4, it doesn't work as a phone, 100% of the time, that's fatal. If yours works, or those of others, wonderful for you, let's hope nothing does affect your usage. Mine and others... completely different story altogether.
Is my case extreme? Of course it is, but I'm not alone. It does everything as advertised, and I've noted no other issues at all, really - no green tint crap, no proximity sensor issues, the flash works, the camera/video recording works, but it doesn't work as a phone.
It's a cell phone, and it doesn't work as a cell phone. Wouldn't you consider that a fatal flaw?
I would in fact consider that a "fatal flaw"...but I would NOT say then that EVERY iPhone suffers from this "fatal flaw" as clearly, some do not...
"As a scientist, I must concede that point..."
Never said they ALL suffer from it, just that they ALL have it. Even 2 iPhone 4's that come off the assembly line/manufacturing process in sequence - in fact they'd potentially have serial numbers that are 1 digit apart - aren't precisely the same; it's impossible to perfectly duplicate anything like that, so technically they're not all the same, either, but but but...
We're getting into semantics here, and someone in another thread tried to offer up similar lines of reasoning about the issues that none of them are real and they don't exist for anyone and those of us reporting problems are simply insane, and I said "Not every human being has cancer. Does that mean cancer doesn't exist?" or words to that effect.
We both have our points of view... right?
Please see my experience.
heh. what do you know. at least it didnt stop completely
as i said before, i dont see it as a massive issue - as this will happen with all mobile devices, will it not? p.s. thanks for your LOVELY response before. really appreciate your sincerity.
p.s.s your link from the p.s. mentioned thread doesnt work. fix.
"As a scientist, I must concede that point..."
Never said they ALL suffer from it, just that they ALL have it. Even 2 iPhone 4's that come off the assembly line/manufacturing process in sequence - in fact they'd potentially have serial numbers that are 1 digit apart - aren't precisely the same; it's impossible to perfectly duplicate anything like that, so technically they're not all the same, either, but but but...
We're getting into semantics here, and someone in another thread tried to offer up similar lines of reasoning about the issues that none of them are real and they don't exist for anyone and those of us reporting problems are simply insane, and I said "Not every human being has cancer. Does that mean cancer doesn't exist?" or words to that effect.
We both have our points of view... right?
I have no problem with your analysis of, or theory about the iP4's antenna issue as there clearly is an issue and some phones suffer from it more than others. I just had a problem with your choice of words as I believe it adds to the overhyped hysteria...
I can totally accept "poorly designed" or "technically flawed" but again, "fatally flawed" smacks of sensationalism and does a disservice to your otherwise well written "thesis"...
I have no problem with your analysis of, or theory about the iP4's antenna issue as there clearly is an issue and some phones suffer from it more than others. I just had a problem with your choice of words as I believe it adds to the overhyped hysteria...
I can totally accept "poorly designed" or "technically flawed" but again, "fatally flawed" smacks of sensationalism and does a disservice to your otherwise well written "thesis"...
Ok, then how about this: "Its' freakin' borked."
Done.
First, you lack communication skills. Completely. You don't send a message, you write a freaking short novel from which the message has to be extracted with forceps from all the irrelevant stuff.
You make three points:
1) Phone antennae work through microwaves.
2) Organic materials absorb microwaves (lot to discuss there)
3) When you touch the antenna with your (organic) hand, you attenuate the signal.
Well, regardless of the stupid and very obvious Occam's razor, the observed data does not fit with your model. Most people, if not all, get the signal reduced the most when bridging both antennae, sometimes even with a coin, with no need for organic contact. Actually, if it was true what you say, any contact with the antenna in any point, should cause exactly the same effect and that is not happening. Several real experts in antennae have already given an explanation based on the fact that bridging the antennae changes the efective length ant that affects resonance or whatever (I'm not an expert myself). That fits with their proposed theory and not with yours.
Full stop.
You make three points:
1) Phone antennae work through microwaves.
2) Organic materials absorb microwaves (lot to discuss there)
3) When you touch the antenna with your (organic) hand, you attenuate the signal.
Well, regardless of the stupid and very obvious Occam's razor, the observed data does not fit with your model. Most people, if not all, get the signal reduced the most when bridging both antennae, sometimes even with a coin, with no need for organic contact. Actually, if it was true what you say, any contact with the antenna in any point, should cause exactly the same effect and that is not happening. Several real experts in antennae have already given an explanation based on the fact that bridging the antennae changes the efective length ant that affects resonance or whatever (I'm not an expert myself). That fits with their proposed theory and not with yours.
Full stop.
Yah, I covered all that, thanks.
And it's antennas, not antennae. And the fact remains: the attenuation is caused by contact with the antenna - the more contact you create (by increasing the surface area in contact with skin, gripping tighter, etc) the more attenuation you create. It's the natural capacitance of the skin that is a big part of this: touch it someplace with a fingertip, you get some attenuation (measurable). Touch it with two, you get more, touch it with three, even more. Touch it with an entire palm on one side of the phone - a huge amount of contact - you get it... well, maybe you don't, I wonder. The bridging issue is a secondary problem, not the primary one.
Pretty simple stuff, really, but people need things explained more often than not. Just saying "touching the antenna is causing the problem(s)" (since this is the first cellular telephone in history where the user has that capability as part of the native design, aka the fatal flaw I mentioned above) isn't enough because then people will want to know WHY touching the antenna is causing the problem(s).
So I don't have a degree in journalism or literature, sue me. More people "get it" now than before I made this thread, so that's a positive thing. Touching the cellular antenna does one thing, bridging it with the Wi-Fi/GPS/Bluetooth one, does something else.
tt's two different things unfortunately, and most people (yourself included) keep missing that crucial aspect of this fiasco.
But thanks for playing!!!
And it's antennas, not antennae. And the fact remains: the attenuation is caused by contact with the antenna - the more contact you create (by increasing the surface area in contact with skin, gripping tighter, etc) the more attenuation you create. It's the natural capacitance of the skin that is a big part of this: touch it someplace with a fingertip, you get some attenuation (measurable). Touch it with two, you get more, touch it with three, even more. Touch it with an entire palm on one side of the phone - a huge amount of contact - you get it... well, maybe you don't, I wonder. The bridging issue is a secondary problem, not the primary one.
Pretty simple stuff, really, but people need things explained more often than not. Just saying "touching the antenna is causing the problem(s)" (since this is the first cellular telephone in history where the user has that capability as part of the native design, aka the fatal flaw I mentioned above) isn't enough because then people will want to know WHY touching the antenna is causing the problem(s).
So I don't have a degree in journalism or literature, sue me. More people "get it" now than before I made this thread, so that's a positive thing. Touching the cellular antenna does one thing, bridging it with the Wi-Fi/GPS/Bluetooth one, does something else.
tt's two different things unfortunately, and most people (yourself included) keep missing that crucial aspect of this fiasco.
But thanks for playing!!!
heh. what do you know. at least it didnt stop completely
p.s. thanks for your LOVELY response before. really appreciate your sincerity.
p.s.s your link from the p.s. mentioned thread doesnt work. fix.
Fixed.