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Occam's razor, the bumper, and the iPhone 4 - A theory...

If you were to get an incase slide would this also solve the problem?

I wonder if apple didnt notice this problem in testing because they always had those fake 3gs covers over them
 
br0adband said:
As of this post, 3 other companies that I've noted are now producing "bumper" cases/protectors. For whatever reason nobody else had one ready to go on the day of release except Apple is beyond me, but I would guess/speculate/whatever that since the antenna issues and that metal band are pulling so much focus that those companies are now "coming outta the woodwork" with bumpers left and right. :)

Pure speculation on that one since designing and making such a product does take a modicum of time but, on the day of release, nobody else had 'em, nobody else mentioned 'em, nobody else was taking orders for 'em... except Apple.
Click to expand...

Uncanny isn't it? It's almost as if apple had early access to the design... :rolleyes:
 
br0adband said:
I should note that now the iPhone 4 is "entrenched," the original statement that Apple is/was the only company making a "bumper" type case/protector needs to be amended (but I'm not going to edit the original post at all as I said I wouldn't).

As of this post, 3 other companies that I've noted are now producing "bumper" cases/protectors. For whatever reason nobody else had one ready to go on the day of release except Apple is beyond me, but I would guess/speculate/whatever that since the antenna issues and that metal band are pulling so much focus that those companies are now "coming outta the woodwork" with bumpers left and right. :)

Pure speculation on that one since designing and making such a product does take a modicum of time but, on the day of release, nobody else had 'em, nobody else mentioned 'em, nobody else was taking orders for 'em... except Apple.
Click to expand...

lol...
 
bobbba said:
Uncanny isn't it? It's almost as if apple had early access to the design... :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Uhmmm... is that how other companies had "normal" iPhone 4 cases ready to go even days before the iPhone 4 was technically available for sale? Hmmm? Seems like somebody had access to the design specs a bit earlier - hell, there were a few cases for the iPhone 4 "leaked" back in early May.

And where would they have gotten those specs to make an actual full-body case that fits the iPhone 4, I wonder...

Apple, perhaps?

NEXT!!!
 
There's places where I can engulf the entire phone in both hands and squeeze and the bars won't drop. Then there's places where touching the antenna, the bars drop to 1.

What's the difference between these tow locations? Actual signal strength.

If the actual signal is strong, touching the antenna has no meaningful or graphical effect.

If the actual signal is weak (despite showing 4 or 5 bars erroneously), then touching the antenna will cause the bars to drop to 1 or even to EDGE.

But regardless of what the bars SHOW, if I have 1 bar, I can still talk and load a web page with the occasional dropped call. NOTHING NEW THERE.

What most people are reacting is the visual cue of several bars dropping and thinking that the signal dropping proportionally - it's not, at those times, you never should've had 5 bars to begin with. Also, when people scream about the bars dropping in some test, they are not testing if they can actually use the phone/ Stop looking at the bars and enjoy the phone.

OP, you say you live under a tower - that's a weak signal. That's a shadow.
 
8CoreWhore said:
OP, you say you live under a tower - that's a weak signal. That's a shadow.
Click to expand...

Reading comprehension ftl...

I never said I live "under a tower" - I live about 750 feet from one that's on top of the AT&T central office building in downtown Vegas. The building itself is about 4 stories tall; my apartment building has 3 floors. When I step out onto the west balcony (about 25 feet outside my front door) I am line-of-sight with the actual cell site/tower which sits on top of the AT&T building, so it's about 20-25 feet higher in elevation than I am when I'm standing on that balcony.

And, considering that most cell sites/towers mount their antenna arrays with a 5-7 degree down angle I'm actually perpendicular to the actual antenna plane itself considering the distance and my altitude which is just under that of how high the antenna array is. Seriously, I should contact Anand and ask him to drop by Vegas some time since he's over in Arizona. ;)

I'm gonna go out tomorrow and snap a photo of the building from the balcony (it's almost 2AM right now). I could go shine the laser pointer on it, that would actually show up well on a photo I bet... Hrmmm...

I have on several occasions shined a laser pointer directly onto the antenna array of that cell site/tower so I can show my Wife where the signal is coming from and going to - there are zero physical obstructions in the way the signal propagates, in either direction, between the iPhone 4 in my hand standing on that balcony and that cell site/tower. Line-of-sight, no obstructions, 20-25 feet lower in elevation.

The only way I could improve things is to go stand on the AT&T building rooftop but, that's not gonna happen.

I'm in a position to get -55 dB signal strength which is as good at it's going to get so it's a non-issue.

It's not about losing bars on the display, it's about losing signal to a degree where service degrades (signals drop, calls drop, data streams disconnect/buffer frequently, etc) and finally loss of service completely (when the phone says NO SERVICE quite visibly).

If I'm not holding the phone at all, it works great as a cell phone. But I shouldn't be forced to a) buy a case - ever - to make it work as a cell phone to some degree (since even with a case I experience severe attenuation) or b) do anything different from how I've been using cell phones for decades just to get this newest greatest most sophisticated piece of cellular phone technology made yet to actually work like a cell phone.

In a nutshell, of course. ;)
 
br0adband said:
Reading comprehension ftl...

I never said I live "under a tower" - I live about 750 feet from one that's on top of the AT&T central office building in downtown Vegas. The building itself is about 4 stories tall; my apartment building has 3 floors. When I step out onto the west balcony (about 25 feet outside my front door) I am line-of-sight with the actual cell site/tower which sits on top of the AT&T building, so it's about 20-25 feet higher in elevation than I am when I'm standing on that balcony.

And, considering that most cell sites/towers mount their antenna arrays with a 5-7 degree down angle I'm actually perpendicular to the actual antenna plane itself considering the distance and my altitude which is just under that of how high the antenna array is. Seriously, I should contact Anand and ask him to drop by Vegas some time since he's over in Arizona. ;)

I'm gonna go out tomorrow and snap a photo of the building from the balcony (it's almost 2AM right now). I could go shine the laser pointer on it, that would actually show up well on a photo I bet... Hrmmm...

I have on several occasions shined a laser pointer directly onto the antenna array of that cell site/tower so I can show my Wife where the signal is coming from and going to - there are zero physical obstructions in the way the signal propagates, in either direction, between the iPhone 4 in my hand standing on that balcony and that cell site/tower. Line-of-sight, no obstructions, 20-25 feet lower in elevation.

The only way I could improve things is to go stand on the AT&T building rooftop but, that's not gonna happen.

I'm in a position to get -55 dB signal strength which is as good at it's going to get so it's a non-issue.

It's not about losing bars on the display, it's about losing signal to a degree where service degrades (signals drop, calls drop, data streams disconnect/buffer frequently, etc) and finally loss of service completely (when the phone says NO SERVICE quite visibly).

If I'm not holding the phone at all, it works great as a cell phone. But I shouldn't be forced to a) buy a case - ever - to make it work as a cell phone to some degree (since even with a case I experience severe attenuation) or b) do anything different from how I've been using cell phones for decades just to get this newest greatest most sophisticated piece of cellular phone technology made yet to actually work like a cell phone.

In a nutshell, of course. ;)
Click to expand...

It's late, your article is long, this is what I remembered --

<<While my firsthand experience is somewhat extreme (killing mine with a fingertip takes less than a minute, even standing under a cell site)>>

Standing under a cell site will give you a very low actual signal, regardless of what the bars are erroneously showing.
 
8CoreWhore said:
It's late, your article is long, this is what I remembered --

<<While my firsthand experience is somewhat extreme (killing mine with a fingertip takes less than a minute, even standing under a cell site)>>

Standing under a cell site will give you a very low actual signal, regardless of what the bars are erroneously showing.
Click to expand...

That tidbit about standing under a cell site is covered in the link (actually a secondary link) in my sig: someone requested that a person having issues actually "go stand under a cell site" (and yes I'm fully aware of the issues of shadows and being outside the actual coverage area, the null space inside the lobes of the dispersion pattern aka "dead center" as I would experience by standing directly under a tower)...

But I humored him and did it anyway, as explained in the secondary link. Same results, basically, but I can't say (and I mentioned it in the details) exactly who owns that cell site I was standing under. The AT&T building/cell site is only 2 streets over from that site I was standing under so I highly doubt it was AT&T; they wouldn't put a secondary site that close to their primary one in downtown Vegas on that building.

Regardless, I've actually gone and stood beside the AT&T building and still get nothing. I've been within 200 feet of that site and still get the same results... yes mine is an extreme example but there's quite a few people out there with my exact same situation, and even a few that are worse than mine, amazingly. :(
 
I completely forgot about Contact.

Good flick, I watched it with Netflix streaming the other day. I went out and bought the book, so I'll start reading that soon.

Also..yeah...bumper...antenna...I blame Ives.
 
iCheddar said:
I completely forgot about Contact.

Good flick, I watched it with Netflix streaming the other day. I went out and bought the book, so I'll start reading that soon.

Also..yeah...bumper...antenna...I blame Ives.
Click to expand...

The book tells the tale in a different way, so... be aware of that. :) It's fantastic, however, and makes one wish they could have done the movie more closely aligned with the book but, alas, then it would have turned into a week long mini-series on Sci-Fi or something. :)

(not that such a thing would be a bad idea, however).
 
br0adband watch this episode of TWiT
Clearly communicates about the radio and states how every radio (phone) has the same problems. He does in fact validate many of your statements in reference to antennas. BUT, they were unable to get the phone to drop calls! They also state that bars are more for the consumer and has very little to do with the reception. You either have a signal or you do not.
When you made a statement of your dropped calls and the other person did not know you were on a IP4, is it possible that their phone dropped the call?
After all, you have clearly demonstrated to us through your exhaustive posts, that you are indeed the expert here so I should not question you. Sorry.

FYI, I am not a fan boy by any means and am not brand loyal to any company. But I do love new gadgets and I have to say I LOVE MY NEW IPHONE 4!!! I have never had a dropped call, but have experienced problems with the proximity sensor. I have no intentions of returning the phone and am trying to get my wife to upgrade to one. I like it that much and so far this is the best phone I've ever had.
 
Mark954 said:
br0adband watch this episode of TWiT
Clearly communicates about the radio and states how every radio (phone) has the same problems. He does in fact validate many of your statements in reference to antennas. BUT, they were unable to get the phone to drop calls! They also state that bars are more for the consumer and has very little to do with the reception. You either have a signal or you do not.
When you made a statement of your dropped calls and the other person did not know you were on a IP4, is it possible that their phone dropped the call?
After all, you have clearly demonstrated to us through your exhaustive posts, that you are indeed the expert here so I should not question you. Sorry.

FYI, I am not a fan boy by any means and am not brand loyal to any company. But I do love new gadgets and I have to say I LOVE MY NEW IPHONE 4!!! I have never had a dropped call, but have experienced problems with the proximity sensor. I have no intentions of returning the phone and am trying to get my wife to upgrade to one. I like it that much and so far this is the best phone I've ever had.
Click to expand...

I've seen the episode, twice actually so I could be able to discuss it if necessary. :)

They were unable to get their particular phone to display or suffer from issues, and as has been noted, not every iPhone 4 seems to have the issues - it's obvious something is wrong, the problem now is determining what the issues actually are and why they're occurring on some but not every single one, if that's even possible.

Apple isn't going to say a word, and I fully believe that whenever they do come up with whatever "fix" they're supposedly working on, we'll still never get a 100% factual outright admission of the problem(s) and causes, let alone what the "fix" or fixes actually accomplish. That's my big beef overall: they're going to remain deceptive over all this till the very end and even past it.

As for having a signal or not, I (hopefully) covered that in explaining how cellular telephones and cell sites actually work; there's two different types of communication going on, and the "signal indicator" is more indicative of the control channel reception than anything else.

If people need proof of that, it's simple: when you're not on a call, or using your cellular provider for service at all the signal indicator is still there displaying the "signal strength" - it's not displaying your current call, etc because you're not ON one. It's displaying the phone's reception of the control channel, 24/7... and that's where the big problems lie when it comes to loss of service. The bars indicate how well the phone is able to pick up the control channel - it doesn't have anything to do with calls, call quality, dropped calls, etc - that's why people can actually have crappy call quality and dropped calls while still having a 5 bar "signal."

As for me being an expert, well, thanks but I'm just someone that knows a ton about how this stuff works based on hands-on experience over the decades. I don't have any specific certifications or degrees for radio communications or microwave antenna energy wave propagation, but radio communication is pretty easy to understand given my experience as a Ham for decades as well. It goes hand in hand (no pun intended) with cell phones, it's just different frequencies higher up the band... :)

Don't apologize for imagined wrong-doings; this is a discussion thread in a discussion forum, it would be completely different if I posted all this on a blog and then locked it for no comments, wouldn't it? :) I welcome discussion, because that's how information and knowledge is shared.

Knowledge isn't power, as the old saying goes, it really isn't.

Applied knowledge is power. You can know all sorts of things but if you never put it to use, well, there's not much power in that at all now is there?

As for the dropped calls thing, my iPhone 4 clearly displayed NO SERVICE in those instances - that's on my end, my phone losing the control channel, disconnecting from the cellular network, completely. It's simply not possible that the problem existed on the other end because my phone disconnected from the network.

If you're not having issues fantastic, and I sincerely hope you never do. Having said that, the proximity sensor seems to be growing in unpopularity as a problem, so maybe it might be a good idea to do an exchange while you have still have the chance. It's a good idea, I think.
 
br0adband said:
I should note that now the iPhone 4 is "entrenched," the original statement that Apple is/was the only company making a "bumper" type case/protector needs to be amended (but I'm not going to edit the original post at all as I said I wouldn't).

As of this post, 3 other companies that I've noted are now producing "bumper" cases/protectors. For whatever reason nobody else had one ready to go on the day of release except Apple is beyond me, but I would guess/speculate/whatever that since the antenna issues and that metal band are pulling so much focus that those companies are now "coming outta the woodwork" with bumpers left and right. :)

Pure speculation on that one since designing and making such a product does take a modicum of time but, on the day of release, nobody else had 'em, nobody else mentioned 'em, nobody else was taking orders for 'em... except Apple.
Click to expand...

They're just following Apple's lead. Bumpers are still hard to come by and while they do come in multiple colors, there's isn't much differentiation between SKUs. If someone would have come out with a hat for your iPhone, others would copy it.

Anyway, I don't read too much into Apple coming out with a case. I think Apple finally accepts people want cases and they realized they're leaving a lot of money on the table. However, like the iPad case, the case serves a function beyond protection. Like being a lift for the keyboard, the Bumper could certainly address attenuation issues.

The thing is, compared to the 3GS the Bumper doesn't solve all the problems. The iPhone 4 still has odd reception issues whether held or not, whether using the bumper or not.
 
br0adband said:
their particular phone[/I] to display or suffer from issues, and as has been noted, not every iPhone 4 seems to have the issues - it's obvious something is wrong, the problem now is determining what the issues actually are and why they're occurring on some but not every single one, if that's even possible.
Click to expand...

Like the Consumer Reports thing over the weekend... At first they said it was a none issue and people are crazy. And then they took the phone out of the lab and now it's suddenly, hey what's going on here?!

I'm not sure it is something wrong with particular phones. It seems it's a matter of the signal in your location. While I can consistently repeat drop of service/calls in my home and other places, many other places do not demonstrate the problem.

Now that we're getting close to week two I think more and more people may notice this as they roam about. That is if they have an open mind that it's not just ATT.

I really hope it is just the specific phone because that can be remedied with a replacement or fix. I'm kind of doubting it though. We'll see what the software fix does. At the very least if it makes the bars more accurate it will help troubleshoot what's going on.
 
Well, it's been fairly well established that's it not an AT&T issue since O2 customers in the UK have been and continue to report on the same kinds of issues we here in the US are having. As I jokingly reply sometimes:

"It's the phone, stupid..." :D

It's not directed at anyone in particular (nor you, dagomike), it's just meant to convey that the issues lie with the phone itself, either hardware or software, probably both, and since those two aspects make up the phone then it's the phone.
 
br0adband said:
Well, it's been fairly well established that's it not an AT&T issue since O2 customers in the UK have been and continue to report on the same kinds of issues we here in the US are having. As I jokingly reply sometimes:

"It's the phone, stupid..." :D

It's not directed at anyone in particular (nor you, dagomike), it's just meant to convey that the issues lie with the phone itself, either hardware or software, probably both, and since those two aspects make up the phone then it's the phone.
Click to expand...

I agree. I got a Microcell and it still does it. ATT though seems to gets blamed for everything on the iPhone, some of it is deserved, but some is not.
 
dagomike said:
I agree. I got a Microcell and it still does it. ATT though seems to gets blamed for everything on the iPhone, some of it is deserved, but some is not.
Click to expand...

I'd be interested to see some Speedtest numbers. This would be definitive proof of hardware.
 
8CoreWhore said:
It's late, your article is long, this is what I remembered --

<<While my firsthand experience is somewhat extreme (killing mine with a fingertip takes less than a minute, even standing under a cell site)>>

Standing under a cell site will give you a very low actual signal, regardless of what the bars are erroneously showing.
Click to expand...

Constantly humored by today's little kiddies who cannot handle more than bullet points!

Hopefully my point was a short enough read for you.
 
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