Ogg and H264

[clevin]

yeah, H.264 has more settings than theora in the software, i just used a default setting.

I would be hard pressed to say Theora is better, because it probably is not as a whole, but there are all kinds of situations and people using different softwares, different encoders, and/or different settings can easily reach different conclusions.

However, its also not far fetched to say that theora has been developed actively and the quality has been improved drastically in the past year, and it's qualitt is very good. to vaguely call it "just sucks" is not doing justice to it.

Theora is definitely qualified for web video.

 

[Nermal]

how does firefox restrict a thing that is not developed by them, not distributed by them, not managed by them, already encumbered by patent who is following the ugly path of GIF and MP3?

Users could install their own systemwide QuickTime or DirectShow codecs. However, from the linked blog earlier, when asked why they don't use existing codecs he had this to say:

It pushes the software freedom issues from the browser (where we have leverage to possibly change the codec situation) to the platform

I actually see it the other way around. By not using platform-provided codecs, you're restricted to using those codecs that the browser maker wishes to support. I would argue that you have more choice, not less, by allowing systemwide codecs to be used. If things continue along the current path then I'd need to use an alternative browser (or a fork of Firefox) in order to view videos in a format that I already have the codecs for.

I'm not trying to argue about patents at all. I'm simply of the opinion that if you have a licensed decoder already on your system, then you should be able to use it.

 

[clevin]

I'm not trying to argue about patents at all. I'm simply of the opinion that if you have a licensed decoder already on your system, then you should be able to use it.

except windows xp (66% market share) or vista users has no default H.264 decoder on their machine. what should they use then?


and there is still problem of which way do we envision the future of web. why exactly the open web is not a good thing for end users? Its not like we haven't been through GIF, MP3 saga before.

VLC stated the threat of patent in multimedia field. people may or may not know the complicated nature of the videos, but consider there are only limited libs and codecs underneath the seemingly unlimited softwares, x264 (hosted by VLC), libavc, etc, when MPEG-LA begin to force patent, who knows what gstreamer will do, what mplayer will do (host of mencoder), what ffmpeg will do, without these libs and codecs, people can forget about perian, mplayer, vlc, handbrakes, etc, altogether.

granted, the scenarios are a bit extreme, but thats exactly what patent will do to online video community down the road, if today H.264 becomes a practical standard.

HTML5 video tag is introduced for the reason to be cross platform, and remove the dependence of plugins, unique properties of single platforms, if just adopting different codecs that are available on each platform, whats the point of using HTML5 video tag then?

 

[Cromulent]

hmmm, its getting confusing...
some people say it does, others say it doesn't

Ogg Theora is definitely worse quality given a scene and a set bit rate.

 

[MacBH928]

current standard codec used by youtube and apple = H.264

----- ----- -----

So youtube currently are using H.264 in flash container. Interesting.

Christopher Blizzard is an Open Source Evangelist working for the Mozilla Corporation:

for example:
Quote:
But I, like many others, have reason to believe that H.264 will not be Google’s final choice. There’s good reason to believe this: they are purchasing On2. On2 has technologies that are supposed to be better than H.264. If Google owns the rights to those technologies they are very likely to use them on their properties to promote them and are also likely to license them in a web-friendly (i.e. royalty-free) fashion. Google actually has a decent history of doing this.

So now all computers and cell phones will have to update because the hardware does not support On2 V8 just to watch youtube?

This is getting even more confusing. H264, Ogg, and v8.

i guess in the end it will be plug-ins all over again just like how it used to be back in the day of Quicktime, Media Player, and Real Player. Welcome back to system crashes.

It makes sense now why Apple is supporting H264. With handbrake, VLC, and more tools gone because they can't pay the license fee, no more DVD ripping and transferring movies. You will be forced to buy off iTunes. It all makes sense now.

 

[Aronnax]

So now all computers and cell phones will have to update because the hardware does not support On2 V8 just to watch youtube?

This is getting even more confusing. H264, Ogg, and v8.

Every iPhone and every other computer would need new software for On2 V8, but not new hardware.
Maybe would be the iPhone to slow for large On2 V8 files and it would need always more CPU power and more CPU power would have this result = shorter battery time. The same with other computer, only on a much higher level.

When we will not have a new unique standard.
Would web-developer use for example something like this:
http://camendesign.com/code/video_for_everybody
http://camendesign.com/code/video_for_everybody/test.html
But nobody would really love something like this

Or they would still use many many years what we have now = Flash
Probably soon with this:

In Flash Player 10.1 we are moving to CoreAnimation, which will further reduce CPU usage and we believe will get us to the point where Mac will be faster than Windows for graphics rendering.

http://blogs.adobe.com/conversations/2010/02/open_access_to_content_and_app.html#comment-2137153
---
CoreAnimation = is as well hardware acceleration
And maybe will have then Flash a much better reputation on Mac OS X.

Cheers

 

[MacBH928]

video for everybody is an amazing idea,

When should we expect Flash 10.1 for the mac?
i am tired of my computer getting hot as crazy

 

[DoFoT9]

Wirelessly posted (nokia e63: Mozilla/5.0 (SymbianOS/9.2; U; Series60/3.1 NokiaE63-1/100.21.110; Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 ) AppleWebKit/413 (KHTML, like Gecko) Safari/413)

video for everybody is an amazing idea,

When should we expect Flash 10.1 for the mac?
i am tired of my computer getting hot as crazy

don't get your hopes up lol... Update doesnt necessarily = better optimization, which there needs to be lots of!

 

[clevin]

Ogg Theora is definitely worse quality given a scene and a set bit rate.

did you not see my pics?

even if thats true, the difference is +/- 5%. why is that so intolerable when the brighter and free-er environment can be achieved?

and theora encoding is best controlled by the "quality" number (1-10), rather than a "set bitrate". Because so far, I dont think "setting a bitrate" in theora will produce variable bitrate videos, thats probably why when you set bitrate, a fast moving pic will get worse quality.

Thats not to say theora doesn't support variable bitrate, since it's document says it does, just haven't see any software to use that ( I only used ffmpeg2theora, and Im not aware of any other more up to date tools)

 

[Rocketman]

This has risen to Slashdot as well:

http://tech.slashdot.org/story/10/04/13/0141208/Google-to-Open-Source-the-VP8-Codec

This is being positioned as Google presenting their version of a solution. Notably that solution forsakes H.264 even tough they know full well Apple has been on the H.264 bandwagon full blast all along the way.

This may be Google forsaking a full price fully paid for asset to more fully splinter the Apple garden.

A browser could practicably support all of them. H.264, HTML5, Ogg, Theora, VP8. This seems about some sort of default status.

Rocketman

 

[jnpy!$4g3cwk]

Hello,

I am not a technical guy, and I do not understand the difference between the two codecs or why one is free and the other is to pay for.

I also do not know why would companies like Apple and Youtube want to pay licenses fees while a free option is available ,

but what I know that Ogg is just as good as h264 and many people are voting for Ogg since its free(and since they use FireFox which will not support it).

In my testing, it takes about 20-25% more bits with Theora compared to H.264. Theora is more efficient than MPEG-2, but, less efficient than H.264. Now, 20% sounds like a lot to some people, not very much to others. As a consumer, 20% is a small price to pay for a standard, IP-free format. But, for YouTube, say, 20% more bandwidth on their outgoing pipes is significant. It might still be worth it to them if the MPEG-4/H.264 patent holders get uppity. But, for now, maybe they are holding Theora in their back pocket until they see how H.264 licensing evolves. For sure, if the H.264 folks become unreasonable, everyone will switch.

 

[Rocketman]

In my testing, it takes about 20-25% more bits with Theora compared to H.264. Theora is more efficient than MPEG-2, but, less efficient than H.264. Now, 20% sounds like a lot to some people, not very much to others. As a consumer, 20% is a small price to pay for a standard, IP-free format. But, for YouTube, say, 20% more bandwidth on their outgoing pipes is significant. It might still be worth it to them if the MPEG-4/H.264 patent holders get uppity. But, for now, maybe they are holding Theora in their back pocket until they see how H.264 licensing evolves. For sure, if the H.264 folks become unreasonable, everyone will switch.

Apple is the company that talked about Blu-Ray licensing being a "big bag of hurt". They are particularly qualified to tell you the future direction of H.264. They are 100% behind it and supportive of it. So the licensing while not quite free seems to be skewed toward large providers of content where the cost savings exceeds the license fees. That's how things should be and it makes consumer access either free or "included in the price".

Rocketman

 

[jnpy!$4g3cwk]

did you not see my pics?

even if thats true, the difference is +/- 5%. why is that so intolerable when the brighter and free-er environment can be achieved?

I believe that at low quality/bitrate settings, Theora and H.264 have about the same performance. Some people subjectively give the edge to Theora. It is at high quality settings that H.264 is more efficient.

That said, I don't see why every browser can't support Theora as a minimum default, with other, potentially more efficient codecs, as options.

 

[jnpy!$4g3cwk]

I believe that at low quality/bitrate settings, Theora and H.264 have about the same performance. Some people subjectively give the edge to Theora. It is at high quality settings that H.264 is more efficient.

I did some more experimenting with with re-encoding some complex action, and, it appeared to me that H.264 and Theora were basically equivalent for the same bitrate/filesize. With animation, H.264 seems to have a significant advantage. But, Theora software decode was significantly lower CPU. I think Theora has gotten a bad rap -- so far, in my experience, it is very good.

 

[MacBH928]

OK,
so let them use H264 , since all the companies are behind it.
What does that mean for the end user like me?
I don't believe that i have to pay anything since i don't pay for mp3 or divx right now.

so it doesn't hurt me, does it?

 

[jnpy!$4g3cwk]

Patent Pool Being Assembled To Go After Theora?

I did some more experimenting with with re-encoding some complex action, and, it appeared to me that H.264 and Theora were basically equivalent for the same bitrate/filesize. With animation, H.264 seems to have a significant advantage. But, Theora software decode was significantly lower CPU. I think Theora has gotten a bad rap -- so far, in my experience, it is very good.

Well, I guess the goodness of Theora is moot:

http://www.osnews.com/story/23233/Jobs_Patent_Pool_Being_Assembled_To_Go_After_Theora

It looks like we are all going to be going back to Motion JPEG for shooting and editing. Everyone should read the articles on OSnews.

 

[Ice Cream Man]

I was just reading up on the "SUMMARY OF AVC/H.264 LICENSE TERMS" at the MPEGLA website the cost is so small to license the technology, money which ultimately goes to help develop the standard further.

I don't get what the big issue is. Not only that at what point does ogg and all require more money and donations to keep up? When do we see the demise of ogg simply because the funding from 'users like you' isn't enough. Do they start interrupting video feeds with their fall and spring funding drives like public television and radio? Open source hippies!

I don't mind paying ten cents per device for licensing for my one or two or three devices to have a guarantied quality standard.

Anyway it's not like we're picking a political leader here! It's just a stupid codec.

 

[DoFoT9]

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cream I'm sorry but I don't agree with paying for the rights to use a codec on a device. They change so fast and I change devices so fast that its just going to be plain annoying. Then each organisation would start charging for each codec.that I want to use, audio, video, etc..

 

[MacBH928]

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cream I'm sorry but I don't agree with paying for the rights to use a codec on a device. They change so fast and I change devices so fast that its just going to be plain annoying. Then each organisation would start charging for each codec.that I want to use, audio, video, etc..

everyone would like to have the free alternative , but at 10 cents a device, thats cheap enough . A lot of people are working behind this so, some kind of income is needed.

I do not see how codecs change so quickly. mp3 and divx has been used for ages now, any other type of codecs takes many years of use. Fair enough

 

[Cromulent]

A lot of people also seem to be missing the rather large point that has been doing the rounds that Ogg Theora may not actually be patent free. If it is discovered at a later date that it does indeed infringe some patents then that would be a disaster.

Better the devil you know and all that.

 

[DoFoT9]

everyone would like to have the free alternative , but at 10 cents a device, thats cheap enough . A lot of people are working behind this so, some kind of income is needed.

if one starts charging, they all start charging. 10c soon becomes $5 for each device.

I do not see how codecs change so quickly. mp3 and divx has been used for ages now, any other type of codecs takes many years of use. Fair enough

there are lots of new codecs. AAC, h264, VC-1 MPEG etc. all constantly changing versions etc. any money they would charge for version "updates" too

 

[MacBH928]

if one starts charging, they all start charging. 10c soon becomes $5 for each device.


there are lots of new codecs. AAC, h264, VC-1 MPEG etc. all constantly changing versions etc. any money they would charge for version "updates" too

okay I see your point

maybe there should be a limit for how much codecs charge, a maximum of 10c?

 

[DoFoT9]

okay I see your point

maybe there should be a limit for how much codecs charge, a maximum of 10c?

if it meant that we get the best of all codecs available because the less competitive/inferior ones cant keep up - i might go for that

 

[jnpy!$4g3cwk]

A lot of people also seem to be missing the rather large point that has been doing the rounds that Ogg Theora may not actually be patent free. If it is discovered at a later date that it does indeed infringe some patents then that would be a disaster.

Better the devil you know and all that.

It is not that simple. So far, they have reserved the right to change the terms "next year". So, maybe this year it is free, next year it is $.10 per device, and two or three years down the line they decide that they want $1 per free download and 1% of the gross of all sales. You don't know the devil very well yet at all. The devil needs to come clean and state what the long-term terms are going to be. But, instead, we are in drug-dealer mode - "Here, try some H.264, no cost right now. We'll talk about our small fee later (after you are hooked)." We did say devil, didn't we? The fact is, we don't know what the terms are going to be for H.264.

And, you are right about Theora -- it doesn't matter if I say it is patent-free, if the other side has a $100M legal war chest. Unfortunately, any free codec right now needs a rich uncle.

 

[MacBH928]

Well,
I have faith in coders/hackers world wide...

They managed to give us a free OS(Linux) a free Microsoft Office(OpenOffice) and free photoshop(Gimp) , I am pretty sure they can give us a free codec.

I don't know who these guys are, I don't know where they are, but I know they exist and for this I thank them.