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Does anyone know if DriveDX supports RAID volumes?

From there web site it looks like limited support.

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They have a free trial on their web site you could use to try it out.
 
From there web site it looks like limited support.

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They have a free trial on their web site you could use to try it out.

Thanks for that, i did and it does not seem like it supports it, i've e-mail tech-support and they are looking into it... i'll report back as i hear more... though i must say their response was rather fast... good sign IMO.
 
Sa-Sa-Sushi:

With respect to smartmontools, smartctl, etc. and DriveDX, if you open up the DriveDX application and enter the folder DriveDX.app->Contents->Resources you will find an HTML file named "acknowledgements.html" along with smartctl. You can open the acknowledgements.html file and it will tell that it's essentially using smartctl to obtain SMART data. Because it's GNU licensed, I believe he's required to put that in the package.

The external drive drivers are just some more freeware that the guy is using to allow SMART access to external drives, provided they support it. By the way, if you update MacOS you may find you need to re-install the drivers (not a big deal, just thought I'd put that out there for anyone interested). The external SMART drivers will also work with other stuff as well, FWIW

The writers of DriveDX are basically re-interpreting the output from smartctl and putting it into a more user friendly interface. If the writers of smartmontools have no problems with that then I see no reason why anyone else should either.

Killerovsky:

If you want to detect "fault cable" - keep an eye on SMART attribute #199 "CRC Error Count" and #188 "Command Timeout". There also some other SMART attribute that could report "fault cables" but they are vary for different drive models.

If you want detect data corruption occurring between the drive and the system - keep an eye on following SMART attributes: #1 "Read Error Rate", #13 Soft Read Error Rate, #199 "CRC Error Count", #204 "Soft ECC Correction", etc. Note: relevant SMART attributes may vary for different drive models.

Another effective way to "detect data corruption occurring between the drive and the system" is keep an eye on system I/O error count - this is not part of SMART but some tools like DriveDx or SMART Reporter have such feature (system I/O Errors monitoring).

You cannot detect problems outside of the hard drive using SMART monitoring. Once a SMART session is started it's handled entirely by the drive controller and it's only testing components inside the drive. During and at the completion of tests data may be made available to an interpreter, but nothing outside the drive will be tested.

You need to keep in mind that a hard drive is actually a subsystem unto itself. Cable faults, particularly to/from the drive heads can become intermittent leading to CRC failures. Likewise, the amplifiers feeding/receiving data to the drive heads can start to fail like any other amplifier and induce incorrect read and write data. There are a myriad of failures that can occur inside the drive/controller assemblies.

The function of the controller is to interpret commands sent to it by the system, respond to them, and then send the appropriate data back to the system. Once the data going to the system is sent out the controller's I/O port, it's the system's problem, not the drive's. If SMART was interpreting I/O errors in I/O cables outside the drive it would be embedding false errors (i.e. errors not caused by the drive) into the SMART data, and people would be replacing perfectly good drives when a cable is the problem. I don't think drive manufacturer's would think too much of that. You cannot expect SMART to record problems that have nothing to do with the drive itself.

The link FritzPeter put up about about the guy using DriveDX and getting bad results, then updating it and getting good results highlights one of the problems with SMART. Anyone that's worked in the electronics industry, particularly in the computer industry is well aware of one simple fact: Designers are constantly changing things. In some cases it's because one chip manufacturer may offer bulk quantities of chips for a lower price, in others it may be because of scarcity or even discontinuation of a product. In any case, the design and implementation often needs to be tweaked and modified to accommodate such changes. The changes, albeit often minor often require re-writing or modifying the controller code, which in turn, depending on the severity of the changes, may require modification of SMART software.

If you've ever visited an actual data recovery facility, they typically recover data from a bad drive using a "donor" drive. They will make a point of matching the controller and firmware revisions with those of the actual drive housing because they're well aware of the types of modifications manufacturers make, even though the model numbers may be identical.

Third party SMART software is thus always playing a proverbial game of "catch up" with the manufacturers. That doesn't mean that smartctl or DriveDX are "bad" programs or poorly written, it simply means that drive manufactures can do as they wish - they're under no obligation to report their changes to these people.

When testing bad drives, I've found that if I'm using Scannerz and it fails a drive, if I send the report, the log file, and now the diagnostics report confirming the problem to a manufacturer, they never question it. They just send me the RMA and shipping information. The few times I've reported SMART related problems, I've typically been introduced to the following "game:"

  1. Remove the drive from the unit
  2. Put the drive in a Windows system
  3. Download their own proprietary software
  4. Run their specified tests on the unit
  5. Send the report on the drive to them to evaluate
  6. Wait for them to respond

You may be surprised how little support these guys have for Mac's, even though they advertise their units as "fully Mac compatible." This obviously wouldn't apply in the case where a drive was flat out dead, but in cases where there are signs of degradation, don't expect manufacturers to accept third party SMART data as viable.

What do you think about DiskWarrior?

Disk Warrior is a totally different type of tool DriveDX is HD only, Scannerz is Drive/System testing, and Disk Warrior is file recovery. Disk Warrior is most notable for being able to recover data from a drive where the actual index files have become corrupt. It's generally very good at it, but personally I haven't encountered that problem in years.
 
The writers of DriveDX are basically re-interpreting the output from smartctl and putting it into a more user friendly interface. If the writers of smartmontools have no problems with that then I see no reason why anyone else should either.

Thank you for this confirmation and, again, I wasn't saying that DriveDX is not using Smartmontools.

The value for me in DriveDX is exactly as you mentioned: A) their own interpretations/analysis of the SMART data and B) the attractive interface, in that order.

Cheers.
 
Sa-Sa-Sushi:


Disk Warrior is a totally different type of tool DriveDX is HD only, Scannerz is Drive/System testing, and Disk Warrior is file recovery. Disk Warrior is most notable for being able to recover data from a drive where the actual index files have become corrupt. It's generally very good at it, but personally I haven't encountered that problem in years.

Thank you for answer.
I'm a little confused: I think DW rebuild corrupted directory.

The true is I used it 2 times and final diagnostic was "... DW can not repair due to mechanical problems ..." : I've changed the HD, recovering the information from Time Machine.

Rgds.
 
RE the post above:
[[ ...and Disk Warrior is file recovery...]]

Disk Warrior has NOTHING TO DO with "file recovery".

DW is about maintaining, rebuilding and replacing disk -directories- ONLY.

DW never modifies or "recovers" files out on the actual sectors of the drive.

DW DOES modify and rebuild the drive's directory.

If you need "file recovery", then you need data recovery software such as:
- DataRescue3
- Disk Drill
- Stellar Phoenix Data Recovery
etc.

Those apps -are- purposely designed to "go to the platters" and to scavenge for and to recover "lost files" -- even when there are no directory entries for those files.

DW cannot do this, and has never been able to do this. It's not intended to do this...
 
Disk Warrior has NOTHING TO DO with "file recovery".

Hmmm, nothing to do with it except for the fact that it is data recovery software.

DW is about maintaining, rebuilding and replacing disk -directories- ONLY.
and in so doing, restoring access to the otherwise lost files that reside in them.

Perhaps Alsoft's own description of DiskWarrior might help you to better understand this:

DiskWarrior recovers your files including your photos, music and videos.
DiskWarrior is the safest, most technologically advanced, most powerful utility to eliminate directory damage and recover your files, folders and documents.
Note the words, files and recover. :p

If DiskWarrior isn't capable of reconstructing the damaged directories you might try something else.

That doesn't make DiskWarrior any less of a file recovery app.
 
To me disk/file recovery means that you're having problems with a drive and you're missing files/directories. You run the application on the drive, then files and directories that seemed lost now re-appear. I would say such software could be called "file recovery" software. The difference is in how the applications do it and what they're doing to recover.

That said I'd have to call Disk Warrior "file recovery" software as well. Like SaSaSushi pointed out, it's right on the company's home page.

To change the topic slightly, I haven't had an index problem of any consequence in probably 6 or 7 years. With good backups and I assume a now thoroughly debugged file system, is something like Disk Warrior ever needed anymore?

I'm not trying to put Disk Warrior down. I've used the product some time ago and it worked miracles, but i just don't seem to ever have indexing problems anymore. If I did I'd just restore from Time Machine backup, which may be faster than using Disk Warrior to recover data.
 
I sort of lost you people looong time ago, haha — but keep up with the discussion. I'm sure that at some point and after some research I'll be able to come up with some valuable conclusions.
 
Take a look at SMART monitoring utilities like DriveDX. As a drive starts to have errors they will be reported in the SMART status with these utilities.

In my experience, DU's verify disk mostly shows problems after they have already occurred and need repair.

OS X constantly checks the SMART status of the drive automatically. If you want to manually activate OS X's SMART scan, you can use DU or the Terminal. Other tools can check the SMART status as well, but what's the point when it's built in?
 
OS X constantly checks the SMART status of the drive automatically. If you want to manually activate OS X's SMART scan, you can use DU or the Terminal. Other tools can check the SMART status as well, but what's the point when it's built in?

I kind of feel like we already went over this in thread. Read the earlier posts. Disk Util shows SMART status in a hexadecimal format that cannot be easily read and also will not work with Filevault turned on. Terminal requires an add on utility that is not very user friendly.

If you can show me where OS X "constantly checks the SMART status", I would appreciate it, because I am not aware of that occurring or how one would access the result of the "automatic" monitoring.

Again, DriveDX allows me to start an app and quickly see the SMART data in an easily understood format on a Filevault protected SSD. I still have not seen a way to do that in OS X. If you don't think that convenience is worth the money, I get that, but it is for me.
 
Answer

I kind of feel like we already went over this in thread. Read the earlier posts. Disk Util shows SMART status in a hexadecimal format that cannot be easily read and also will not work with Filevault turned on. Terminal requires an add on utility that is not very user friendly.

If you can show me where OS X "constantly checks the SMART status", I would appreciate it, because I am not aware of that occurring or how one would access the result of the "automatic" monitoring.

Again, DriveDX allows me to start an app and quickly see the SMART data in an easily understood format on a Filevault protected SSD. I still have not seen a way to do that in OS X. If you don't think that convenience is worth the money, I get that, but it is for me.

OS X will not show you the data from the SMART scan unless there is a problem, in which case a popup will appear. You can see in System Information, under your hard drive, if all checks out though. It'll say SMART status verified. This scan occurs, I believe, on boot-up, shutdown, and every hour unless other software requests status.
 
OS X will not show you the data from the SMART scan unless there is a problem, in which case a popup will appear. You can see in System Information, under your hard drive, if all checks out though. It'll say SMART status verified. This scan occurs, I believe, on boot-up, shutdown, and every hour unless other software requests status.

Ah... thanks I see that now. It appears to only check on startup and does not provide any detail/stats other than "verified." Looks like the Terminal command below will pull it up also. Nowhere near the detailed report the third party tools give you though.

Code:
diskutil info disk0 | grep SMART

gives you:

Code:
 SMART Status:  Verified
 
Sure

Ah... thanks I see that now. It appears to only check on startup and does not provide any detail/stats other than "verified." Looks like the Terminal command below will pull it up also. Nowhere near the detailed report the third party tools give you though.

Code:
diskutil info disk0 | grep SMART

gives you:

Code:
 SMART Status:  Verified

Of course. If you want the data, by all means, go third party.
Could've sworn it also checked every hour though, guess I was wrong. I know that iStat Pro (old one) and iStat Menu's SMART check basically invoked the OS X standard SMART status checker for their checks.
 
Ah... thanks I see that now. It appears to only check on startup and does not provide any detail/stats other than "verified." Looks like the Terminal command below will pull it up also. Nowhere near the detailed report the third party tools give you though.

Code:
diskutil info disk0 | grep SMART

gives you:

Code:
 SMART Status:  Verified

As was pointed out before for most internal non-Core Storage drives, Disk Utility will display all SMART parameters for internal HDs. How often OS X checks it is unknown to me. I have fairly good contact with SCSC (the guys who create Scannerz) and when asked why they, like Apple, kept SMART status to themselves (i.e. don't report the numbers or anything else) I was told that the rationale was that most people don't fully know how to comprehend the output of SMART registers and the fact that the vendors do not implement it consistently.

Personally I'm a little suspect of SMART because I've seen it totally miss problems too many times, or report catastrophic problems on drives that continued to last for years. I've seen both happen way too many times. If I thought it was reliable I'd use it.
 
As I commented before, I lost track of the discussion a long time ago.

Having said that, is there any conclusion you have arrived to, after such a long and technical discussion? What's the bottom line for the ones who are used to the “it just works” like me? Which app should I use to make sure my disks aren't going to die anytime soon? Which specific task should I perform?
 
I own both Scannerz and Drive DX. If I had to pick one over the other I would pick Scannerz. I would not buy the $49.95 version of Scannerz, which includes the full version of FSE, I would get the $39.95 version with FSE-Lite. The only use I can see for the full version of FSE is if you're a system admin and you have dingbats you're supporting who keep downloading rubbish like Mac Keeper and you need to constantly be tracing what's launching.

All you will get here are opinions, and opinions are neither right or wrong. I would get Scannerz over Drive DX for the following reasons:

  1. It's a real product developed by a standalone company. Drive DX is an interface to an open source product that you can get for free. When the open source developers, who work on the project as essentially a hobby decide to stop doing it, there goes the product. I've been stung more than once when using Linux when developers just decided "well, I've got other things to do."
  2. You get more stuff with Scannerz. I use the new version of Performance Probe all the time to see just exactly why my system gets stressed erratically so many times. A lot of people probably think it's something wrong with their hardware and that product can make it clear why the system is loading. Typical culprits are IconServicesAgent and Safari Web content...usually loading numerous copies of itself for only-Apple-know-why.
  3. The Scannerz package has Phoenix and even though it doesn't formally support Yosemite yet, when I started reading about Yosemite Beta possibly screwing up boot partitions on primary drives, the first thing I did was take Phoenix out and treat the Yosemite volume like a standard volume and it cloned Yosemite to a new drive just fine. Now I use Yosemite on an external drive and I don't need to worry about it screwing up my main drive's volume. I really don't know how bad the problem with Yosemite messing up boot volumes really was, but I didn't want to take a chance.
  4. Scannerz itself can evaluate more than just the drive it can help identify cable and system problems, and it's monitoring SMART status anyway

In either case if you got Scannerz you would need to do a scan on your drive. It can take a long time, depending on the speed. If you use Drive DX you just run it and it will test the SMART status of the drive. You can also get that same info from Disk Utility unless you're using Core Storage. Scannerz can find errors the Drive DX will miss because it can detect cable faults, system faults, and drive problems. Drive DX, and any SMART monitoring device, will only report on what SMART status deems a valid error. IMHO SMART testing isn't all that accurate.

If you really want to know what I think, you should probably buy both. You could do periodic tests every month with Scannerz to verify all your drives are OK and then more frequent, quick checks to look for any sudden errors with Drive DX.

Another way to look at it is this: The two best know tools on the market are Tech Tools Pro and Drive Genius, and they both sell for $100 or more depending on what you get. A new drive typically costs less than that! I've run Scannerz on a drive that was failing and it plowed right through it telling me it had all kinds of errors where Drive Genius just went into some kind of reset loop never telling me anything about anything. I'd bet Drive DX's SMART reporting is also better than what Tech Tools Pro and Drive Genius provide, but that's a guess.

There you have it - my opinion. :cool:
 
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the only use i can see for the full version of fse is if you're a system admin and you have dingbats you're supporting who keep downloading rubbish like mac keeper and you need to constantly be tracing what's launching.


....hey!!!! That's my sister you're talkin' about, fella!!!!!! :eek:
 
I'm under the impression that some drive vendors play games with SMART monitoring so they don't have to accept drives under warranty. An example might be a weak sector. A weak sector is a sector that's readable but damaged and it takes a lot of time. Scannerz identifies it as an irregularity and confirms it as a weak sector. However. Whether SMART is going to do anything with it is a crap shoot and totally vendor dependent. Because it's still readable should it be re-located and mapped out, or left in place to be read.

If it gets marked bad someone might have a case to claim they want a new drive. It might just be better from a manufacturers standpoint to just not acknowledge the problem and let it sit there.
 
I'm under the impression that some drive vendors play games with SMART monitoring so they don't have to accept drives under warranty. An example might be a weak sector. A weak sector is a sector that's readable but damaged and it takes a lot of time. Scannerz identifies it as an irregularity and confirms it as a weak sector. However. Whether SMART is going to do anything with it is a crap shoot and totally vendor dependent. Because it's still readable should it be re-located and mapped out, or left in place to be read.

If it gets marked bad someone might have a case to claim they want a new drive. It might just be better from a manufacturers standpoint to just not acknowledge the problem and let it sit there.

I don't think it's really quite that simple or conspiratorial. A drive designer faces a dilemma when confronted with moving a marginal block out of use and replacing it with a spare. What he's really doing is punching a hole in the file system and telling it to redirect elsewhere to get the relocated block. The trouble is the original block is now gone. Not a big deal if it wasn't in use, but if it was in use the file is now shot. You might say "So what, it's only one file" but what if that file is the OS kernel? What if it's one of the system dynamic libraries needed to boot the system. You now have a non-bootable system.

Whether such a slow loading sector would show up in SMART analysis, hence DriveDX I don't know. I would think it would show up as a pending sector, but it might not be marked bad at all. Scannerz would flag it as weak sector so you would know what the problem is.
 
So what is a SMART monitoring program going to report on something like that? Nothing?
 
So what is a SMART monitoring program going to report on something like that? Nothing?

That's totally up to the guys developing the firmware for the drive. Keep in mind that drives vary considerably in technology so they can't all abide by the exact same set of rules.
 
Over the weekend I had contact with a former engineer at WD/Hitachi. It sounds like the HD industry is quite the good 'ol boys club, with engineers in what sound like moving circles of employment, from one manufacturer to the next.

Anyhow, I asked him about SMART and he basically scoffed. Firmware engineers at most if not all places apparently get one cut at developing it and once done, regardless of whether or not the design of the controller changes, there it sits. It's not unlikely for it to report bad or misleading data on a drive. It's no conspiracy, it's more like companies being too cheap to update stuff they don't need to.

People like SMART because it's easy. One click and a bunch of parameters show up providing you with data. Sure, the data may be wrong, in fact on some of these smartmontools interfaces like DriveDX it may even be outdated, but as long as they get their quick report saying all is correct, even if the drive's actually dying, happy they will be.

I think it's called wishful thinking.
 
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