My position is that it should be 10 years from the date of release.
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Only 7 years of support from release date is unacceptable for a $2000+ personal computer.
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Some of those "paid" service plans are pretty good, though, and in my experience at least one of them (Dell's) costs less and offers better service than AppleCare.
The firm I work with has been outfitting our consultants with Dell laptops since I started there (15+ years ago). They always purchase either decently-spec'd Latitude or Precision laptops and Dell's premium 3-year service plan. Cost-wise, the laptops plus the service plans have been priced about the same as or a bit less than a similarly spec'd Macbook Pro with a 3-year AppleCare warranty in their time.
I've only ever needed service once on a work laptop (had a USB port burn out on a Precision M3800). Called Dell tech support to report the issue and the tech was at my office desk with the replacement parts on hand (new motherboard and bottom case assembly) the next morning. Was down for at most two hours while my laptop was being repaired. This was in around 2014, so who knows if things have changed, but as far as I am aware, the enterprise service plan that we use is still three-years (with a renewal option), on-site, next-day service with full damage coverage. I've seen colleagues have a similar experience when they needed service, including one colleague who accidentally ran over his laptop with his truck (in his case, had had his screen, top, and bottom case replaced. Hard drive and other parts were still perfectly fine).
Apple doesn't even offer this level of service.
I would really like to be able to daily my iMac G4, Apple sucks for not supporting it anymore.
Not for Macs they sell for years (ie the 2017 Air which was sold into 2020 - didn’t get 7-8 years of support for those who bought in 2020.
The end of software support = services often breaking (ie iCloud items not syncing due to format changes, Apple home architecture changes meaning home no longer works) on top of the security risks introduced.
The argument that no other company is doing it = it shouldn't be done doesn’t make a lot of sense. Should no company aspire to improve?
OCLP has demonstrated it’s more than feasible for hardware that Apple dropped years ago to run current versions of MacOS. Again, if hobbyists can achieve it in their spare time, it is more than feasible.
I also never said 15 years, I just mentioned 2012 Macs (13 years old) as I still successfully use a Mid 2012 MacBook as a secondary machine purely because OCLP has enabled me to use Sequoia on it.
The retro computing community has produced some really amazing ways to use old computers for modern purposes. I remember seeing a demo of someone's OS9 Mastodon client.
I have an old Atari ST that I adore. If I ever have time, I'm gonna figure out how to hook it up to Ethernet and run a browser on it.
Former Apple employee here, you’re stating a lot of facts about Dell while intentionally leaving out the facts about Apple.
AppleCare for Enterprise is available and offers 24/7 onsite support, available for those in Enterprise just like Dell’s services.
Here is a link for more info: https://www.apple.com/ca/support/professional/enterprise/
It’s also been proven over and over that Macs are cheaper to deploy over the long term over PCs. They have a higher acquisition cost initially but cost less to maintain and replace over time compared to PCs.
I'm livid that my Apple IIGS isn't receving regular security updates.
I think things need to be different starting with the Apple Silicon Macs. It's now 100% Apple controlled product end to end, from hardware to software.
They are no longer bound to support Intel CPU/GPU or AMD GPU, don't have to rely on those companies to provide updated drivers or other support.
IMO OS support should be for 10 years, for basic things like security updates and things that allow the machine to function in a future world like provided updated browsers. You can segment newer features as the hardware requirements dictate it beyond a certain age, of course, like I wouldn't expect a M1 iMac to support the full features of Apple Intelligence in 2030. But basic features that are present now should continue to function and continue to be improved.
Besides, the difference the M1-M3 is not a lot, in terms of general computing power, I'm not talking about the Pro/Max/Ultra variants. M1-M2 especially was not a big jump. The bigger issue will be the RAM, which is of course not upgradeable, and the vast majority of these machines sold to average consumers were sold with 8GB ram, much to our collective whine.
So it will be interesting to see how Apple handles the M1 series full OS update (not security only) once that 7 year time frame rolls around. It won't be fair if they discontinue OS updates for M1, but M2 will be supported purely because it's newer and not because it's that much better.
They are no longer bound to support Intel CPU/GPU or AMD GPU, don't have to rely on those companies to provide updated drivers or other support.
IMO OS support should be for 10 years, for basic things like security updates and things that allow the machine to function in a future world like provided updated browsers. You can segment newer features as the hardware requirements dictate it beyond a certain age, of course, like I wouldn't expect a M1 iMac to support the full features of Apple Intelligence in 2030. But basic features that are present now should continue to function and continue to be improved.
Besides, the difference the M1-M3 is not a lot, in terms of general computing power, I'm not talking about the Pro/Max/Ultra variants. M1-M2 especially was not a big jump. The bigger issue will be the RAM, which is of course not upgradeable, and the vast majority of these machines sold to average consumers were sold with 8GB ram, much to our collective whine.
So it will be interesting to see how Apple handles the M1 series full OS update (not security only) once that 7 year time frame rolls around. It won't be fair if they discontinue OS updates for M1, but M2 will be supported purely because it's newer and not because it's that much better.
I've had called apple out many times, I'm not a blind fanboy, but they deserve credit where it belongs. They are a typical tech company following general norms that are consistent with the tech sector.
What Apple excels at, is the ingegration and tightness of their hardware and software, and some of that is due to the fact they choose not keep holding onto legacy code and legacy support of hardware after many years.
On the other hand, what was once Microsoft's strong point, great hardware support on legacy and arcane hardware, along with cutting edge hardware is now an albatross that hangs around their neck pulling the performance of windows down, and causing stability issues for what I perceive as little to no benefit.
with many compromises, not the least of which being security
I was still running a hackintosh as my main machine until fairly recent (which is what OCLP actually does, you are simply hackintoshing your Mac), so I understand this well
it's hard to imagine apple maintaining all of these janky workarounds to keep old machines running
there have been multiple major changes in recent years with how the OS actually functions at the framework and kernel level, including the OS booting as a sealed snapshot, which needs to be unsealed by OCLP to work in many cases. not to mention the move to an entirely new architecture.
dropping intel sooner rather than later is probably better for the OS in the present, even though I'm one who laments moving to a proprietary SOC so I can no longer install basically any OS on any machine, if that's what it's going to be then it may as well be all in
to be clear, I by no means am disparaging Open Core or OCLP or what they do. They are amazing tools built by very intelligent people. I just wouldn't expect apple to do all of the things necessary to keep those old machines running current macos
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I contacted apple support via the ios app several times in the past two years for a 2014 Mac Mini, a 2012 Mac Mini, and a 2011 MBP, all my questions were answered. They didn't resolve all issues, but they did get me answers and responded.
Given that apple typically provides security updates for OSes for 2 years or so after the next release the OP’s 7 year comment becomes 9 or 10 years counting security updates, which means Apple’s support now is basically exactly in line with what you’re talking about
That said I’d actually deeply like there to be a legal requirement for that, 10 years of security updates mandated would be a nice piece of mind requirement.
But Dell support doesn't affect the OS that runs on it. So you can buy a Dell and keep using it with a supported OS forever. Also Microsoft doesn't release a new version of windows every year like apple does.
The point for apple is that they do HW and OS, so after 7 years you'll have no place to go. It would fair if apple STOP offering support for 7 year old systems but permit new OS releases to run on the 7-year-old HW. The abuse is very clear and it's very well described by the term "planned obsolescence". That is, you still have a perfectly capable HW, but they stop the OS functioning on it. So you have no place to go.
With HW there's again another abuse. They sell HW with limited resources without option for the user to upgrade it with industry resources. Also they charge a lot for RAM and SSD so either you pay a lot (and a very unfair amount) for THEM to upgrade or you get the overpriced device with limited HW resources and soon without option to update it's SW.
It's ridiculous, but even being ridiculous as it is people (like you're doing) still find ways to defend and legitimate it...
HW should be limited to resources not SW. period.
You're dead wrong.
1- Apple is restricting us by limiting the OS lifetime to 7 years.
2- OK, arm is not proprietary on it's philosophy, but M1 is. No developer have documentation about Apple Mx architecture or tech docs. So if linux is supported it's based on effort, without apple help and by using reverse engineering. On PC industry intel and chipset players offer documentation so devs can offer alternatives.
3- For RAM memory they were the ones who changed the whole industry. Before Steve Jobs death every single mac mini could be user upgradable on memory and disk. After that, Tim cook ditched every upgradeability and started to offer hw with substandard resources. They sold 8gb ram machines 'till very late years and 128gb macs. Much later than the whole industry. That's the kind of abuse they can do with HW+SW+OS. Unfortunately politics are always late to protect us.
There's no option like you're telling. It's is a locked in ecosystem with a very square freedom all thought to take our money. And they really did it good.
We could really say that Apple and Google are the companies which most abuse on it's practices.
Really hope we get a more mature public opinion and start to push for politics to do better digital laws. That's why I took my time to answer that post.
Bad example. You only get about 5 years of support from Dell. Yes, you can keep using your Dell for 10 years. No one is stopping you from using a Mac forever as well.
As for the OS, Microsoft is ending windows 10 support this year. It seems microsoft supports their operating system for about 10 years, we're not talking about a huge difference difference between Apple and MS.
By the time Apple drops MacOS support for the M1 MacBook Air, hopefully by then I'll already have a Pro-level Mac Mini desktop I'll be using at home. Then when I'm ready and have enough money, I can replace the M1 Air, hopefully with a 14-inch MacBook Pro.
I absolutely agree with this. I’m surprised Apple doesn’t offer a service like this. Some of this even include same day in person tech-support at your location. Although I’ve only seen this for businesses. Maybe there’s something similar for individuals, but I’m not sure. I know the generic tech support is absolutely terrible. I’m old enough to remember when you called Dell tech-support you got an English speaking person in the USA that actually understood you and was extremely competent. Now it’s some guy in India reading off of a script.
there’s a difference between hobbyists doing something and a multi billion or multi trillion dollar corporation doing it. If Apple is going to legally and physically support something that means they have employees to fix the problem. Billy coming up with these things in his basement isn’t responsible if something goes wrong. Also, supporting hardware longer means more training for employees. This costs more money and that cost is passed on to the consumer. Is it worth spending hundreds of thousands of dollars or even millions to train employees on computers from 2009?
If my 2014 Mac mini crashes because of something with OCLP I can’t sue and recover money for my damages. Even worse, what if my system is compromised by some flaw? If a business does something, it has to be professional, repeatable, and practical. There’s a lot of crazy things that hobbyists do that you’ll never see an actual manufacturer or do with a retail product. I love the crazy things people come up with, but you can’t expect a legitimate business to do some of these things.
I’m not sure I mentioned the 15 years. Maybe I did? The thing is Apple has to draw the line somewhere. Maybe 7 years isn’t the right place for the line. Maybe it’s 10 years or even 15? I see a few people here at least 10 as a minimum so that means 12.5?
I don't think I am. You may not like my answer, but its not wrong, especially since I'm stating my opinion.
So what you're saying is you will not be able to use your mac after 7 years? You've been a member on this forum long enough to know that there are many members using very old Macs, well beyond 10 years, never mind 7. How is apple restricting them exactly?
So we agree Apple's embrace of the ARM platform is not proprietary. They are under no compulsion to provide documentation on their machines. AFAIK, Intel doesn't provide cart blanche to everyone wanting to know the details of their CPUs, and chipsets, either. There are some aspects and details that are considered trade secrets
And as I mentioned, how many consumers ever upgraded their ram after purchase? Please explain how non-replaceable ram is locking you into an ecosystem.
The bottom line is, as a consumer, its upon you to do your own due diligence. Apple is not hiding their support, their policies, their procedures. If you want to run a specific version of Linux, or a different OS, and/or have the ability to tinker with the system, then the Mac isn't the best tool for you.
I'm not sure why you're arguing over something that isn't going to change. Bottom line, don't like how Apple operates, buy a PC. No one is forcing you to buy a Mac, that is you're not locked into an ecosystem.
Ten years+ is a good length, especially when you factor in RAM and SSD upgrades, where you otherwise don't get any value out of the 5-10 times market price they charge for it.
Also, 10 years backwards compatibility of software like Final Cut, Pages, iCloud sync,...
You should use OCLP then. Most educated customers know the Year of the Mac they bought in the “About This Mac” section. An educated guess can be made after that
