'OpenMac' Promises $399 Headless Mac... But Not From Apple

[mc3s]

Good analysis. I've toyed with the idea of throwing together a Hackintosh as a weekend project, but would probably loose interest in keeping it going thru OSX upgrades big and small. Would end up a pile of junk in a closet.

Some people might go for this based on their desire to save money and try out Mac, neglecting the fine print about limitations, etc. Down the road (probably not too far down it...) these people would get exasperated and most likely go back to Win junk.

The closest analogy I can make without resorting to cars or food would be jailbreaking the iPod Touch / iPhone. It takes awhile, is probably a little confusing and requires some research. However keeping up with all the updates is even more laborious and something I don't think everyone does or has the desire to do. You really hit it on the head suggesting that people will not want to do this especially with their primary computer. Some people enjoy it and really don't mind but that ONLY applies to those approaching this as a hobby. The limitations squarely revolve around how much work you want to put into it.

To comment on some earlier posts, to my knowledge (I don't follow all the install methods all that closely) this talk of vanilla kernel and all these happy rainbow magic words tossed around are quite misleading. As far as I know the process of installing Leopard on a Hackintosh still involves making a disc image of the install disc (.iso), applying the appropriate patches and then burning to a bootable. You then have to make the necessary adjustments to the Hackintosh's BIOS. The install should then go without a hitch, however, you may be looking at multiple updates that you need to make adjustments for. The entire process can take many hours. I don't see how Psystar can just throw in a retail copy of OSX and expect everyone to be able to install it themselves. Then there's each update you will encounter which some will damn near look forward to (hobbyists) but most will get tired of quickly. Just like jailbreaking the iPod and iPhone. Many of us may have messed around with the jailbreak but how many actually stick it out through each update or even enjoyed having to make multiple adjustments down the road?

I think we can all agree that a relatively small group of people continuing with project OSx86 and building Hackintoshs for hobbyist reasons is interesting and fun but Psystar being none too clear about what they are selling and taking the Hackintosh out of the hobbyist community is a poor decision. If we want to send a message to Apple about what we want there are better options. I wish everyone was an informed consumer like the members of this site and tried to only buy macs at update time, if everyone did that I would think Apple would update their products a little more frequently and it would certainly address my biggest complaint about the company.

 

[ewoh24]

If you leech money away from Apple, they will eventually suffer and the product they put out will suffer too. This is what I believe happened in the 90's (coupled with poor management of course). Jobs WAS right to put an end to it. This product is exceptionally tempting and a lot of people are going to take advantage of it instead of buying that Mini or iMac. How much revenue will this divert from Apple? Seems to me to be destructive cycle for both companies involved.

Say what you will about Apple's switch from PPC but this is a direct consequence of that. Less proprietary=more hackable.

 

[Sun Baked]

Wow, people are taking this whole thing very seriously from the looks of it - no joking allowed apparently!

Don't joke and compare him to quality folks, if you want to compare him to famous Mac Shysters -- there is always Jack Campbell of Mac Mice fame.

At least then you would be comparing this guy to somebody willing to do anything for a buck, or free publicity.

 

[k2spitfire88]

To comment on some earlier posts, to my knowledge (I don't follow all the install methods all that closely) this talk of vanilla kernel and all these happy rainbow magic words tossed around are quite misleading. As far as I know the process of installing Leopard on a Hackintosh still involves making a disc image of the install disc (.iso), applying the appropriate patches and then burning to a bootable. You then have to make the necessary adjustments to the Hackintosh's BIOS. The install should then go without a hitch, however, you may be looking at multiple updates that you need to make adjustments for. The entire process can take many hours. I don't see how Psystar can just throw in a retail copy of OSX and expect everyone to be able to install it themselves. Then there's each update you will encounter which some will damn near look forward to (hobbyists) but most will get tired of quickly. Just like jailbreaking the iPod and iPhone. Many of us may have messed around with the jailbreak but how many actually stick it out through each update or even enjoyed having to make multiple adjustments down the road?

I know they would have to keep up with the updates, but I believe that Psystar claims to install Leopard for you, so all you have to do is keep up with the updates, which many of the people who would buy this machine (instead of the ones who would be inclined to build a Hackintosh) would find extremely difficult and time consuming.

 

[BenRoethig]

That's because most PCs are generally faster than Macs, depending on the system configuration.

I would still have to ask what it was running however? And what were the specs of the PC?

Its because most desktop PCs are running desktop parts.

Then of course there is the reason Apple PROS use ECC memory with the HUGE heat sink. Why not use regular memory? Wait, I know, its because Server memory is more stable and less prone to errors correct?

yes, there is, they use xeon CPUs which use the 5000 and 5400 series motherboard which in turn use fully buffered DIMMS. By the way, it has nothing to do with ECC since their are ECC standard DIMMs. FB-DIMMs have some advantages over standard DIMMS at the expense of lag. You can't use rider cards with normal memory. In essence, they allow Apple to fit a full workstation in a full ATX desktop sized space without sacrificing much.

Or is it had Apple released a MAC PRO with normal 1066 or 667 FSB memory, that you could get 4 GB for less than $100? If you buy it from Apple, its $500 for 2 more gig, $1500 for 8. Shoot, even a non Xeon would have been a better option, faster FSB and cheaper memory. But hey, thats

For Apple to release a Mac Pro with normal DIMMS they would have had to use desktop core 2 with a x-series desktop motherboard. Not a bad idea for a sub-$2000 rung on the mac Pro ladder. Everyone else, including sun uses this option for single CPU workstations and higher end desktops.

 

[OllyW]

Its because most desktop PCs are running desktop parts.

That seems like a really good idea

 

[ccirelli]

That's called capitalism, mate, which the country of America is very fond of. Apple provides Bootcamp, so that its users can reap the benefits of Microsoft's work on Windows. Why shouldn't others be allowed to use MacOS when they pay for it?

Simple - because it's Apple's OS and they have the right to enforce their own EULA. When you start your own computer company, you can do as you please too.

If you don't like Apple's policy - don't buy their OS. Run Win or Linux. Why do so many people feel they are entitled to change a company's policy simply because the don't agree with it? Fascinating.

Apple = Hardware Company. They make their OS and apps so people buy their hardware. Keep that in mind, and their EULA will begin to make more sense from a business point of view.

 

[BaldiMac]

I suppose you're right, so here we go:
Mac Mini - 2.0 GHz, with SD, 120 GB HDD, and leopard stock for $799. To attempt to bring the specs in line, add $100 for RAM, $136 for after-market 250GB SATA laptop drive (Seagate from Directcanada.com), $29 for 3 port Firewire Hub (also directcanada), $41 to go from 2.0 to 2.2 GHz (difference in price on Newegg) . Total $1105.

Open Computer - 2.2 Ghz, 250 GB HDD, 2GB RAM stock for $399. Add OS for $155, $79 iLife, $18 USB bluetooth adapter, $24 for remote & USB IR receiver, $38 Turtle Beach USB optical audio card(although, from pictures, it looks as though the unit already has 5.1 surround jacks. Kind of a trade off), 3xFW for $50. Total $763.

144.8% x $763 approx= $1105

A significant difference from the original comparison, but still almost a 45% price increase. You might argue that you could sell that 120 GB drive, but most people likely would use the built in ethernet on the Open machine and would likely forego the optical audio. The point being, there will be users who need one bit, but not the other on either unit, so I'll just leave it at this noting the spec is as close as possible.

Of course, you could get the RAM from the Mini from crucial for $45.99 and an external 120GB hard drive for $60. Which brings the Mini down to 975. Add 802.11g to the Open brings that price to about $785.

Less than $200 difference (24%) for a better warranty, smaller and quieter enclosure, and the ability to use software update.

And if you want to add in "most people" usage... 2.0 v 2.2 Ghz is a negligible difference. A second and third firewire port is overkill. And we don't know if Psystar is offering free shipping or gigabit ethernet.

My point is not that one is better than the other, just that the value comparison is very close depending on your specific needs.

 

[mcavjame]

Of course, you could get the RAM from the Mini from crucial for $45.99 and an external 120GB hard drive for $60. Which brings the Mini down to 975. Add 802.11g to the Open brings that price to about $785.

Less than $200 difference (24%) for a better warranty, smaller and quieter enclosure, and the ability to use software update.

And if you want to add in "most people" usage... 2.0 v 2.2 Ghz is a negligible difference. A second and third firewire port is overkill. And we don't know if Psystar is offering free shipping or gigabit ethernet.

My point is not that one is better than the other, just that the value comparison is very close depending on your specific needs.

I think you are missing the point. I don't favor the Open system over the mini, but I also do not want unfair comparisons because we tend to lean one way or the other when we do comparisons which introduces our biases. My original post did show that there is a price difference. The revised post, based on your suggestion, attempted to bring the specs as close as possible. I missed the wireless, so thanks for that.

We were identifying, as closely as possible, the stock machines. If you quibble the infra red and remote, you have to quibble the 3 FW ports. 1 FW port does not come stock on the open, so you have to add three because it is the only option. You need to reflect that in the mini. We are doing now, what I indicated in my previous post: pointing out the elements we think we would use or not use based on personal usage.

Even wiggling the two costs to within $200 is significant. If a user is financially considering a $400 box, then $200 becomes a huge chunk of change for that person.

 

[Clive At Five]

Why do so many people feel they are entitled to change a company's policy simply because the don't agree with it? Fascinating.

It's not simply a matter of disagreeing. Some users believe Apple is actually infringing on a user's rights by attempting to limit how they can use a product they just purchased... and telling them about those limitations AFTER the non-refundable sale.

The circumstance that Apple uses the software to sell hardware and changing that would most likely damage the company... is irrelevant.

-Clive

 

[Digital Skunk]

Its because most desktop PCs are running desktop parts.

Exactly... !

For Apple to release a Mac Pro with normal DIMMS they would have had to use desktop core 2 with a x-series desktop motherboard. Not a bad idea for a sub-$2000 rung on the mac Pro ladder. Everyone else, including sun uses this option for single CPU workstations and higher end desktops.

Agreed, it would be nice to see a Mac Pro with the motherboard and chips for the quad core desktops, then leave off some of the higher end spec, or keep them in, and price the tower at around $1799. That way we are still paying the Apple premium for a quad core headless Mac, but we aren't paying $2299 for a workstation made from server parts.

 

[chickenninja]

gma 950 are you F....ing kidding me!!!!

 

[chickenninja]

It's not simply a matter of disagreeing. Some users believe Apple is actually infringing on a user's rights by attempting to limit how they can use a product they just purchased... and telling them about those limitations AFTER the non-refundable sale.

The circumstance that Apple uses the software to sell hardware and changing that would most likely damage the company... is irrelevant.

-Clive

kinda like original xbox needing a remote to play DVDs, i wonder if there will ever be a mac modchip. OSXecuter

 

[Clive At Five]

kinda like original xbox needing a remote to play DVDs, i wonder if there will ever be a mac modchip. OSXecuter

Hmm, a very interesting thought... Acquire a chip, solder it to the MB, install OS X natively.

While I believe OS X references a certain custom ship to verify a Mac's identity, I do not know how one would replicate that without either duplicating the code (copyright infringement), or simply ripping one off of an old Mac (if that's even possible).

Meanwhile, I know there's a way to disable the check via software... probably much simpler

I think the OSx86 community will acheive a native installation when the Windows worlds upgrades to an EFI-friendly OS - be it Vista SP1 or Windows 7 (it'll likely be the latter) - and hardware developers make their components EFI-compliant. So we'll probably have to wait until 2009/2010 -ish.

-Clive

 

[123]

Humm let's see.

E5462 Xeon 2.6Ghz x 2 = 1600USD. [Edit: E5462 runs at 2.8Ghz, not 2.6Ghz.]
2Gb FB-DIMM DDR2-800 = 82USD
ATi 2600XT = 60USD
Tyan Intel DP board = 400USD
Optical Super Drive = 30USD
320Gb HD = 50USD.

Sub-total= 2142 USD.

+ Leopard = 100USD
+ Case = 300USD
+ feel good factor = 200 USD
+ Superior recognition = 100USD

Grand total: 2842USD.

First off, your calculation is wrong (sub-total).

But besides doing correct math, let's also take real prices:
E5462 x2: $1700
Case: $120
2600XT: $100
i5000XT: $510
Power supply: $160
FB-DIMM: $80
Super Drive = $30
320Gb HD = $50
Leopard: $110
Keyboard: $20 (no mouse, you don't get one with a Mac either)

Total: $2880

And that's just the parts. Then there's installation, service, warranty etc... I would say the Mac Pro is pretty competitive considering the fact that it is available for just $2600 (e.g. at MacMall). So, please stop your "feel good factor" crap.

 

[digiguy23]

This is ridiculous. As long as it's not illegal to tie software to specific hardware, all this talk is a waste of time. Apple has no legal obligation to license their software just to "satisfy people" who want the OS or can't afford it. They do it for themselves, share holders and investors. You want, you pay for it. Owning a Mac is a luxury item, not a necessity that needs to be controlled for the public use.

 

[Westsider 4 Mac]

great point

Good article about the need for a mid range mac

http://www.macworld.com/article/58562/2007/06/midrangemac.html

Apple NEEDS to build a mid range tower that works in this economy.

 

[merl1n]

Anyone considering purchasing from this company had better read these articles...

http://blog.wired.com/gadgets/2008/04/fake-mac-maker.html

and...

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/technol...y_who_or_what_is_psystar_we_dig_a_little.html

Just a word of caution.

 

[Bubba Satori]

This is ridiculous. As long as it's not illegal to tie software to specific hardware, all this talk is a waste of time. Apple has no legal obligation to license their software just to "satisfy people" who want the OS or can't afford it. They do it for themselves, share holders and investors. You want, you pay for it. Owning a Mac is a luxury item, not a necessity that needs to be controlled for the public use.

" Let them eat cake." - Marie Antoinette

 

[Sky Blue]

(no mouse, you don't get one with a Mac either)

since when?

 

[MacsAttack]

" Let them eat cake." - Marie Antoinette

Urban Legend. She never said it.

 

[BaldiMac]

I think you are missing the point. I don't favor the Open system over the mini, but I also do not want unfair comparisons because we tend to lean one way or the other when we do comparisons which introduces our biases. My original post did show that there is a price difference. The revised post, based on your suggestion, attempted to bring the specs as close as possible. I missed the wireless, so thanks for that.

We were identifying, as closely as possible, the stock machines. If you quibble the infra red and remote, you have to quibble the 3 FW ports. 1 FW port does not come stock on the open, so you have to add three because it is the only option. You need to reflect that in the mini. We are doing now, what I indicated in my previous post: pointing out the elements we think we would use or not use based on personal usage.

Even wiggling the two costs to within $200 is significant. If a user is financially considering a $400 box, then $200 becomes a huge chunk of change for that person.

I think I just had a different point. Apple doesn't have the 55% or 44% markup that you calculated for the same machine. You are actually getting something for the difference in price (which I calculated within $200 or 24%). Better warranty support, a smaller and quieter enclosure, and the ability to run software update.

Pragmatically, a user can't get the Open for $400, because it doesn't come with Leopard or iLife. So in the base configurations, the Open is $554 ($630 with iLife) and the Mini is $599 with different advantages to each. Other than RAM, I don't think someone looking to buy a bottom of the line computer is going to notice much a performance difference.

On a side note, I don't really consider the infrared port and remote a niggle, because they enable the use of Front Row. I think that, combined with the form factor of the Mini, make one of it's main selling points the fact that you can use it in your entertainment system.

 

[stargurl84]

Urban Legend. She never said it.

haha i thought it really happened

 

[kkat69]

Pragmatically, a user can't get the Open for $400, because it doesn't come with Leopard or iLife. So in the base configurations, the Open is $554 ($630 with iLife) and the Mini is $599 with different advantages to each. Other than RAM, I don't think someone looking to buy a bottom of the line computer is going to notice much a performance difference.

Ahhhh words that puts things into perspective.

Aside from the company being all out shady and I wouldn't give them my worst enemy's credit card number, above is something that puts the price they claim is cheaper into better perspective with the low end Mini.

BaldiMac has a very good point. Sure you'll get a cheaper 'SYSTEM' and one you can probably upgrade yourself (albeit the parts inside are prolly cheap even by Ginstar standards, for those who know who I'm talking about) but to make an accurate comparison (which Psystar tries to do but fails when you REALLY look at it) you have to include OS, iLife (which can be bought seperately but comes with every new mac), then the niceties like at least 1yr warranty.

Somehow I doubt you'll be able to take your Open Computer down to the mall to your local Psystar Store next to Victoria secrets and have a Psystar Genius look at it to see whats wrong.

When comparing you have to look at all facets of it. Heck I can make a Hackintosh cheaper than what Psystar is selling theirs, but add in all the things that make it close to compare to a mac mini and the price is negligible.

 

[123]

since when?

Sorry, of course you do, just not one I would consider using.