Optical Thunderbolt 3 Cables Begin Rolling Out in Lengths Up to 50 Meters

[Kabeyun]

Here's a use case: I'm mounting my new LG 4K monitor on the office wall and will run a Thunderbolt to my Mini which is in the closet. For reasons we don't need to get into, the cable run must be at least 20 feet. I doubt I'd need T3 speeds, but can anyone confirm T2 will work fine in this instance? I did notice some reliability concerns with the Corning T2 cables. It might actually be worth it to me to buy an Areca cable, not for T3 bandwidth but, if they're rock solid, to avoid a crapped out cable stuck in my wall.

 

[William Lawson]

Here's a use case: I'm mounting my new LG 4K monitor on the office wall and will run a Thunderbolt to my Mini which is in the closet. For reasons we don't need to get into, the cable run must be at least 20 feet. I doubt I'd need T3 speeds, but can anyone confirm T2 will work fine in this instance? I did notice some reliability concerns with the Corning T2 cables. It might actually be worth it to me to buy an Areca cable, not for T3 bandwidth but, if they're rock solid, to avoid a crapped out cable stuck in my wall.

The new Corning Optical Thunderbolt 3 is rock solid, I am running a 30m to a remote TB3 dock with a bunch of stuff attached to it including a 65' 4K panel and a Kinect, way over TB2 speeds and the cable runs noticeably cooler than its TB2 counterpart.. I am testing this cable for over 6 months and really happy with it. Corning just launched them but can only be found with some ProAV resellers in the US and Europe.
This is a good place to start: www.criticalconnects.com

 

[yellow_lupine]

The new Corning Optical Thunderbolt 3 is rock solid, I am running a 30m to a remote TB3 dock with a bunch of stuff attached to it including a 65' 4K panel and a Kinect, way over TB2 speeds and the cable runs noticeably cooler than its TB2 counterpart.. I am testing this cable for over 6 months and really happy with it. Corning just launched them but can only be found with some ProAV resellers in the US and Europe.
This is a good place to start: www.criticalconnects.com

Hi William,

can you tell me what is the diameter of the cable?
I'm planning to buy one of those and run it across the wall. How much can it be bent? Does it support 90 degrees bending?

Thanks

 

[William Lawson]

Hi William,

can you tell me what is the diameter of the cable?
I'm planning to buy one of those and run it across the wall. How much can it be bent? Does it support 90 degrees bending?

Thanks

it's about 3.2mm and it can handle 90 degree tight bends, mine runs across several 90 degree corners and the last 10m coiled behind the 4k monitor where the CalDigit TB3 dock is.

 

[jimthing]

The new Corning Optical Thunderbolt 3 is rock solid, I am running a 30m to a remote TB3 dock with a bunch of stuff attached to it including a 65' 4K panel and a Kinect, way over TB2 speeds and the cable runs noticeably cooler than its TB2 counterpart.. I am testing this cable for over 6 months and really happy with it. Corning just launched them but can only be found with some ProAV resellers in the US and Europe.
This is a good place to start: www.criticalconnects.com

What's the pricing (US/UK/EU)? That link is just an advert page.

 

[MaverickRK]

Here's a use case: I'm mounting my new LG 4K monitor on the office wall and will run a Thunderbolt to my Mini which is in the closet. For reasons we don't need to get into, the cable run must be at least 20 feet. I doubt I'd need T3 speeds, but can anyone confirm T2 will work fine in this instance? I did notice some reliability concerns with the Corning T2 cables. It might actually be worth it to me to buy an Areca cable, not for T3 bandwidth but, if they're rock solid, to avoid a crapped out cable stuck in my wall.

I think it depends on the connectors on your monitor; i.e. is it a true Thunderbolt-2 device, or are you going to convert the TB-2 signal to something else using an adapter or device of some kind.

I run two 4K@60Hz monitors from my 2019 MacPro Thunderbolt-3 ports, using two Apple TB-3 to TB-2 adapters into two 10m Corning TB-2 cables then two more Apple TB-2 to TB-3 adapters, and then into two CalDigit TS3 Plus docks, and then finally using two DisplayPort cables from the docks to the monitors. (A very expensive solution, but it works.). A 4K@60Hz signal requires a little over 17GB of bandwidth, which is the reason I could not support both monitors with a single TB-2 cable, as the maximum bandwidth is 20GB. So the bandwidth of the cable will support your single 4K monitor.

I tried taking out one of the docks by connecting the monitor end of the optical fiber TB-2 cable into a Mini DisplayPort Female to Male DisplayPort adapter, then into a powered repeater, and finally to the DisplayPort cable of the monitor but that did not work as the Apple TB3 to TB2 does not carry DisplayPort signals. It is only for Thunderbolt devices. From Apple's product overview: "This adapter does not support DisplayPort displays like the Apple LED Cinema Display or third-party DisplayPort and Mini DisplayPort displays."

If your monitor can take a TB2 input directly, as it is the same connector as a Mini DisplayPort, then it should work. Or if you are plugging the TB2 cable into a device like a dock connected to your monitor, it should also work.

I am waiting for the TB-3 optical cable so I can take one of the docks out of my system, and drive both monitors from my single dock (1 DisplayPort and 1 USB-C). But I will wait for Corning as I do not want to buy such an expensive cable from a manufacturer with whom I am not familiar, and have to try and deal with warranty issues should it go bad.

 

[MaverickRK]

Can anybody give examples of uses for these cables?

I need to run two 4K@60Hz monitors from my 2019 MacPro which is in a data closet across the room. The wiring between the two has to run through conduits in the wall, and that requires about 30 feet, or just under 10 meters. Each monitor requires just over 17Gb of bandwidth, so I cannot run it through just one TB-2 optical cable as that only carries a maximum of 20GB.

The way I currently have this set up is: 2019 MacPro Thunderbolt-3 ports > two Apple TB-3 to TB-2 adapters > two 10m Corning TB-2 cables > two more Apple TB-2 to TB-3 adapters > two CalDigit TS3 Plus docks > two DisplayPort cables > monitors. It is very expensive solution, but it works for the displays. The presence of the two docks though messes with the audio preferences (also connected to one of the docks), and seems to wreak havoc when I do hardware calibration of the monitors.

I am also concerned about the thermal dumping issue with the TB-2 connections that I am reading about, which apparently shorten the life of these expensive cables. Although it may not actually be a problem with my configuration because as I understand it, it is the TB-2 device which is doing the thermal dumping, and I am actually connected to TB-3 devices using the TB3 to TB2 adapters. Does anyone know if this is the case? i.e. That I should not have a problem with the thermal dumping in my configuration?

So I am hoping to get a single Corning TB-3 cable carrying 40GB which will let me take one of the docks out of the system, and run one monitor from the dock's DisplayPort connector, and the other from the USB-C connector.

 

[Kabeyun]

I think it depends on the connectors on your monitor; i.e. is it a true Thunderbolt-2 device, or are you going to convert the TB-2 signal to something else using an adapter or device of some kind.

I run two 4K@60Hz monitors from my 2019 MacPro Thunderbolt-3 ports, using two Apple TB-3 to TB-2 adapters into two 10m Corning TB-2 cables then two more Apple TB-2 to TB-3 adapters, and then into two CalDigit TS3 Plus docks, and then finally using two DisplayPort cables from the docks to the monitors. (A very expensive solution, but it works.). A 4K@60Hz signal requires a little over 17GB of bandwidth, which is the reason I could not support both monitors with a single TB-2 cable, as the maximum bandwidth is 20GB. So the bandwidth of the cable will support your single 4K monitor.

I tried taking out one of the docks by connecting the monitor end of the optical fiber TB-2 cable into a Mini DisplayPort Female to Male DisplayPort adapter, then into a powered repeater, and finally to the DisplayPort cable of the monitor but that did not work as the Apple TB3 to TB2 does not carry DisplayPort signals. It is only for Thunderbolt devices. From Apple's product overview: "This adapter does not support DisplayPort displays like the Apple LED Cinema Display or third-party DisplayPort and Mini DisplayPort displays."

If your monitor can take a TB2 input directly, as it is the same connector as a Mini DisplayPort, then it should work. Or if you are plugging the TB2 cable into a device like a dock connected to your monitor, it should also work.

I am waiting for the TB-3 optical cable so I can take one of the docks out of my system, and drive both monitors from my single dock (1 DisplayPort and 1 USB-C). But I will wait for Corning as I do not want to buy such an expensive cable from a manufacturer with whom I am not familiar, and have to try and deal with warranty issues should it go bad.

Both the LG monitor and the Mac mini are T3 devices with T3 (USB-C) ports. The Corning T2 cable would need the $50 adapter at both ends, but adding $100 to the cost of a $215 cable is still cheaper than Areca’s $560 T3 cable. Although it seems that the former solution, yours, would be fine with my single 4K monitor, I remain concerned about the crappy reputation of Corning’s optical T2 cable. I’m glad you’ve had a good experience so far, so maybe you shouldn’t look up the reviews! So it looks like I’m stuck between two unappealing answers: very expensive and untested, or pretty expensive and unreliable.

 

[jimthing]

Both the LG monitor and the Mac mini are T3 devices with T3 (USB-C) ports. The Corning T2 cable would need the $50 adapter at both ends, but adding $100 to the cost of a $215 cable is still cheaper than Areca’s $560 T3 cable. Although it seems that the former solution, yours, would be fine with my single 4K monitor, I remain concerned about the crappy reputation of Corning’s optical T2 cable. I’m glad you’ve had a good experience so far, so maybe you shouldn’t look up the reviews! So it looks like I’m stuck between two unappealing answers: very expensive and untested, or pretty expensive and unreliable.

I've used several Corning T2 optical cables and they've all worked fine. So I wouldn't worry about it, if that's the solution to your problem.

(I actually have a 60m (200ft) unused spare boxed Corning optical available, that cost over $1K new, that I don't need, and would offer anyone here for $250, for quick sale. Hit me up if interested.)

 

[michaelzoradi]

Hello all,

Just came across this thread in my research for a TB3 cable just a *bit* longer than 2 meters... So much good info here, thank you to all who have posted!

So if I understand things correctly there is currently no way to connect a 2019 Mac Pro and Pro Display XDR at 6K resolution with a TB3 cable more than 2 meters... is that correct?

If so what a bummer I'm in the process of revamping my home studio and would like to place my Mac Pro and Pro Display XDR about 3-4 meters apart from each other. Can't believe that nearly 4 years after the introduction of TB3 in 2016 that there still isn't a simple solution.

Anyone know if Areca has been able to update the firmware in the optical TB3 cables so that they support 6K resolutions now? I saw that @composed said that as of March 2020 this was still in the works so I guess I'm just hoping that now, in mid-May, we may be closer. I don't want to spend nearly $600 for a 10m cable (when I only need 3-4m) but if that's the only option I guess I'll go for it (just want to confirm if the firmware has been updated before actually doing that).

@jimthing Any chance the cable you got from www.criticalconnects.com supports 6K between a 2019 Mac Pro and Pro Display XDR at length over 2m? Doesn't hurt to ask.

 

[jimthing]

Hello all,

Just came across this thread in my research for a TB3 cable just a *bit* longer than 2 meters... So much good info here, thank you to all who have posted!

So if I understand things correctly there is currently no way to connect a 2019 Mac Pro and Pro Display XDR at 6K resolution with a TB3 cable more than 2 meters... is that correct?

If so what a bummer I'm in the process of revamping my home studio and would like to place my Mac Pro and Pro Display XDR about 3-4 meters apart from each other. Can't believe that nearly 4 years after the introduction of TB3 in 2016 that there still isn't a simple solution.

Anyone know if Areca has been able to update the firmware in the optical TB3 cables so that they support 6K resolutions now? I saw that @composed said that as of March 2020 this was still in the works so I guess I'm just hoping that now, in mid-May, we may be closer. I don't want to spend nearly $600 for a 10m cable (when I only need 3-4m) but if that's the only option I guess I'll go for it (just want to confirm if the firmware has been updated before actually doing that).

@jimthing Any chance the cable you got from www.criticalconnects.com supports 6K between a 2019 Mac Pro and Pro Display XDR at length over 2m? Doesn't hurt to ask.

...that was @William Lawson who quoted that supplier.

Still waiting for Corning to release. What's keeping them, one has to wonder?

 

[Kabeyun]

Can anybody give examples of uses for these cables?

I'm not an IT professional, but I do have a wall-mounted LG monitor which I want to connect through the walls to my Mac mini in the closet. For architectural reasons the cable must run up between studs, across in the ceiling, and down through the closet wall. The monitor input is TB3 only, so TB2 or HDMI aren't options. With TB2 to TB3 adapters at either end I could go with a Corning TB2 optical for half the price of the Areca, but they have concerning reliability reviews (then again these Areca cables are pretty new and have only a 1year warranty, so who knows). So here's a use case. I only wish they'd realize there's a sweet spot between 2m and 10m lengths!

 

[jimthing]

I'm not an IT professional, but I do have a wall-mounted LG monitor which I want to connect through the walls to my Mac mini in the closet. For architectural reasons the cable must run up between studs, across in the ceiling, and down through the closet wall. The monitor input is TB3 only, so TB2 or HDMI aren't options. With TB2 to TB3 adapters at either end I could go with a Corning TB2 optical for half the price of the Areca, but they have concerning reliability reviews (then again these Areca cables are pretty new and have only a 1year warranty, so who knows). So here's a use case. I only wish they'd realize there's a sweet spot between 2m and 10m lengths!

See my previous post:

I've used several Corning T2 optical cables and they've all worked fine. So I wouldn't worry about it, if that's the solution to your problem.

(I actually have a 60m (200ft) unused spare boxed Corning optical available, that cost over $1K new, that I don't need, and would offer anyone here for $250, for quick sale. Hit me up if interested.)

I can send you some pix if interested. Double-boxed with fast ship to US in that price (marked as $10, so no tax duties/customs delays your end! ;-)

 

[jimthing]

Highly annoyingly, it looks like they're doing the WORST price gauging strategies for these cables:
So called 'minimum pricing' is the spawn of the devil in marketing, to get the most out of customers!

Here's one of several similar pre-order price listings (a UK one), for Corning's T3 optical cables:
https://www.eastwoodsoundandvision....nderbolt+3+Optical+Cable&product_list_dir=asc

5.5m (18ft) = £384
10m (33ft) = £396 (+£12)
20m (66ft) = £417 (+£21)
30m (98ft) = £438 (+£21)
50m (164ft) = £500 (+£62)
---------------------> (+£116) or just 30% more, between smallest to biggest.

Thus some examples:
- 50m is only 30% more than the 5.5m (9x its length!) – biggest vs. smallest.
- 30m is only 14% more than the 5.5m (over 5x its length).
- 30m is only 11% more than the 10m one (3x its length).

For comparison, the 10m T2 optical sold for ~£250, and now they're asking nearly £400 for the T3 optical version of the same thing, i.e. nearly 40% more. So they're clearly tempting customers to get a longer one than really needed for marginally extra, say a 30m for £438 – which is actually then 75% higher than the 10m T2 one was. Crafty as hell.

Same negative customer thing we're seeing more & more all over the place, on even the smallest of items, especially coffee shops:
$3.00 small
$3.25 medium
$3.50 large
$3.75 x-large

...$0.75 = 25% more, between smallest & largest.

 

[glowplug]

Highly annoyingly, it looks like they're doing the WORST price gauging strategies for these cables:
So called 'minimum pricing' is the spawn of the devil in marketing, to get the most out of customers!

Here's one of several similar pre-order price listings (a UK one), for Corning's T3 optical cables:
https://www.eastwoodsoundandvision....nderbolt+3+Optical+Cable&product_list_dir=asc

5.5m (18ft) = £384
10m (33ft) = £396 (+£12)
20m (66ft) = £417 (+£21)
30m (98ft) = £438 (+21)
50m (164ft) = £500 (+62)
------------> = (+£116 or just 30% more, between smallest to biggest)

Thus some examples:
- 50m is only 30% more than the 5.5m (9x its length!) – biggest vs. smallest.
- 30m is only 14% more than the 5.5m (over 5x its length).
- 30m is only 11% more than the 10m one (3x its length).


Same negative customer thing we're seeing more & more all over the place, on even the smallest of items, especially coffee shops:
$3.00 small
$3.25 medium
$3.50 large
$3.75 x-large

...$0.75 = 25% more, between smallest & largest.

I’m not sure I follow. The bulk of the manufacturing cost for these cables is in the end components, while the incremental cost of another 40m of optical fiber is nearly negligible by comparison. So why shouldn’t the customer’s retail price reflect the true manufacturing cost?

Same with coffee, incremental cost for water and coffee beans is minimal, while labor is the largest component and is the same whether pouring 12oz or 20oz.

 

[jimthing]

[...]Corning's T3 optical cables: https://www.eastwoodsoundandvision....nderbolt+3+Optical+Cable&product_list_dir=asc

5.5m (18ft) = £384
10m (33ft) = £396 (+£12)
20m (66ft) = £417 (+£21)
30m (98ft) = £438 (+£21)
50m (164ft) = £500 (+£62)
---------------------> (+£116) or just 30% more, between smallest to biggest.

Thus some examples:
- 50m is only 30% more than the 5.5m (9x its length!) – biggest vs. smallest.
- 30m is only 14% more than the 5.5m (over 5x its length).
- 30m is only 11% more than the 10m one (3x its length).

For comparison, the 10m T2 optical sold for ~£250, and now they're asking nearly £400 for the T3 optical version of the same thing, i.e. nearly 40% more. So they're clearly tempting customers to get a longer one than really needed for marginally extra, say a 30m for £438 – which is actually then 75% higher than the 10m T2 one was. Crafty as hell.
[...]

I’m not sure I follow. The bulk of the manufacturing cost for these cables is in the end components, while the incremental cost of another 40m of optical fiber is nearly negligible by comparison. So why shouldn’t the customer’s retail price reflect the true manufacturing cost?

Same with coffee, incremental cost for water and coffee beans is minimal, while labor is the largest component and is the same whether pouring 12oz or 20oz.

Maybe for coffee. But for these cables, if that was true, then they'd have done the same with the previous T2 optical cables pricing strategy, which they didn't. On release, they were roughly:

5.5m = £175
10m = £250 (+£75)
30m = £600 (+£350)
60m = £1100 (+500)
--------------> (+£925) or 530% more, between smallest to biggest.

They obviously realise most users likely need the 10m one, so have priced the T3 bottom lengths higher, and the top ones lower, to maximise the minimum spend (thus increased margin) at ~£400.
Also tempting users to spend 'that bit extra' to get a longer length (for future possibilities extra length may offer them).


Hardly any advertising these for sale yet (shipping from mid-June onwards, it looks like). I'm simply going to wait longer to see what the prices do across the various brands of competition, and differing sales channels.

Especially as they are entirely unproven – e.g. did Linus Tech even keep his review unit on his home server, or did he swap it out for something else (like 10GbE, for example?). Anyone know...?

 

[Alan Wynn]

Ethernet 6 and 7 cabling is obviously dramatically cheaper, and can achieve speeds of 10G, but buying 10G switches is currently still very expensive.

Ubiquiti has some very reasonably priced 10Gb/s switches, cheaper than these cables. However, these will support 40Gb/s and that is still more expensive.

But, it has the advantage that you don't have to re-wire your houses and ethernet is much more flexible in various spider connections (anything links to anything). If everything was done correctly, it might just work. However, many home installations were not cabled correctly, and might not be able to actually support 10Gb/s, and even fewer will support 40Gb/s or 100Gb/s Ethernet.

By contrast, these 50m cables are very expensive, but the hubs would presumably be standard jobs and inexpensive - but more likely intended for point to point applications, such as eGPU or backup in a different room.

As well as anyone who needs 40Gb/s without the Ethernet and IP contention.

 

[jimthing]

When are most of these becoming available?

Most sites globally (well, US/UK/EU) don't have them, and those that do either only have the Areca "coming soon" or backordered. Haven't seen the Corning one even advertised on their Thunderbolt website, yet??

Covid-19 shouldn't have affected production/release/distribution of them, surely, given mostly bought online...?

Their release is truly endlessly agonising. :-|

 

[jimthing]

PSA: Corning have finally(!) actually announced their offerings.
(though still not widely available yet it seems, certainly from any mainstream suppliers you've ever heard of!).
https://www.corning.com/optical-cab...e/en/products/thunderbolt-optical-cables.html
(useful Reddit thread: here)

Part Numbers - Thunderbolt 3 USB-C Optical Cable.
AOC-CCU6JPN005M20 - 5 m (16 ft)
AOC-CCU6JPN010M20 - 10 m (33 ft)
AOC-CCU6JPN015M20 - 15 m (49 ft)
AOC-CCU6JPN025M20 - 25 m (82 ft)
AOC-CCU6JPN050M20 - 50 m (165 ft)

So seemingly they've changed the lengths compared to what's been pre-advertised on various vendors pre-order pages.
https://www.corning.com/microsites/coc/ocbc/Documents/OEM-062-A4-AEN.pdf

 

[jimthing]

B&H Photo have updated prices for the Corning ones, as of 2020.Jul.23.Thu [UPDATED: as of 2021.Feb.18.Thu]:
ALL Optical Cables by Corning Thunderbolt 3 USB-C Optical Cables

5m: Optical Cables by Corning Thunderbolt 3 USB-C Optical Cable (16.4')
MFR#: COR-AOC-CCU6JPN005M20 / B&H#: OPTB3UCOC16
$360 - Special Order - Expected availability: 7-14 business days

+$10:
10m: Optical Cables by Corning Thunderbolt 3 USB-C Optical Cable (32.8')
MFR#: COR-AOC-CCU6JPN010M20 / B&H#: OPTB3UCOC32
$370 - Special Order - Expected availability: 7-14 business days

+$20 / +$30 (from 5m):
15m: Optical Cables by Corning Thunderbolt 3 USB-C Optical Cable (49.2')
MFR#: COR-AOC-CCU6JPN015M20 / B&H#: OPTB3UCOC49
$390 - Special Order - Expected availability: 7-14 business days

+$20 / +$50 (from 5m):
25m: Optical Cables by Corning Thunderbolt 3 USB-C Optical Cable (82')
MFR#: COR-AOC-CCU6JPN025M20 / B&H#: OPTB3UCOC82
$410 - Special Order - Expected availability: 7-14 business days

+$70 / +$120 (from 5m):
50m: Optical Cables by Corning Thunderbolt 3 USB-C Optical Cable (164')
MFR#: COR-AOC-CCU6JPN050M20 / B&H#: OPTB3UCOC164
$480 - Special Order - Expected availability: 7-14 business days

So no one's got one yet? Seemingly mostly a special order item.

 

[jimthing]

Update: Looks like availability is now delayed until mid-late Sep. :-/

 

[dubaimac]

anyone know if the firmware has been updated to support 6k XDR displays yet?

 

[michaelzoradi]

anyone know if the firmware has been updated to support 6k XDR displays yet?

I got my 5m Corning optical TB3 today and tested it tonight between my 2019 Mac Pro and Pro Display XDR... sorry to report that it only worked up to 5K resolution (no 6K). Super disappointed because I was really hoping that 6K would be supported... I'm not even exactly sure how one would go about updating the firmware on a cable if Corning were to add support in the future.

At this point I'm buying more 5m cables for my multiple 8-bay RAIDs (the 5m cable works great for those... just tested tonight!) but am not purchasing one for my Pro Display XDR.

 

[joevt]

I got my 5m Corning optical TB3 today and tested it tonight between my 2019 Mac Pro and Pro Display XDR... sorry to report that it only worked up to 5K resolution (no 6K). Super disappointed because I was really hoping that 6K would be supported... I'm not even exactly sure how one would go about updating the firmware on a cable if Corning were to add support in the future.

At this point I'm buying more 5m cables for my multiple 8-bay RAIDs (the 5m cable works great for those... just tested tonight!) but am not purchasing one for my Pro Display XDR.

Even though the cable is 40 Gbps?

The XDR doesn't work at 6K with non-DSC GPU when you have a Thunderbolt 3 dock between the Mac and the XDR. Somehow, the optical cable has the same behaviour even though it doesn't have a Thunderbolt controller inside it?

 

[jimthing]

I got my 5m Corning optical TB3 today and tested it tonight between my 2019 Mac Pro and Pro Display XDR... sorry to report that it only worked up to 5K resolution (no 6K). Super disappointed because I was really hoping that 6K would be supported... I'm not even exactly sure how one would go about updating the firmware on a cable if Corning were to add support in the future.

At this point I'm buying more 5m cables for my multiple 8-bay RAIDs (the 5m cable works great for those... just tested tonight!) but am not purchasing one for my Pro Display XDR.

FYI, if it was me, as it'd be useful in future usage in case I wanted my devices longer than 5m away (eg. to reduce noise or another issue), I'd spend the extra $10/$30 per cable, and buy 10 or 15m ones (see my post just above yours). Of course, that's your choice though! ;-)

BTW, got any pix of the cable/packaging, as none are seemingly available via Google... ?