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pfft, physics does my brain in, i guess thats why im doing an A level in it.

anyhu, its got to be impossible right? i mean, the scientists who make this claim must be in one of two state of minds:

1 - They have such a great desire for this to work, that they actually beleive that it does work.

2 - Money money money
 

In the case of the atomic bomb, matter is being converted to energy.

In the other cases, they are chemical processes where matter is conserved, but energy is being released from the stored energy in the chemical bonds.

There are three sources of energy on the Earth:
Energy that is already stored here in chemical or nuclear form,
Solar energy that arrives from the Sun,
Gravitational force from the Sun and Moon.
(We'll ignore cosmic radiation, radio emissions from pulsars etc. as being insignificant)

Solar energy (direct solar, hydro and photosynthesis) and tidal energy generation (gravitation) are obviously the cleanest, because they tap into the external sources and do not required depleting, burning, or fissioning our existing stores of energy.

Everything else requires taking something on Earth and depleting it to a lower energy state. The big problems are storage and transmission, the losses there, and the inefficiencies and waste products of generation.
 
A public showing of the device was announced for July 2007 in London. Hopefully they will go through with it.

jon
 
What about electrons orbiting the nucleus of an atom?
Until that atom breaks down etc...
I'm not trying to prove you wrong, I've just been wondering about that for a while, now.

Quick physics lesson:

Electrons don't really orbit around the nucleus, like the moon around the Earth. This was actually a conundrum in physics for awhile in the 19th century, when moving charges were discovered to radiate energy. The thinking was that since the electron must be losing energy as it 'orbits' around, eventually it ought to spiral into the center and annihilate.

Quantum mechanics came along and was used to solve this mystery. So, rest assured that the electron isn't actually in motion in any conventional sense of the word.


As for the example of things in space: space is not a vacuum. It is a very very low pressure region, but there are still plenty of particles moving through it, and thus friction exists. Planetary orbits are not energy-lossless either, and that is why satellites eventually (once they use up their fuel) will fall back to Earth.
 
What about electrons orbiting the nucleus of an atom?
Until that atom breaks down etc...

What about movement in space? What factors (assuming an object doesn't enter any orbit) reduce movement? There's no air resistance or friction.

I'm not trying to prove you wrong, I've just been wondering about that for a while, now.

I was thinking the same things. :)

But perpetual motion violates the 1st law of thermodynamics in that a ball would create its own energy to keep it rolling. If you threw a ball in space, the initial throw is the energy given to keep it going barring any outside influences, so as far as I know that doesn't fall under any definition of perpetual motion..that I know of.

As for the electrons around a nucleus, there may be a little debate as to whether there are actual electron particles spinning around the nucleus or if electrons are just a negative electric field. In that case its just an electric field not a perpetual motion machine. Otherwise it would just transfer energy into heat or light. Anyone feel free to correct any of the points I've made, its been a while since my college chemistry courses. :D

edit: gauchogolfer said it a little more concise than I did... oh well.
 
A public showing of the device was announced for July 2007 in London. Hopefully they will go through with it.


We will be demonstrating it at the MacRumors London Picnic where a self-fueled still will be created that runs entirely off the fumes of the breaths of the participants.
 
In the case of the atomic bomb, matter is being converted to energy.

Just a small point about the atom bomb. When a nuclear bomb goes off the Uranium or Plutonium atoms (matter) split into smaller atoms. When this happens some free particles are released and causes nearby Uranium/Plutonium atoms to split. The process is progressive for as long as there is Uranium or Plutonium. The matter is merely converted from one form of matter to another form matter. The deal is that the sum of energy the other matter has is less then the energy the uranium or plutonium had. Where did that missing energy go? EM radiation and kinetic energy, hence the huge explosion.

So no the uranium or plutonium of an atomic bomb doesn't get converted into energy. It gets converted into smaller forms of matter (smaller atoms) and energy is released to other things as a result.

To turn matter into energy proper, you'd have to fling it at the speed of light (c^2).
 
Perhaps no energy is being created. Perhaps it harnesses energy that we weren't aware of? We only stumbled across the previously unknown "invisible light" of X-rays inadvertently, why not something similar now?

I'm highly sceptical too, but I don't see how people can dismiss this out of hand without knowing more.
 
Just a small point about the atom bomb. When a nuclear bomb goes off the Uranium or Plutonium atoms (matter) split into smaller atoms. When this happens some free particles are released and causes nearby Uranium/Plutonium atoms to split. The process is progressive for as long as there is Uranium or Plutonium. The matter is merely converted from one form of matter to another form matter. The deal is that the sum of energy the other matter has is less then the energy the uranium or plutonium had. Where did that missing energy go? EM radiation and kinetic energy, hence the huge explosion.

So no the uranium or plutonium of an atomic bomb doesn't get converted into energy. It gets converted into smaller forms of matter (smaller atoms) and energy is released to other things as a result.

To turn matter into energy proper, you'd have to fling it at the speed of light (c^2).

Ummm... link

"Mass is not conserved in a nuclear reaction. The products formed during nuclear fission have a slightly lower mass, due to the nuclear mass defect. This nuclear mass defect can be used to determine the nuclear binding energy which held the heavier nucleus together and was released when fission occurred."

The tremendous energy released comes as a result of a tiny amount of nuclear mass being converted to energy. Otherwise, it would be a normal chemical (non-nuclear) reaction. (note: We're not talking about the Uranium being consumed as we perceive a log on the fireplace is consumed [even though it isn't really, matter is conserved in the CO2 it gives off]. If ALL of the uranium mass in a reactor or a bomb were converted to energy, rather than that tiny amount, then there would be nothing left of the planet...)
 
Its not that in certain circumstances motion can be kept on for a very very long time: its the claim that energy can be extracted from such a system and it will keep running.

Bottom line: In any system Energy in = Energy out when you sum up all the inputs (chemical, solar, heat, mechanical etc) and outputs (including losses to friction, waste heat, etc.) The only exception to this is if you convert mass to energy in the form of nuclear fusion or fission - even then you are "creating" energy by consuming a fuel.

All you are doing in any type of device is converting energy stored in one form, to energy expended as work or stored in another form. And in no case is there 100% efficiency.

Just to be a niggler, I take issue with your assertion that "In any system Energy in = Energy out". I think I understand what you meant to say, but what you actually said is a bit misleading.

A system's energy inputs and outputs do not have to balance. When the input is greater than the output, work is being done on the system; when its output is greater than its input, work is being done by the system. When we are speaking of an interaction between two systems, the energy lost by one system is equal to the energy gained by the other. Minus friction, of course ;)


I know someone (CanadaRAM?) already addressed this, but I feel I can add something. Conservation of Matter is a "law" in the same sense as Newton's laws: neither are actually 100% correct. They do, however, provide fabulous approximations in everyday circumstances, including most scientific experiments up until the twentieth century.

Conservation of Matter breaks down when we get to the nuclear and quantum scale, as do Newton's laws. Relative velocities between reference frames also place error in Newton's laws and Conservation of Matter. So really, it's not that Conservation of Matter and Newton's laws are wrong...they are just incomplete.

Even something as irrefutable as Conservation of Energy isn't always so at the quantum level. By Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, Conservation of Energy can be violated for extremely short periods of time...so short, in fact, that by the Uncertainty Principle, we would never be able to measure it anyway :p
 
Quantum mechanics came along and was used to solve this mystery. So, rest assured that the electron isn't actually in motion in any conventional sense of the word.

Was never good with quantum, so I'll ask now: Is it because electrons don't really exist at any particular place until you try to find it? After all, electrons have an equal chance of existing anywhere in the universe.

Just a small point about the atom bomb. When a nuclear bomb goes off the Uranium or Plutonium atoms (matter) split into smaller atoms. When this happens some free particles are released and causes nearby Uranium/Plutonium atoms to split. The process is progressive for as long as there is Uranium or Plutonium. The matter is merely converted from one form of matter to another form matter. The deal is that the sum of energy the other matter has is less then the energy the uranium or plutonium had. Where did that missing energy go? EM radiation and kinetic energy, hence the huge explosion.

So no the uranium or plutonium of an atomic bomb doesn't get converted into energy. It gets converted into smaller forms of matter (smaller atoms) and energy is released to other things as a result.

To turn matter into energy proper, you'd have to fling it at the speed of light (c^2).

To comment on what you said and what CanadaRAM said, I believe that Uranium or Plutonium bombs release their energy from the Uranium splitting into smaller particles, which releases energy because the binding energy that keeps the nucleus together is exponentially smaller than the energy required to keep a smaller particle together. So for example, a nucleus with 80 protons required more than twice as much energy to keep it together when compared to an atom with 40 protons (say around 2.5 times, for example), and this is provided by the neutrons in the nucleus, which also does not increase linearly with size. So a 40 proton nucleus may have 40 neutrons in it, but an 80 proton nucleus may have 120 neutrons with it.

When the bomb goes off, the uranium is essentially being split into 2 smaller particles, and the extra binding energy provided by the excess neutrons is converted into energy, which is why the sum of the mass of the particles does not add up after an explosion. So when my 80 proton nucleus breaks down into two 40 proton nuclei, the binding energy of each particle is less than half of the energy of the original 80 proton nucleus. Since the 80 proton nucleus required 2.5x more energy than a 40 proton nucleus to keep it together, the extra 0.5x energy not used by the two 40 proton nuclei is seen as the "explosion". Again, this difference in energy is from the extra neutrons required for the 80 proton nucleus, but aren't required by the two 40 proton nuclei. The energy of the neutrons is essentially the "explosion", which is why the mass of the fission fragments don't add up to the mass of the Uranium.

Basically, I obeygiant is correct, but CanadaRAM brings up an important point that obeygiant may have actually mentioned without going into enough detail for it to be obvious upon initial reading. :eek:
 
To comment on what you said and what CanadaRAM said, I believe that Uranium or Plutonium bombs release their energy from the Uranium splitting into smaller particles, which releases energy because the binding energy that keeps the nucleus together is exponentially smaller than the energy required to keep a smaller particle together. So for example, a nucleus with 80 protons required more than twice as much energy to keep it together when compared to an atom with 40 protons (say around 2.5 times, for example), and this is provided by the neutrons in the nucleus, which also does not increase linearly with size. So a 40 proton nucleus may have 40 neutrons in it, but an 80 proton nucleus may have 120 neutrons with it.

When the bomb goes off, the uranium is essentially being split into 2 smaller particles, and the extra binding energy provided by the excess neutrons is converted into energy, which is why the sum of the mass of the particles does not add up after an explosion. So when my 80 proton nucleus breaks down into two 40 proton nuclei, the binding energy of each particle is less than half of the energy of the original 80 proton nucleus. Since the 80 proton nucleus required 2.5x more energy than a 40 proton nucleus to keep it together, the extra 0.5x energy not used by the two 40 proton nuclei is seen as the "explosion". Again, this difference in energy is from the extra neutrons required for the 80 proton nucleus, but aren't required by the two 40 proton nuclei. The energy of the neutrons is essentially the "explosion", which is why the mass of the fission fragments don't add up to the mass of the Uranium.

Basically, I obeygiant is correct, but CanadaRAM brings up an important point that obeygiant may have actually mentioned without going into enough detail for it to be obvious upon initial reading. :eek:

The concept of binding energy per nucleon is much more important in understanding nuclear reactions than binding energy per nucleus.

Also, I think you have misunderstood what binding energy is. Binding energy should not be thought of as energy that a given nucleus has, but rather as energy that a given nucleus lacks. The "higher" (read: lower) the binding energy of a given atom, the more stable it will be. In the link above, notice that the graph of Relative Stability of Nucleus (i.e., binding energy in MeV) vs. Atomic Mass peaks around 56 amu, which corresponds to iron. This is why iron has the most stable nucleus of all known elements (and all elements likely to be discovered, judging by the trend in the graph).

In a U-235 fission process, we go from a single nucleus with binding energy per nucleon around 7.6 MeV/amu to two nuclei fragments (say Barium and Krypton), which correspond to binding energies per nucleon of 8.2 MeV/amu and 8.5 MeV/amu, respectively. So with the U-235 (neglecting incident neutron), we had:

binding energy = 235amu * -7.6MeV/amu = -1786MeV

For the two products (neglecting expelled neutrons and such):

binding energy = (144amu * -8.2MeV/amu) + (89amu * -8.5MeV/amu) = -1937.3MeV

For the net energy difference, we take the final binding energy and subtract the initial binding energy, which gives:

(-1937.3MeV) - (-1786MeV) = -151.3MeV --> negative indicates energy lost by the system...explosion!

Keep in mind that this is an over-simplified example, so that's not quite the right answer. Nonetheless, this is basically what happens.

The binding energy per nucleon of a nucleus is intimately related to the rest masses of its constituent particles, which can also be used to predict the energy released in a fission (or fusion) reaction.

As a bonus for anyone who's interested...the reason fusion would be such a great energy source is that there is a much higher rate of change in binding energy per nucleon than there is for fission. See the initial steepness of the curve of the graph in the first link.
 
Was never good with quantum, so I'll ask now: Is it because electrons don't really exist at any particular place until you try to find it? After all, electrons have an equal chance of existing anywhere in the universe.

Electrons in an atom have very well-defined probabilities of location, rather than an equal chance of being anywhere. This is how we arrive at energy levels for electrons, and how we can predict the energy given off or absorbed when they make transitions between them. The shape of the probability density, as it's called, varies as you go from the ground state (s-shell) up to higher states. For the ground state it's more or less a sphere around the nucleus, while higher states get to looking a bit 'funkier'.
 
perpetual anything is impossible.

Except, apparently, discussions in this thread about perpetual motion. ;)

It's always fun to see the flaw in the latest "perpetual" claim, so I'll be interested to see the "demo" taking place in July.
 
Apparently some smart folk in Dublin have come up with a device that breaks pretty much everything we know about the laws of Thermodynamics. In that it creates energy, and has an effeciency of 200-400%http://www.steorn.com/orbo/

Those guys missed a very good showboating opportunity. They should have chained 10 of those devices together and claimed a 2000-4000% efficiency. :D
 
Except, apparently, discussions in this thread about perpetual motion. ;)

It's always fun to see the flaw in the latest "perpetual" claim, so I'll be interested to see the "demo" taking place in July.

You should have time. The contraption should still be running by the time you get there. :\
 
...There will inevitably be some kind of unfortunate mechanical difficulty that prevents the demo from proceeding.



Entirely correct. Your prescience is truly astounding. ;)


The demonstration was to run over 10 days starting on 6 July. Unfortunately, there was a technical defect, attributed by Mr McCarthy to the excessive heat produced by lights used to illuminate the device so that cameras could stream pictures of it in action across the web.

He hopes to be able to demonstrate the machine at a later date.

...

So, last Friday a number of people turned up at the museum and were told that the demonstration would have to be postponed, indefinitely.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6283374.stm
 
If my understanding of the Second Law of Thermodynamics is correct, it basically came around from the fact that no one has been able to make a perpetual motion machine and thus it is 'impossible.' I'm not saying that this thing is legit, but I also don't see why it shouldn't be investigated further.

P-Worm
 
So, if true, then the machines are very delicate. Sorta takes away from the MP3 player or car solutions.

I wonder who is funding Steorn?
 
Entirely correct. Your prescience is truly astounding. ;)

Oh all right, I admit that I sabotaged the demonstration from thousands of miles away using my awesome psychic powers, fully funded by Big Oil™.

For further amusement, watch Sean McCarthy hem and haw. The problem isn't the lights any more, it seems that the watch bearings supporting the wheel failed, as did the replacement bearings, and not only that but all three machines they brought failed. Of course, one of the machines worked flawlessly for four hours while no witnesses were present. ;)

It seems that these particular models are extremely sensitive to even very low levels of friction. While of course they have fully functioning generators back at the shop, they decided to make these models with no spare capacity because it was "easier" to build them that way :D

=-=-=-=

One fun little site is the Museum of Unworkable Devices. What makes it so enjoyable is that the PMMs discussed there are debunked mainly by ignoring inconveniences like friction and thermodynamics, and exploring the more fundamental reasons why they're hooey.
 
Half of me is laughing knowingly reading how this is turning out.

The other half is wincing, having had to give several "Murphy's Law"ish demos in the past; where software that had worked perfectly for me in my test setup absolutely fell apart when tried on another PC during a demo. :D
 
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