Orders for New Apple TV Arriving in Customers' Hands [Updated]

[AidenShaw]

1. EVERY double blind test has shown that people can't tell the difference between 720p and 1080p at normal viewing distances on screens less than 50".

Other experts say that your viewing distance should determine the "normal screen size". You view your laptop at about 40cm from the screen, so 1080p is clearly better than 720p at that distance - even though the screen is 15".

In other words, "normal viewing distance" is a variable, not a constant - which destroys your argument.

 

[SPX]

Same here although now I am even more annoyed and confused. According to FedEx at 11:18am this morning it was in Hong Kong. An hour later it arrived in Alaska.....by that logic it should have gone from Alaska to Arizona and arrived at my house by around 2pm.

Definitely thinking about calling Apple and complaining.

International dateline.

 

[HobeSoundDarryl]

+1 I echo his every point. sorry HobeSoundDarryl, but you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference between your 1080i (or p) source and 720p display thru ATV. just keeping it real.

I must be hard pressed then. It's night & day when I render video from the 1080HD Camcorder for max TV settings and then compare that to just hooking the Camcorder to the 1080HDTV and watching the exact same footage.

Everyone at my house can easily see the difference too. That's why we have all been looking forward to a new TV, hoping that more modern hardware would cover this base. Even though it wasn't announced, I'm still waiting for some definitive feedback about whether it can play something a little better than spec (the old one I own can).

But instead, I keep getting feedback like this from people who don't even know me telling me what I can and cannot see, why it makes no sense to wish for higher resolution video on a higher resolution big screen HD, and so on.

As stated multiple times before, what's it to you? Why do you care? If this Apple product does what you want it to do, why do you have to find such fault with someone wanting to know if it can do a little more? I don't subscribe to the idea that if it's good enough for me, it must be good enough for everyone else too. Why must people like you believe that?

Here's a bottom line: if it would work out that the thing could play 1080p, all the "720p is good enough" crowd would still get every bit of the exact same experience, the same files to rent, the same file sizes to store, the same picture quality, etc. You can't lose if the hardware is more capable than the software you find satisfactory. But it doesn't work the other way.

 

[KnightWRX]

Why must people like you believe that?

Because to say otherwise would be to admit Apple is limiting his options for no good reason whatsoever. People like that can't admit Apple can do wrong. That's an impossibility to them, because if it were to happen, they believe they would feel tremendous physical pain.

 

[HobeSoundDarryl]

I understand. Just every time I offer anything critical about an Apple product, and 50 of these people leap forward to rip me a new one for having an INDIVIDUAL opinion, I can barely believe the RD Field actually exists. It still shocks me every time.

I have some particular passion for this little product. I think Apple could completely own this space. Some parts of it are done so well, I feel like it is their's to take. When Steve took the stage and said Apple listened to their customers and there were 5 major wants in a new version, I was practically sure this particular thing would be one of them... especially in light of how commoditized 1080p chipsets had become (that so many competitors could roll out <$100 competing set top boxes with those chips built in). To me, it seemed highly unlikely that the graphics hardware update from the 2006 version to the 2010 version would be only 6 frames-per-second.

Then, when he didn't announce this particular benefit, I still retained some hope, as I understood that if he didn't have 1080p content for iTunes yet, it might be a feature he didn't want to highlight. That would allow it to still be there- because better hardware could always handle lessor software- but just be an added benefit to come out in time. After all, Apple does give us all the other parts to import, edit, render, database and play 1080p content within the iLife ecosystem. It all "just works" perfectly fine, so we have a purely Apple chain of: iMovie -> iTunes -> AppleTV -> HDTV. Only one of those links may not have the ability to process 1080p; all the others do.

Now it's hitting people's homes, and someone will soon do the test and provide a definitive answer. That what I requested- to see what this thing could do- much like calls for putting new Macs through benchmark tests, only I have to get pounded by a bunch of cheerleaders telling me what I can and cannot see, how it makes no sense to want better quality video in a device dedicated as a video player, etc.

 

[phpmaven]

Don't care much about appletv...

Thank you so much for that revelation.

 

[philipk]

Here's a bottom line: if it would work out that the thing could play 1080p, all the "720p is good enough" crowd would still get every bit of the exact same experience, the same files to rent, the same file sizes to store, the same picture quality, etc. You can't lose if the hardware is more capable than the software you find satisfactory. But it doesn't work the other way.

If everything were equal I would love to have everything in 1440p. Only a fool would say otherwise.

However, everything isn't equal.

Can't you understand that bandwidth is very limited. To stream 1080p you must use more compression than 720p. This makes for a lower quality signal. As I have stated several times, an Apple rental at 720p looks better than a DirecTV rental at 1080p.

So why should Apple waste time and money on the poorer quality rentals for the sake of making you happy.

As far as your camcorder, I will not argue with you what you say looks better. I believe it is self serving bias. That isn't lying as you really believe that you see the difference, but who am I to say what you see.

The point is Apple TV is NOT targeting people with a 1080p camcorder so your needs are unimportant.

Chevrolet is not targeting commuters with the Corvette nor are they targeting sports car enthusiasts with the Cruze. Neither product is bad, they just have different markets.

So stop condemning the Apple TV because it doesn't meet you needs.

My posts are not blind Apple fanboy but a rational explanation that the ATV meets the needs of their target market. Apple made rational choices to balance cost, available bandwidth, and ease of use.

 

[marksman]

Could I not just plug my computer into my tv as i always have? The movie renting thing makes sense but I assume that everyone who has an apple tv also has a computer from where they can also use netflix?

Sorry I have never used one so might be missing something obvious but it really seems to me to be an extra box for nothing.

The quality of feed netflix gets to my computer is inferior to the one I get on my Roku box, for example, and I assume the same would be for Apple tv as well.

 

[Durazing]

Pardon my ignorance. Can i use this with no display and an iphone remote as an itunes streamer to my AV receiver? Yes I would have it setup with the option to output video but I am curious if i can leave my display powered down (projector) and stream and control itunes music.

Thanks in advance.

 

[KnightWRX]

If everything were equal I would love to have everything in 1440p. Only a fool would say otherwise.

However, everything isn't equal.

Can't you understand that bandwidth is very limited. To stream 1080p y

You are not understanding him. Again, slowly : A 1080p box can stream 720p. The output capability of the box does not change anything as far as the content is concerned. Apple can still send you a 720p stream, preserving your bandwidth.

You would not be wasting bandwidth simply because the box can output 1080p. It would change nothing for you. Not a single thing. Everything would be equal.

 

[ten-oak-druid]

Can apple enable 1080p in the future by software update? I wouldn't think so but perhaps...

 

[HobeSoundDarryl]

knightwrx, I've already given up on him. He can see this only one way- exactly as Apple has rolled it out. He can't buy that logic, nor can he seem to grasp that Apple gives us lots of tools to make our own HD. Since BD is a "bag of hurt" we Apple creative professionals need some way to push our 1080p renders from iMovie, FC Express or FC to our 1080p HDTVs. Apple should offer a toe-to-toe alternative, but the closest we get is having to hook our computers to our HDTVs, or down conversions.

He can only see this thing as a rental machine for the iTunes store. Thus, he gets all hung up on bandwidth, download speeds, file sizes, etc. As someone who has owned Apple TVs for years- but never rented or bought much of anything from the iTunes store- I know there's a lot more to it than that.

He'll argue that Apple is all about quality, but quick to sacrifice picture quality because- apparently- Apple is the Chevrolet??? of the industry. Yikes! That should get him skewered by the same cheerleaders that have been cheering with him.

I basically give, not because I've been convinced or that someone finally handed me the koolaid, but because my points have been made, and the counterpoints don't change my wants & wishes for MY OWN SELF one bit.

But also because there's now an iFixit breakdown thread and iFixit article and it appears that there is no 1080p coprocessor hardware inside. So it looks like it can't do what I was hoping it could do.

Perhaps he and the others will feel like winners now, because somehow it helped them that I'm not buying one, or somehow it helped Apple that I'm not buying one. Meanwhile, I'll probably wait to see the if the Boxee box or Google TV can give me something better than 6 more frames per second over the 2006 version I already own. I would have much rather given my money to Apple, as there are so many great things about Apple TV.

 

[KnightWRX]

He can only see this thing as a rental machine for the iTunes store. Thus, he gets all hung up on bandwidth, download speeds, file sizes, etc. As someone who has owned Apple TVs for years- but never rented or bought much of anything from the iTunes store- I know there's a lot more to it than that.

And like you said, even if there wasn't, even if this was simply an iTunes money making machine, the fact that it would connect to your TV and output at 1080p resolution doesn't mean Apple needs to put up 1080p content.

But I understand your frustration and your position of backing out in the face of the "Apple does no wrong" crowd. They are a tough one when even logic doesn't make it through the RDF.

 

[philipk]

I basically give, not because I've been convinced or that someone finally handed me the koolaid, but because my points have been made, and the counterpoints don't change my wants & wishes for MY OWN SELF one bit.

The REAL koolaid crowd is the people who claim to see a difference with 1080p and MOST consumer grade equipment.

Please note, I am not talking about Blu-Ray, Pioneer Elite, Sony XBR, professional grade camcorders, etc.

I am talking about people like most posters here who claim to see a difference with a mid-grade monitor and a consumer grade camcorder.

You drunk the koolaid of slick marketers.

 

[KnightWRX]

The REAL koolaid crowd is the people who claim to see a difference with 1080p and MOST consumer grade equipment.

Please note, I am not talking about Blu-Ray, Pioneer Elite, Sony XBR, professional grade camcorders, etc.

I am talking about people like most posters here who claim to see a difference with a mid-grade monitor and a consumer grade camcorder.

You drunk the koolaid of slick marketers.

Sit closer to your TV.

 

[Frazzle]

Can't you understand that bandwidth is very limited. To stream 1080p you must use more compression than 720p. This makes for a lower quality signal. As I have stated several times, an Apple rental at 720p looks better than a DirecTV rental at 1080p.

Can't you understand that he doesn't give a flying ****** about streaming rentals because he just wants a complete 1080p chain without doing any scaling, for content that he himself produced and that is already on his local network?

Can't you understand that the hardware of the ATV is probably capable of 1080p, just like any other sub-$100 streaming box, so the whole limitation is indeed arbitrary and your arguments about cost have nothing to do with it?

Can't you see that any Canon FullHD camcorder can generate a 24Mbps AVCHD 1080p stream that is absolutely and visibly superior to anything in 720p? And any modern digital camera takes pictures at resolutions far beyond 1080p? Scaling those pics to 1080p on the ATV means throwing less pixels away.

And finally, can't you appreciate that people have a right to bitch about a product when it lacks certain features that would be fairly trivial and cheap to add and would make the product more versatile? Think USB ports or SD card slots on iPads, Firewire on MacBooks and HDMI on iMacs. Some of this bitching has actually resulted in features reappearing on Apple products.

 

[richman555]

I have the original Apple TV and love it and I bought the new Apple TV and will love it. I have about 20-30 movies and every season of The Office in 720p HD. I also own an LG network connected blue ray player and I only own 2 blue ray movies.... I for one know which I prefer and that is the convenience of digital media.

 

[ChrisB1]

+1 I echo his every point. sorry HobeSoundDarryl, but you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference between your 1080i (or p) source and 720p display thru ATV. just keeping it real.

+2. You can see this pretty clearly when comparing over-the-air HDTV to cable or satellite. OTA has much less compression. The one area where I can tell the difference is when I compare the audio from DVDs or BlueRay disks to streamed/downloaded 720p or 1080p content. Audio from the plastic disks is much more dynamic though the quality of your sound system is a factor (just like the screen size/quality referenced above). I'm looking forward to the ATV experience but I still rent BR disks for the best experience.

 

[philipk]

And any modern digital camera takes pictures at resolutions far beyond 1080p? Scaling those pics to 1080p on the ATV means throwing less pixels away.

Repeat 1000 times, there is more than resolution in the equation to give perceived quality.

I have been with digital photography since 1999 and have owned a DSLR since 2002. I learned quite fast that resolution is not everything. My first DSLR was a 2.5 meg Canon 1D. The image quality blew away all the other D30, D10 series DSLR's for several years even though they had higher resolutions. That is no longer true as even the most basic Canon DSLR now trumps it. Still it proves pixel size trumps number of pixels in many cases.

I also learned that you need to determine intended use of the final product. You do not need a 40 meg Hasselblad image for a 16 x 20 wedding portrait. Yes, the Hasselblad image is superior to the Canon 50D but it is overkill.

Finally, yes you have the right to bitch. However, I have the right to say you are wrong.

 

[KnightWRX]

However, I have the right to say you are wrong.

You saying it doesn't mean it's right. You keep pushing the compression argument forward, saying that compression is a factor in quality and that a higher bitrate 720p stream will look better than a lower bitrate 1080p.

You're conveniently forgetting about high bitrate 1080p.

There is no reason, whatsoever, for Apple to hold back 1080p from the device. It changes nothing for the "720p is good enough" crowd. Nothing at all. And it opens the device to the "1080p is a must!" crowd, resulting in more sales.

There is no downside to a 1080p enabled AppleTV.

 

[Frazzle]

The REAL koolaid crowd is the people who claim to see a difference with 1080p and MOST consumer grade equipment.

I think you drank the koolaid of slick marketeers who led you to believe there is a huge difference between a 1080p LCD screen in a 'consumer grade' television and the same screen in a 'prosumer grade' television.

The drive electronics may be better, but the number of pixels is 1920x1080 for both. And as any engineer can tell you, an LCD screen looks its best when fed with a signal that exactly matches its native resolution. In this case, 1080p. Even if the streamed movies you watch are not Pixar quality, all the computer generated menus, fonts and pictures will look sharper. Pixel-perfect even. And you can avoid the double-scaling effect, where both the device and the screen scale the image to fit the screen.

Of course you will counter that the difference isn't visible for 'most' people at 'normal' viewing distances, but why even bother trying to define those subjective terms? Offering 1080p is trivial and cheap nowadays and because practically every television and many projectors are 1080p native devices, why not provide a pixel-perfect signal to begin with? Seems like something Apple would normally not think twice about.

 

[philipk]

I'm looking forward to the ATV experience but I still rent BR disks for the best experience.

Exactly, for every ATV rental I make, I watch ten Blu-Ray rentals from Netflix.

Yet, day to day I use ATV far more through streaming my ripped DVD collection or occasional Netflix stream.

I think you drank the koolaid of slick marketeers who led you to believe there is a huge difference between a 1080p LCD screen in a 'consumer grade' television and the same screen in a 'prosumer grade' television.

The differences are real. Cheap monitors provide poor results.

Before digital television, have you ever been in a large broadcast studio and seen the quality of a profession monitor? I have and couldn't believe that 480i could look that good.

People are kidding themselves if they think their 50" 1080p Visio gives a picture that is an equal to prosumer products.

You're conveniently forgetting about high bitrate 1080p.

Where can I buy or rent a high bitrate 1080p except for Blu-Ray?

 

[Frazzle]

Repeat 1000 times, there is more than resolution in the equation to give perceived quality.

Exactly. And that must be why you conveniently skip the arguments where I talk about high bitrate content or the benefits of driving a screen at its native resolution.

I can see now why you're in marketing.

However, I have the right to say you are wrong.

Sure, you have the right to say I'm wrong. Even when I'm not. It just means that you are acting like a self-aggrandizing troll in this discussion. Thanks for playing though.

 

[KnightWRX]

Where can I buy or rent a high bitrate 1080p except for Blu-Ray?

Oh... I don't know, a 1080p video camera or Blu-ray exactly like you state ?

 

[Gakboi]

I understood it a long time ago. I have the old Apple TV and I've been renting movies on it for years. I haven't purchased a DVD for years, and I haven't been to a blockbuster to rent a movie for years.

That is the point of the device. It's not any cheaper to rent movies on it than going to blockbuster/netflix, but it's more convenient. I don't have to drive or deal with mailing disks.

I don't have an apple tv and can't remember the last time I rented a movie but i'm still never short of stuff to watch