OS X 10.7 - Top Menu Bar?

[QuarterSwede]

And how does the bar across the top help that?

It allows you to access the applications menus without having to open a window. It's quite useful actually.

The button doesn't need to go away so much as Apple needs to implement it correctly. The fact that OS X does not have a working 'maximize' button is stupid. I shouldn't have to install a third party utility to get that functionality. It's one of my biggest qualms with the OS.

It's not stupid on a 27" screen. In that case it's a supreme waste of space. As displays get larger on desktop machines maximize is going to be more useless and zoom is going to be more useful.

 

[BeachChair]

It's not stupid on a 27" screen.

Good point.

One thing that could be improved is Exposé. When you have a couple of apps open theres just too many small windows that are indiscernible. A mini finder window doesn't look too different from a firefox or itunes window, they are all small white rectangular boxes. I'd like at least the option to smack the app's icons on top of each little window.

 

[bmcgonag]

I don't understand why multi-touch would eliminate the need or use of the menubar.

Could I not touch the Finder label in menubar to get the contextural menu and then touch New Finder Window?

I can't see how the menubar wastes space, it's much thinner than the Windows bottom bar, and even if they add it to each window, it's still there...it's now just floating out on the window...wasting space.

I like it, but perhaps they could make it hide, like the dock, or if they were to add it to the window...make it like Quicktime, where it goes borderless until you do Command+shift+alt+win...HA...just kidding...but something like that would work I guess.

Anyway...is there even an alpha for 10.7 yet?

 

[Jollins]

Maybe an alpha of 10.7 will slip out after Apple's wednesday announcement.

Personally, I think it's time for the menubar to go. Perhaps the clock, battery & other notifications can be merged into the dock somehow.

It's true the menubar allows an app to be used without a window, but really, how often do we use that functionality? Without the menubar, apps could still run in the background with no window. They'd just have to pop up a new window when the app is brought back to the foreground. Personally, I find some apps offering windowless operation while others don't to be one of the major inconsistencies in OS X's UI today.

The menubar seems to predate the times when we had pretty, well-designed toolbars. With a modern windowing & toolbar UI, the menubar is often redundant IMO (especially in browser or office apps).

I'm sure apple could devise some legacy solution for menubar-dependent apps.

 

[xlii]

I love the ease of finding things the top menu bar provides. The "Apple" icon in particular provides all sorts of useful information. Contrast that to Windows 7, where system information and settings are spread out all over the place.

 

[Cboss]

^ +1

My favorite part about the menu bar is the consistency across applications.

 

[roadbloc]

I like the menubar and find it very useful indeed. It's the only minority of apps that try and cram every setting into the window. Office 2011 is understandable as the GUI of it is based on the Windows version.

The menu bar is not going anywhere.

 

[martynmc7]

To be fair, as far as I can tell, it doesn't seem to have changed in the last 6 years

Well, apart from the fact that many of those issues are now non-issues with the advent of higher resolution screens, stacks, and the fact that the dock is not a place to keep individuals documents, that's what the desktop is for.

 

[Ivan P]

OP, I've noticed when you're referring to the menu bar you're always only mentioning the menus that it displays. What about its other features:

- Shut down/restart/sleep/logout options
- Fast access to system info
- Fast access to Software Update
- Fast user switching
- Clock
- Spotlight
- Spaces
- Time Machine
- Internet and bluetooth connections
- Notifications (iChat, Adium, Google Notifier, etc)

If you're so upfront that they need to kill off the menu bar, where would you suggest putting all these much-used user tools? The great thing about the menu bar is that it can be used to access things immediately and isn't only relevant to the application you are currently working in. Getting rid of it would cause huge inconvenience because of all the additional tools it would take away with it. Sure, a lot of the things I listed can be accessed elsewhere, but it's much more user friendly being able to click in the menu bar to join a network or to see the date and time as opposed to digging through System Preferences. You could say that they could make something like the taskbar/system tray in Windows for these additional items, but then you'd have the already displeased Windows users complaining that Apple is copying Microsoft, and you'd still have a bar taking up some sort of screen real estate. I'm interested to know what your solution to this would be.

 

[0007776]

While I do believe apple will be adding multitouch into 10.7 and I also believe this will be the last version of OSX (as it will be called iOS desktop or something like that), we are all just speculating on what it may or may not be.

They may add multitouch, although I don't see how it would be of much use on a desktop. but 10.7 wont be the last OS X Steve Jobs has said that OS X is the mac OS for the next 20 years, I think it was at a keynote in 05, but I may be wrong about the year.

 

[jamied95]

OP, I've noticed when you're referring to the menu bar you're always only mentioning the menus that it displays. What about its other features:

- Shut down/restart/sleep/logout options
- Fast access to system info
- Fast access to Software Update
- Fast user switching
- Clock
- Spotlight
- Spaces
- Time Machine
- Internet and bluetooth connections
- Notifications (iChat, Adium, Google Notifier, etc)

If you're so upfront that they need to kill off the menu bar, where would you suggest putting all these much-used user tools? The great thing about the menu bar is that it can be used to access things immediately and isn't only relevant to the application you are currently working in. Getting rid of it would cause huge inconvenience because of all the additional tools it would take away with it. Sure, a lot of the things I listed can be accessed elsewhere, but it's much more user friendly being able to click in the menu bar to join a network or to see the date and time as opposed to digging through System Preferences. You could say that they could make something like the taskbar/system tray in Windows for these additional items, but then you'd have the already displeased Windows users complaining that Apple is copying Microsoft, and you'd still have a bar taking up some sort of screen real estate. I'm interested to know what your solution to this would be.

I'm not saying kill it, I'm just saying, that actually, in an Apple world where everything is designed to be simple, I find finding a font is easier in Word 2011 than say it is within TextEdit, as it's a dropdown, with the relevant editting that is always there, whereas to find font in Textedit, you have to go digging around in the drop downs, then a little box pops up which is horrific, which to me, doesn't seem as easy as the former example. I know Apple aren't going to copy 3rd parties, but actually, for alot of things, icons are better, a human recognises icons better than a long list - look at stacks for example, the default is a grid of icons.

The whole experience potentially just needs refining, there are other ways to implement a user experience, which will be though up by people probably far greater in intelligence than you or I (no offence ).

Also, look at iOS, where's it's menu bar with file, edit etc? It doesn't have one, just something that displays the time and what's going on, which every phone has. And, yes, It has a dock, so the experience isn't all that difference. The dock on OS X doesn't take up the whoe of the bottom of the screen, maybe use that advantageously? Saving space? I don't know. It just seems like a bit wasteful to me.

They may add multitouch, although I don't see how it would be of much use on a desktop. but 10.7 wont be the last OS X Steve Jobs has said that OS X is the mac OS for the next 20 years, I think it was at a keynote in 05, but I may be wrong about the year.

Remember 2005 was pre-iOS, before Apple could have even realised how influential and huge the forthcoming products and OS were going to be.

 

[Winni]

Apple's menu bar philosophy comes from a time when the Mac had a nine inch display and couldn't do any multitasking. It's a relict that nowadays is in the way of usability. I think everybody who has ever used a Mac with two or more displays and more than one application running knows what I'm talking about, and even if you're a member of the Holy Apple Inquisition, deep down in your heart you know that the concept in Windows or KDE or Gnome, where every window has its own menu bar, is way superior to Apple's approach.

And while we're at it, even Windows 7's (or KDE's or Gnome's) start menu is also a much better solution than Apple's out-dated, weak Dock.

 

[Inconsequential]

Apple's menu bar philosophy comes from a time when the Mac had a nine inch display and couldn't do any multitasking. It's a relict that nowadays is in the way of usability. I think everybody who has ever used a Mac with two or more displays and more than one application running knows what I'm talking about, and even if you're a member of the Holy Apple Inquisition, deep down in your heart you know that the concept in Windows or KDE or Gnome, where every window has its own menu bar, is way superior to Apple's approach.

And while we're at it, even Windows 7's (or KDE's or Gnome's) start menu is also a much better solution than Apple's out-dated, weak Dock.

And I completely disagree with you!

So, I wonder which group of people Apple will **** off this time...

 

[jamied95]

And I completely disagree with you!

So, I wonder which group of people Apple will **** off this time...

To be fair, Apple can't **** off anyone, most people will just be like, "well Apple decided it was best, so it is awesome, and I love it"

 

[spinnerlys]

To be fair, Apple can't **** off anyone, most people will just be like, "well Apple decided it was best, so it is awesome, and I love it"

Oh, they can and they have, especially when they neglect their Pro line (hardware and software) in favour for iOS devices and software. Many people working in the media field have helped Apple survive the dark age in the 90s and now they feel neglected in some ways sometimes.

 

[Compile 'em all]

To be fair, Apple can't **** off anyone, most people will just be like, "well Apple decided it was best, so it is awesome, and I love it"

Read up on Fitt's Law then you will understand why the menubar in Mac OS X is the way it is.

Apple is a design company and most of their design decisions, whether in software or hardware, are for a reason (not just-because).

It is fascinating after all these years yet people (mostly clueless users coming from where the sun doesn't shine...aka Windows) still continue harping on the Mac's menubar.

 

[jamied95]

Read up on Fitt's Law then you will understand why the menubar in Mac OS X is the way it is.

Apple is a design company and most of their design decisions, whether in software or hardware, are for a reason (not just-because).

It is fascinating after all these years yet people (mostly clueless users coming from where the sun doesn't shine...aka Windows) still continue harping on the Mac's menubar.

As cited before by someone else, let me paraphrase, "Apple didn't use Fitts' law for the dock"

Also, they may have used Fitts' law for the menu bar, but as far as I can tell, the law only describes the size and placing of a button to make it easy to press - the Apple Logo for example, it still executes even if you throw your mouse to the corner of the screen (well, unless you use the corner thing where it makes it do something (eg. Screensaver), in which case that doesn't work. The law does not then describe the time it takes to find something, from the drop down list, which I would theorise would be considerably longer than controlling your mouse to a dropdown/button in the grey bar.

Just because Apple designed it doesn't make it the epitome of design, Microsoft products are often great and well designed too.

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You're comparing TextEdit to Word. Absurd. Try again, with Pages this time.

Also, comparing iOS to OS X is far from being valid. It's a page based OS rather than a window based OS. And the so-called dock is only a row of icons that don't move. It doesn't have a tenth of the functionnality of the real Dock. You can access the dock anytime on OS X, but only while on the Springboard on iOS.

In Pages, you have to use the font button, sensible, however it still brings up another box, which is unnecessary and clutters up the screen more, covering work, and requiring an extra click, and taking more time - this button, which is in an Apple (a design company) product also breaks Fitts' Law.

And the point is valid, I'm sure Apple, with 10.7, will bring alot of design elements from iPad/iOS to OS X, like the whiter UI, compared to grey, as a simple example (would be a relief, so much grey). Also, in iOS, they could have implemented the menu bar to have File, Edit etc, instead of the icons, they didn't, they went for the icon approach.

Also, the multitasking thing? I don't get it to be honest, if I want to play the next track in iTunes, or Spotify, I 'right click' the icon on the dock, which seems simpler..

 

[lewis82]

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You're comparing TextEdit to Word. Absurd. Try again, with Pages this time.

Also, comparing iOS to OS X is far from being valid. It's a page based OS rather than a window based OS. And the so-called dock is only a row of icons that don't move. It doesn't have a tenth of the functionnality of the real Dock. You can access the dock anytime on OS X, but only while on the Springboard on iOS.

Edit: I was replying to this.

I'm not saying kill it, I'm just saying, that actually, in an Apple world where everything is designed to be simple, I find finding a font is easier in Word 2011 than say it is within TextEdit, as it's a dropdown, with the relevant editting that is always there, whereas to find font in Textedit, you have to go digging around in the drop downs, then a little box pops up which is horrific, which to me, doesn't seem as easy as the former example. I know Apple aren't going to copy 3rd parties, but actually, for alot of things, icons are better, a human recognises icons better than a long list - look at stacks for example, the default is a grid of icons.

The whole experience potentially just needs refining, there are other ways to implement a user experience, which will be though up by people probably far greater in intelligence than you or I (no offence ).

Also, look at iOS, where's it's menu bar with file, edit etc? It doesn't have one, just something that displays the time and what's going on, which every phone has. And, yes, It has a dock, so the experience isn't all that difference. The dock on OS X doesn't take up the whoe of the bottom of the screen, maybe use that advantageously? Saving space? I don't know. It just seems like a bit wasteful to me.

 

[elppa]

Pages has a drop down font menu in the format bar. I don't see how this is any different to Word.

 

[jamied95]

Pages has a drop down font menu in the format bar. I don't see how this is any different to Word.

Oh, I'm talking about Office 2011, not 2008, because that defines awful, never have I laid eyes upon worse designed software.

And I don't have Pages, I just looked at a picture online, I see what you mean now, if they can do it in this software, why not replicate it across all of their software, and then expand.

 

[kuwisdelu]

Each window having its own individual menu bar would use up a lot more screen space and create a lot more clutter than the single unified menu bar.

Applications can use buttons or individualized drop-down menus (e.g., your font example) below the window's title bar to implement the most important functionality for that program.

The menu bar exists to give access to the rest of the functionality that is less-often used, but vital nonetheless. The most important things can usually be done from the window.

I rarely have to dig into the menu items to find the functionality I need, but it's there when I do need it. Duplicating that in every window is a waste of space.

This seems obvious to me.

 

[jamied95]

I've never said attach it to the window, I'm just saying that in, say Chrome, I have no use for File, Edit, etc, it's just wasting space - I don't see how that is saving space to be honest.

Windows manages to get away with one bar, which barely uses any space at all, yes OS X uses half the blooming 13" screen with bits I never use. And, even still, I don't think a long list of items, is as easy as icons, and OS X seems to have a bit of half and half in general, half icons, have long lists and menus etc, which is NOT easy - on my first time using mail, I had no idea how to change font, for supposedly a OS that is so simple, it sure is complex (to make change something from lowercase, you have to go Edit > Transformations > Make Upper Case, and even then, Edit is never the first menu I go to, and from there, Transformations isn't the second.... Office:Mac 2011, one button, next to Font size. I think you'd find it hard to argue the former is simpler.

 

[kuwisdelu]

Huh? Windows doesn't "get away with one bar." In Windows, most windows have their own menu bars. Office 2010 is kind of an exception, because of the ribbon interface.

Many applications have far more functionality options than Chrome. Turning all menu items into icons in the window bar would result in half your screen space taken up with buttons, instead of tucked away in the menu bar.

If you want to argue that all menu items should have the option to be available as buttons, too, that's different. But that's not what you're saying.

To be honest, I'm not entirely sure what you're saying.

 

[jamied95]

Huh? Windows doesn't "get away with one bar." In Windows, most windows have their own menu bars. Office 2010 is kind of an exception, because of the ribbon interface.

Many applications have far more functionality options than Chrome. Turning all menu items into icons in the window bar would result in half your screen space taken up with buttons, instead of tucked away in the menu bar.

If you want to argue that all menu items should have the option to be available as buttons, too, that's different. But that's not what you're saying.

To be honest, I'm not entirely sure what you're saying.

Neither do I I just don't think it's the simplest way to display it, having come from Windows, where most of the Apps were moving away from the File, Edit, etc, it just seemed like a step backward - old and not as clear, seen as everything is hidden in a long list of things.

 

[spinnerlys]

Neither do I I just don't think it's the simplest way to display it, having come from Windows, where most of the Apps were moving away from the File, Edit, etc, it just seemed like a step backward - old and not as clear, seen as everything is hidden in a long list of things.

One of the advantages of the Mac OS X menu bar is that is searchable since Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard, which often makes finding things easier though. And many professional applications would break if they would have no menu bar, as there is often no keyboard shortcut or equivalent icon.

As I switched from Windows only six years ago, I should understand where you come from, but to be honest, I often emulated the menu bar in Windows, either by menu bar add ons or hacks or by putting the task bar at the top. It just feels more natural for me. Maybe it has something to do with how one thinks.

EDIT

And what about applications with multiple windows, like Photoshop for example, where there are many elements like the toolbars or the layers or navigation or actions window don't have enough room to accommodate a hidden menu accessible via a hot key.
Or take a look at Avid Media Composer, comprised of four windows (often many, many more) at least, only one being maybe able to hold the full menu of that application at full length, thought that window is often situated on a second monitor on the bottom half.

It may make sense with single window applications like browsers or iPhoto or maybe even word editors, but taking a way the menu bar will seriously put other multi level applications in harms way.
Those applications might work in Windows without a top menu bar, but that is due to Windows being window orientated and having a big, frelling grey window behind the complete application (nice on multi monitor setups), and Mac OS X being document orientated, thus you can still se the Desktop (often confusing for Windows users).