OS X needs a real solution to window management. Expose is a poor excuse.

Mike225

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Jul 15, 2010
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OS X needs a way to organize its open windows better. Windows has Aero Snap, shake, and peek along with a taskbar. OS X has Expose which I have used on Windows through Switcher, but it just seems like poor solution to OS X's cluttered window issues. I never use the feature over the taskbar.

I mean, in OS X I can either open all the windows of a program at the taskbar, I can wait and hold down to open 1 window, move all my windows to find the one I want (most basic users option) or I can use Expose which is not a good feature IMO. Why would i want to see every window open on my computer and have to search for the one I want, especially when they are not always in the same spot?

So I ask if this is something people think Apple should improve on in a future version of their OS. This has always been my grudge against OS X.

BTW I have "Expose" set to top left click on my screen or a bottom left touch on my touchpad so it is easy to access, but I never have found a need.
 

Mike225

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Yes, OS X and Windows are different. One is not better than the other.
This is one where Windows excels I guess, if theres no solution to a major issue like this. i don't know how people continue to put up with such a productivity killer.

I use Aero snap to snap a window to each side of my screen for about half my usage of Windows. In OS X it would take 20 seconds to get a nice screen positioning which takes 1 in Windows.
 

ergdegdeg

Moderator emeritus
Oct 13, 2007
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Exposé is not the only window management solution in OSX. There's also spaces, application exposé and the ability to tab through applications and application windows. You can also get the "Aero Snap" in OSX through software like BetterTouchTool.
 

GGJstudios

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May 16, 2008
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This is one where Windows excels I guess, if theres no solution to a major issue like this. i don't know how people continue to put up with such a productivity killer.
A "solution" isn't required, since there's not a problem. Like many things about Mac OS X, Exposé works differently than Windows, but it works just fine for what it's designed to do. Just because it's different doesn't mean it's a problem. It takes getting used to.

It's not a productivity killer, either. With one motion of the mouse (hot corners) I can quickly see all windows and click whichever I want active, without having to waste time searching for a keyboard command. It's very efficient for many users. Some will like it, some won't. But that doesn't mean Apple needs to change anything. If you use a Mac, you need to adapt to how things work on a Mac. If you prefer the Windows way, go back to Windows.
 

Mike225

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Exposé is not the only window management solution in OSX. There's also spaces, application exposé and the ability to tab through applications and application windows. You can also get the "Aero Snap" in OSX through software like BetterTouchTool.
Give me a good example of when someone would use Spaces besides having two workflows to control. I watched some kid use Spaces in a lecture to transfer notes from one presentation to a document. I about slapped him watching the "Spaces" switch back and forth every 5 seconds.

Im thinking, reorganize the windows to the same screen at once or just switch between the open windows like a normal person.

While we're on the troll arguments, I could just as well argue that Windows is a productivity killer. To each their own.
What?
 

Zyniker

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Feb 14, 2008
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Give me a good example of when someone would use Spaces besides having two workflows to control. I watched some kid use Spaces in a lecture to transfer notes from one presentation to a document. I about slapped him watching the "Spaces" switch back and forth every 5 seconds.

Im thinking, reorganize the windows to the same screen at once or just switch between the open windows like a normal person.
Since you brought up the example of someone in a, more or less, academic environment: Facebook/chat/social in one space and notes/class materials in another. A very common use.

noun
1 the action of trolling for fish.
• a line or bait used in such fishing.
2 informal Computing an e-mail message or posting on the Internet intended to provoke an indignant response in the reader.​

In case you were confused.
 

seb-opp

macrumors 6502
Nov 16, 2008
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Actually, F10 displays all windows from one app, F9 displays all windows, Cmd + tab cycles through open apps. Spaces reduces clutter as you can group apps based on different tasks. Apps can be 'hidden' from the apple menu or the dock, further reducing clutter.

Clearly there's lots of options, which the OP is either unaware of, or here to troll
 

miles01110

macrumors Core
Jul 24, 2006
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You are essentially making the non-sequiter that because you do not understand or are not capable of using a program/window management system properly, it is inefficient for all users.

I am making the same ridiculous argument applied to operating systems. Since I am less productive on Windows, obviously everyone using Windows is less productive.

Do you see why your "argument" doesn't hold any water?
 

Mike225

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Since you brought up the example of someone in a, more or less, academic environment: Facebook/chat/social in one space and notes/class materials in another. A very common use.
Exactly as I said. Two work flows, but in your example I dont see how it ads to the productivity. I see it more beneficial for two workflows which are time/location separated such as home/school where you dont want to disturb what you have open while doing other things for a while. Otherwise just change windows.

Actually, F10 displays all windows from one app, F9 displays all windows, Cmd + tab cycles through open apps. Spaces reduces clutter as you can group apps based on different tasks. Apps can be 'hidden' from the apple menu or the dock, further reducing clutter.

Clearly there's lots of options, which the OP is either unaware of, or here to troll
Or we can assume I dont want to move my left hand and find a key to switch windows efficiently as well as do two tasks instead of 1 to find a window. BTW your keys out of date.

You are essentially making the non-sequiter that because you do not understand or are not capable of using a program/window management system properly, it is inefficient for all users.

I am making the same ridiculous argument applied to operating systems. Since I am less productive on Windows, obviously everyone using Windows is less productive.

Do you see why your "argument" doesn't hold any water?
No, because Ive been giving examples and reasons for the inefficiency, you are basing yours on personal experience.
 

GGJstudios

macrumors Westmere
May 16, 2008
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Exactly as I said. Two work flows, but in your example I dont see how it ads to the productivity. I see it more beneficial for two workflows which are time/location separated such as home/school where you dont want to disturb what you have open while doing other things for a while. Otherwise just change windows.
Because you don't see a need or have an application for using Spaces, doesn't make it less effective for those who do have a need for it. The Apple world does not revolve around you. Apple makes products that appeal to masses of people. No one makes products that appeal to every person on the planet. It's fallacy to think that just because something doesn't work for you, that it's a problem or a failure of some kind.
 

miles01110

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Jul 24, 2006
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No, because Ive been giving examples and reasons for the inefficiency, you are basing yours on personal experience.
How is this not a personal experience?

Or we can assume I dont want to move my left hand and find a key to switch windows efficiently as well as do two tasks instead of 1 to find a window. BTW your keys out of date.
Or how about this one?

Exactly as I said. Two work flows, but in your example I dont see how it ads to the productivity. I see it more beneficial for two workflows which are time/location separated such as home/school where you dont want to disturb what you have open while doing other things for a while. Otherwise just change windows.
Argument fail.
 

Mike225

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Jul 15, 2010
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Because you don't see a need or have an application for using Spaces, doesn't make it less effective for those who do have a need for it. The Apple world does not revolve around you. Apple makes products that appeal to masses of people. No one makes products that appeal to every person on the planet. It's fallacy to think that just because something doesn't work for you, that it's a problem or a failure of some kind.
Well tell me why its a good feature other than what I have mentioned. How does it help productivity by separating chat/fb with notes/presentations when you have to constantly switch desktops to hit what you want versus change windows to get what you want.

How is this not a personal experience?



Or how about this one?



Argument fail.
Im telling you why I see it as unproductive. Now tell me how you see it as productive. Would you rather I use "A user"? Maybe you like moving your hands and readjusting your position to do everything. lets stay on track BTW. No need to troll your own forum because youre mad I pointed out a serious flaw in your OS.
 

miles01110

macrumors Core
Jul 24, 2006
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Im telling you why I see it as unproductive. Now tell me how you see it as productive.
Why would I do that? It's quite obvious that you find it unproductive- that's all you've been whining about in this thread. That's not in dispute.

No need to troll your own forum because youre mad I pointed out a serious flaw in your OS.
Here's the problem. You think it's a serious flaw, others do not. It's one thing to say that you find something to be inefficient, out of place, whatever- but just because you hold that point of view doesn't make it true for others, which is what you're implying.
 

Mike225

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Why would I do that? It's quite obvious that you find it unproductive- that's all you've been whining about in this thread. That's not in dispute.



Here's the problem. You think it's a serious flaw, others do not. It's one thing to say that you find something to be inefficient, out of place, whatever- but just because you hold that point of view doesn't make it true for others, which is what you're implying.
It actually does unless you can refute the reasons I gave for it being unproductive. Care to attempt? I might **** standing up but unless ive **** sitting down I would never know it was better. If someone told me that ******** standing up caused a tightening of the cheeks and other issues and sitting down solved it, unless I told them why standing up was better they'd be the correct one.

Why would I do that? It's quite obvious that you find it unproductive- that's all you've been whining about in this thread. That's not in dispute.



Here's the problem. You think it's a serious flaw, others do not. It's one thing to say that you find something to be inefficient, out of place, whatever- but just because you hold that point of view doesn't make it true for others, which is what you're implying.
Lets make it simple. Instead of trying to knock down my argument by saying its just personal preference and you like OS X's windows management better, try giving a reason why.

For example you like searching for windows. You like leaning forward to hit your keyboard and then selecting a window afterwards with your mouse.
 

GGJstudios

macrumors Westmere
May 16, 2008
44,419
759
Well tell me why its a good feature other than what I have mentioned.
If you don't see a need for it, don't use it. It's not for everyone. It's not up to others to tell you how to use your computer. You should be able to figure that out for yourself.
Im telling you why I see it as unproductive.
Then don't use it.
I pointed out a serious flaw in your OS.
It's not a flaw in the OS. It's a feature that some will find useful and some won't. If you're not able to understand the feature or find an application for it, leave it alone. The rest of us will keep using it just fine.

There are some who might argue that having keys on the keyboard arranged in alphabetical order would be better, but that doesn't mean keyboard makers are going to redesign their products just to accommodate the whims of a minority of users.

If you don't see a need or have an application for any particular feature, don't use it. It's ridiculous for you to continue ranting that Apple needs to change something just because it doesn't apply to you.
 

chrono1081

macrumors 604
Jan 26, 2008
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Exactly as I said. Two work flows, but in your example I dont see how it ads to the productivity. I see it more beneficial for two workflows which are time/location separated such as home/school where you dont want to disturb what you have open while doing other things for a while. Otherwise just change windows.



Or we can assume I dont want to move my left hand and find a key to switch windows efficiently as well as do two tasks instead of 1 to find a window. BTW your keys out of date.



No, because Ive been giving examples and reasons for the inefficiency, you are basing yours on personal experience.
First off, I smell a troll thread...you came here specifically to insult something other people enjoy.

Second, spaces is incredibly useful for people like me who run programs that hog the entire screen. Unity, Maya, XCode, Painter, Photoshop, ZBrush. That is all one workflow and each program will integrate into another with the exception of Painter and XCode. Please let me know how windows does the multiple desktop thing better because guess what? It doesn't. It's not built in to the OS.

Sure you can argue that you can get multiple desktops in windows by using third party tools, but then I can also say you can get the aero snap features in OSX by third party tools (Better Touch Tool).
 

Mike225

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Jul 15, 2010
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First off, I smell a troll thread...

Second, spaces is incredibly useful for people like me who run programs that hog the entire screen. Unity, Maya, XCode, Painter, Photoshop, ZBrush. That is all one workflow and each program will integrate into another with the exception of Painter and XCode. Please let me know how windows does the multiple desktop thing better because guess what? It doesn't. It's not built in to the OS.
They dont have it built in because its a pointless feature. Second its a PowerToy from Microsoft if you want it.
 

spinnerlys

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Sep 7, 2008
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Well tell me why its a good feature other than what I have mentioned. How does it help productivity by separating chat/fb with notes/presentations when you have to constantly switch desktops to hit what you want versus change windows to get what you want.
I have twelve (12) Spaces, each has assigned various applications. Currently I have 16 applications open, sometimes up to 25, and Spaces does help me to sort through them.
I have four columns and three rows, the first row is for browsers, FTP and system diagnostics and control, the second row is for media creation, for example I have Lightroom in Space 5 and PS in Space 6, if they would be in the same Space, they would clutter my workflow. If I do something related to video, I have Avid MC open in Space 5, a colour correction application open in Space 6, a compositing application open in Space 7 and a DVD authoring application in Space 8.
For entertainment purposes I have the third row (iTunes, VLC and Movist) + my text and spreadsheet applications are down there too.

If I would use only one Space, which I did until 2007 with Mac OS X 10.3 to 10.4, I would have a very cluttered Exposé experience, especially since I can have that many applications open with enough RAM and a fine C2D CPU.

As with all tools (Mac OS X and its components are tools), not every tool is fit for every user. I have met many people, who can't get their head around Exposé or Spaces or how Mac OS X works in general. I don't know if it has something to do with them being "brought up" in Windows or if their "logic/mind" just isn't made for that kind of thinking. I myself used Windows for eleven years or so (in my mind, that seems to be very long) and switched to Mac OS X six years ago. Whenever I sit in front of a Windows machine, I have difficulty wrapping my head around the thought processes involved in navigating that "piece of crap" (in my eyes) and I can't fathom how to work with Windows without the use of Exposé, as Spaces can be ignored in Windows, as the PCs I worked at have a hard time running five applications at once anyway.
That is another gripe of mine, how can a 3GHz (not dual core though) Windows PC with adequate RAM feel much slower in opening and handling applications and documents and booting than my 2004 1GHz iBook with Mac OS X 10.3/4/5?

All in all, if your mindset is not cut out for the way of thinking Mac OS (X) employs and find the Windows way more useful, it seems Mac OS X might be not for you.
I always dabbled with Mac OS in some way or another since I became aware of it in the 90s and found the way of thinking to my liking (Menu Bar at top, document centric) and tried to mimc it on Windows (miserably).

In my conclusion, Exposé + Spaces is the best window management I came across, even though Exposé got fcked in 10.6 and is inferior to Panther, Tiger and Leopard. It would be nice though, if Exposé could remember the order of my last selected (into the foreground) documents so it would order them correctly and if it would scale windows proportionally, as I still can't understand why the Downloads window of Safari or Firefox should appear in the same size as a full fledged browser window.

Okay, that's enough and I hope the thread hasn't been closed yet.



They dont have it built in because its a pointless feature. Second its a PowerToy from Microsoft if you want it.
It's pointless for you and some other people, but many have seen the point of Spaces and use it vigourously.

Linux has it too, but in a mire advanced fashion and it is called Virtual Desktops.
 

Mike225

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Jul 15, 2010
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I have twelve (12) Spaces, each has assigned various applications. Currently I have 16 applications open, sometimes up to 25, and Spaces does help me to sort through them.
I have four columns and three rows, the first row is for browsers, FTP and system diagnostics and control, the second row is for media creation, for example I have Lightroom in Space 5 and PS in Space 6, if they would be in the same Space, they would clutter my workflow. If I do something related to video, I have Avid MC open in Space 5, a colour correction application open in Space 6, a compositing application open in Space 7 and a DVD authoring application in Space 8.
For entertainment purposes I have the third row (iTunes, VLC and Movist) + my text and spreadsheet applications are down there too.

If I would use only one Space, which I did until 2007 with Mac OS X 10.3 to 10.4, I would have a very cluttered Exposé experience, especially since I can have that many applications open with enough RAM and a fine C2D CPU.

As with all tools (Mac OS X and its components are tools), not every tool is fit for every user. I have met many people, who can't get their head around Exposé or Spaces or how Mac OS X works in general. I don't know if it has something to do with them being "brought up" in Windows or if their "logic/mind" just isn't made for that kind of thinking. I myself used Windows for eleven years or so (in my mind, that seems to be very long) and switched to Mac OS X six years ago. Whenever I sit in front of a Windows machine, I have difficulty wrapping my head around the thought processes involved in navigating that "piece of crap" (in my eyes) and I can't fathom how to work with Windows without the use of Exposé, as Spaces can be ignored in Windows, as the PCs I worked at have a hard time running five applications at once anyway.
That is another gripe of mine, how can a 3GHz (not dual core though) Windows PC with adequate RAM feel much slower in opening and handling applications and documents and booting than my 2004 1GHz iBook with Mac OS X 10.3/4/5?

All in all, if your mindset is not cut out for the way of thinking Mac OS (X) employs and find the Windows way more useful, it seems Mac OS X might be not for you.
I always dabbled with Mac OS in some way or another since I became aware of it in the 90s and found the way of thinking to my liking (Menu Bar at top, document centric) and tried to mimc it on Windows (miserably).

In my conclusion, Exposé + Spaces is the best window management I came across, even though Exposé got fcked in 10.6 and is inferior to Panther, Tiger and Leopard. It would be nice though, if Exposé could remember the order of my last selected (into the foreground) documents so it would order them correctly and if it would scale window proportionally, as I still can't understand why the Downloads window of Safari or Firefox should appear in the same size as a full fledged browser window.

Okay, that's enough and I hope the thread hasn't been closed yet.





It's pointless for you and some other people, but many have seen the point of Spaces and use it vigourously.

Linux has it too, but in a mire advanced fashion and it is called Virtual Desktops.
Every OS has it. Its not like Apple invented it. But at least you are giving me reasons, which is actually what I made this thread to show. Most OS X users like to rag on other stuff without reason. I can see your reasoning for your use of the two features, but just about everyone else has had 0 good reasons for doing it.

As for the computer, how can my laptop from 2006 run Windows much better than my friends new 13" Aluminum Macbook running 10.5 which couldnt switch a window without the beachball for 5 to forcequit seconds. MAYBE ITS THE SET UP OF THE OS... Who wouldve thought.