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Originally posted by Somebody


Oh, great, now you're quoting dictionary definitions. The only part of the quoted definition that is relevant is the first one; The second one is so vague and broad that you could use it to characterize just about any company as a monopoly, and has nothing to do with whether or not a company fits the legal definition of a monopoly, anyways. And I'm pretty sure that when you called Apple a monopoly, you didn't mean the board game.

So let's look at that first definition: "a market in which there are many buyers but only one seller". Is there a market in which Apple is the only seller? No. Because the primary market in which Apple competes is not "Computer hardware that runs MacOS", or "Operating systems which run on Macintosh hardware", but rather: "Personal computer systems". There are plenty of providers of such things besides Apple. Saying that Apple is a monopoly because they're the only company that competes in the "hardware that runs MacOS" market is about like saying that Ford is a monopoly because they are the only company that competes in the "Ford Mustang" market.

What good is computer hardware without an OS? What good is an OS without computer hardware to run it on? They are the only company that puts out an OS that runs their hardware, unless you count the attempt by linux distros.

It would be like if Ford would sell a Mustang, but dictate that in order to operate it, you must buy the authorized Ford Driver.

Aside from the OS matters, what about the iApps? If I am not mistaken Apple was named as a plantif on the litigation of MS. The main reason: MS gave away a free browser (Internet Explorer), which drove Netscape, and other compitition out of buisness. Now were advocationg an iBrowser? Isn't that like the pot calling the kettle black?
 
Originally posted by backdraft
Do you know how much code would have to be re-written and recompiled in order to run OS X on an x86 chip? Imagine how long it took adobe to port Photoshop to OS X, it would take even longer to come out with an X86 OS X port, all the current apps would break A LOT of code would have to be written in many apps. Not to mention that Apple is a hardware company and that OS X would run sloooower on an X86 architecture, the underlying X86 would have to be emulated.

Bad idea = (

Not to mention that a Mac won't be a Mac anymore if were to happen.

-backdraft

just a quick point...NeXTstep or OpenStep (I forget which name was used at the time) ran on both Motorola 680x0 and x86 chips...so I wouldn't expect that too much would need to be done for OS X to run on both...
 
How about some of us cool down and stop the personal insults? The only idiots here are the ones who are making such insults. No one here knows everything. It's ok to argue and comment but the personal attacks are just immature. Sure it's frustrating to see many of these posts...especially the ones who repeat the same thing over and over that's been hashed out but unless there's a policy against, they're entitled so get a grip.

And for what it's worth it is ok to be a monopoly(depends on how you define it of course). The problem that people are trying to identify with the recent MS issues is that you cannot use illegal means to gain or maintain a monopoly.

You also cannot compare the Mac platform with the PC platform on this issue anyways due to the fact that Apple controls both the hardware and software. It is their product. The PC is not MS's product. It is essentially an open platform hence the clones.

The last thing to add is what has already been stated and that is it has to impact a significant number of people in the US for the US government to be involved on this issue. This is why there has not really been many such cases held in the history of the country.

Alright now for some reason this is a sensitive issue(OSX on x86) to some of the folks here. Why? Who the hell knows. If Apple can build a decent platform for a decent price that does little to affect the developers negatively, what is so wrong with that? If it does affect any of the factors I mentioned, sure, go crazy but for now no one knows. Try to remember that.
 
Actually, it happened years ago, circa the 486.

What nobody in the RISC camp expected, however, was that Intel (and later NexGen/AMD and Via) would be able to bolt the x86's CISC instruction set on top of a RISC-ish core and a translation layer, and make it go faster than most pure-RISC chips. Ooops.
Yeah, I'm familiar with the design route Intel has taken with its more recent chips. Whether or not this constitutes CISC hitting a wall is a semantic debate: What makes a chip 'CISC'? The internal design approach, or the external instruction set that it implements? Personally, I vote for the latter. Certainly, that's the definition that makes the most sense here. Generally, when people have spoken of CISC 'hitting the wall' in the context of a Mac vs. PC performance competition, they mean that Intel will be unable to continue increasing their chips' performance while maintaining backwards compatibility with older software. That hasn't happened.

It's interesting to note that the IBM 970 that we're all hoping will restore some sort of performance parity to the Mac uses a translation scheme not dissimilar to that used by the Pentium -- though, most x86 instructions get translated into 2 or 3 'micro-ops', whereas most PPC instructions will translate to a single internal op in the 970. It's worth reading the Ars Technica article on the 970 if you haven't already. Neat stuff.
 
It would be like if Ford would sell a Mustang, but dictate that in order to operate it, you must buy the authorized Ford Driver.

Ford *does* dictate that in order to operate a Mustang, you must buy a Ford engine with it. Why isn't there a problem with that?

If I am not mistaken Apple was named as a plantif on the litigation of MS. The main reason: MS gave away a free browser (Internet Explorer), which drove Netscape, and other compitition out of buisness. Now were advocationg an iBrowser? Isn't that like the pot calling the kettle black?

The difference is that Apple is not in a position to drive a browser competitor out of business like MS did, because unlike MS, Apple is not a monopoly.
 
Originally posted by Somebody


Ford *does* dictate that in order to operate a Mustang, you must buy a Ford engine with it. Why isn't there a problem with that?[/i].

What Ford doesn't do is tell you that you have to leave that Ford engine in that Ford car. If you feel like it and have the resources, you'll fully capable of putting someone else's engine in that car. All you have to do is undo some USER ACCESSIBLE bolts and remove the semi-proprietary engine from the car.

In MS's case, they made the car and the engine, but welded the engine in place with some sort of mostly unbreakable metal. You can put another engine in the back and use it instead, but the front engine will always be there weighting you down. :rolleyes:
 
This is probably a big reason why Apple is putting the final nails in OS 9's coffin because it won't run on x86, and why they're making people get used to not booting into OS 9 anymore.
 
x86 on INtel boxes BAD

Lets all face it OS X works so well and dosn't crash (as much)because Apple makes the hardware. PCs suck because Windoze allows anyone to make hardware so you have all these crappy 3rd party drivers running everything. It's suprising Windoze works at all. If Apple made a OS X that worked on other hardware it would destroy their entire "user friendly, never crashes" image. It would be utterly stupid. On the other hand ... 4 Pentiums liquid cooled and true DDR memory on one board running OS X would be somthing I would like to see. ;)
 
Originally posted by bryank1
This is probably a big reason why Apple is putting the final nails in OS 9's coffin because it won't run on x86, and why they're making people get used to not booting into OS 9 anymore.

Ugh... I don't know why so many of you people see the term x86 and then lump it in with "IBM PC Compatible" x86.

There's a lot more in the design and operation of a computer than the CPU's ISA. There is literally no reason why Apple couldn't continue to be the only supplier of hardware that can run MacOS X if they moved to x86 CPU's. They don't have to build an x86 PC that uses the PC BIOS architecture, they could build x86 computers that required an OpenFirmware architecture to be compatible and capable of booting the MacOS. There are hundreds of routes they could take to prevent generic PC systems from being able to run the MacOS, while still getting the performance and cost savings of using commodity components for CPU's and chipsets.

IBM makes RS/6000 machines with PowerPC 604e's in them, can you run MacOS 9 on them?

-Nathan
 
Actually, this could still be a reason for them to encourage the dropping of OS9. I see your point Nathan, but the other thing to consider is that Apple just don't want to put resources into making OS9 work with this new system. So they want us to drop it, which is just fine and dandy by me.

Personally, I don't think we'll see an x86 Mac anyime soon. This would be a big shake-up and comes too soon after the OSX transition. Apple have been getting by on the G4 for a while now, they can get by until the 970.

This x86 build of OSX is a backup for lots of reasons already mentioned (I like the doomsday idea one!). To be a valid backup it needs to be up to date and tested.

biscuit
 
Broken record

This thread has turned into a broken record:
Troll: "Windows PC hardware sucks, Apple shouldn't go there"
Response: "X86 doesn't == Windows PC"
Troll 2: "Windows PC hardware sucks, Apple shouldn't go there"
...
:rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by naschbac


Ugh... I don't know why so many of you people see the term x86 and then lump it in with "IBM PC Compatible" x86.

There's a lot more in the design and operation of a computer than the CPU's ISA. There is literally no reason why Apple couldn't continue to be the only supplier of hardware that can run MacOS X if they moved to x86 CPU's. They don't have to build an x86 PC that uses the PC BIOS architecture, they could build x86 computers that required an OpenFirmware architecture to be compatible and capable of booting the MacOS. There are hundreds of routes they could take to prevent generic PC systems from being able to run the MacOS, while still getting the performance and cost savings of using commodity components for CPU's and chipsets.

Quite true, however, Apple needs to be cautious here. Remember, it was IBM that last thought it could create "the only IBM PC" by creating a special BIOS chip. Compaq cleanroom reimplemented the chip, which was later deemed legal, and the "IBM Compatible" industry was born.

That is not to say that Apple will follow the same route. But it's getting dangerously close. Perhaps someone more educated in the specifics of the Compaq coupe could shed some light on what Apple could do differently to maintain a "separate but equal" Mac line of hardware/software on x86?
 
Re: Broken record

Originally posted by eric_n_dfw
Troll 2: "Windows PC hardware sucks, Apple shouldn't go there"
...
:rolleyes:

Which I find hilarious, considering Windows hardware == Mac hardware in all respects except:

1) the CPU
2) the Motherboard (incl chipset)
3) the power supply and case

Changing the CPU to x86 doesn't mean that the Mac would have to support any more hardware or software than it currently does, just that the underlying CPU would come from Intel instead of Moto/IBM.

Still, I don't see the PPC architecture as having problems. And that's all that a switch to x86 would buy you: an x86 architecture instead of a PPC architecture. Macs would still not run Windows and you'd still not be able to "build your own" Mac any more than you can today and you'd still not be able to buy a Mac from Dell. Your apps would just be passing along outdated and kludgy instructions to the CPU instead of PPC instructions.
 
Marklar and the New Mac?

Again this is all speculation.


But from a marketing point of view.. PC's sales are down. Apple obviously realizes this with their Digital Hub approach. How did they approach the Digital hub strategy? By writing software they thought people would find useful. Not to mention an entirely new operating system.

Apple has never been more active in the Software aspect of their computer.

I do agree that making a flat out x86 conversion of OS X for any PC user to install on their desktop would be shooting their own hardware sales foot.

I have a lot of friends itching to switch to OS X. Some for Java Developement (despite Sun's lack of implement the latest revisions of JDK to OS X on time), some just because they prefer the lack annoying security flaws.

What I do believe is that Apple may be trying to reduce cost of hardware. Hardware is "hard" (pardon the pun) to sell these days for Computer manufacturers. The ability for apple to reduce the cost of hardware is essential. It is the next logical step for them to do.. They have the OS, they have the software... They are getting the developers. It is now time to get the users over.

What we may see? Apple switching to x86 "lower-end" computers. Manufactured by Apple themselves . While higher end machine will stick with the latest Flavour of higher-end Motorola Processors. Apple has the ability to control which machine OS X (x86) versions could be installed on via the MAC ROM. Apple owns the rights to the information on this chip. As such controls the installation of OS X to their own brand of machine.

Why i believe they may be switching processors... Reduce costs of average machines. Reduce costs of Server Hardware (Apple obviously wants to get into this market).

What may be an indicator? Apple is completely dropping Classic support for new "machines". Why? obviously to push and allow vendors to focus on one "NEW" operating system.

or

Could it mean that the next generation Computers simply will not be able to run Classic mode? ie. x86 processors? is this an indication of what apple is planning to do?

It is all specualtion, but I believe it to be a smart turn for Apple to reduce costs for average users, and open up the market to allow apple to focus on new software developement and focus for their wonderful OS.

Only time will tell though..
 
Apple Prices not that high...

I have just done a price comparison between the Apple Powerbook G4 Ti Ultimate w/ DVD-R that I just purchased :) and the Sony Vaio GRX600 w/ DVD-R that I almost purchased. Turns out that with the fastest configurations (1Ghz apple vs 2Ghz Intel), max ram, HD, and all the goodies, plus a wireless card, wireless access point, extra battery and 3 year warranty, the prices are identical - $4085 apple versus $4089 Sony. Because both are multimedia-intensive they compare nicely. Just an interesting point for everyone who says macs are so expensive - you get what you pay for. If you want a POS dell go for it, but if you want a sweet apple or Sony, you're gonna have to pay.
 
Thats for portables. Check the same thing for desktops, and you will find a drastic difference.

The top end PowerMac is pushing 4000.00 while the same config in PC's is around 2500.00
 
Originally posted by LethalWolfe


eric_n_dfw relax, I got this one. :D

Dude, that is the dumbest thing I've read so far. Go back and read the thread to find out why.

Actually, I take that back. Yer too lazy to read the thread in the first place, no reason to think you'll start reading it now. Here is why that's the dumbest thing I've read so far. That idea has been posted, and shot down, more than a few times already. Thanks for and taking up space.


dear rod,
eat me. no, wait. now eat me. good job. thanks.
 
Re: Monopoly

Originally posted by sturm375


From Dictionary.com


There is only 1 seller of Apple Hardware, and OS. While there are distributers, they all get thier stuff from Apple. Again, you want to run an Apple computer, you must us a Mac OS. You want to run a Mac OS, you must have Apple hardware. With the notable exception of some talented programers that have disected Apple hardware so they can run Linux on it.


So Epson, HP, Lexmark, and others are monopolies because you have to use their ink. Texas insruments is a monopoly because I can't run anything else on their stupid calculators. Mercedes, Volkswagon and a few others are monopolies because you can't start their cars without using their keys. I can come up with more, but they'd be as ridiculuos as your Apple/OS/monopoly statement.
 
Originally posted by tjwett
dear rod,
eat me. no, wait. now eat me. good job. thanks.
It would be more fun watching them beat each other with rubber chickens.

And it would take a lot of beer to make that fun.

:rolleyes:
 
A while ago, I remember doing some research about video compositing software. One company I looked into was Nothing Real, this was before the Apple days. Nothing Real had two products in those days: Shake and Tremor.

The day Apple bought Nothing Real, the Nothing Real website went offline for a few days and when it came back, any mention of Tremor had vanished.

Tremor was their latest product,still version 1.0, and unlike Shake, it was an integrated hardware/software solution. This made for superior speed. You had to buy the box and the software together, the software would only run on that one configuration.

I believe this hardware was a custom-made windows 2000 box with lots of extras added, and I'm not just talking about one or two PCI cards here.

If Apple would want to bring Tremor back, they would need:

1 - A RAID, which is about to appear
2 - A server: X-serve
3 - A custom-made computer, seriously optimised for video-editing and compositing, running OS X. If this specialised Mac would run faster with an AMD (and the reports suggest just that, FCP seems "to fly" on these machines) why not put an AMD chip in it ? Video editing/compositing stations are notoriously allergic to lots of software, they only need to run the editing software (FCP) compositing system(Tremor) and a webbrowser to allow for communication. So no need to worry about "all software companies having to re-write for x86", you wouldn't want to run their software on these boxes anyway.

Why would Apple want to bring out a Tremor type of system ?
The margins are very, very high for high-end systems that allow for that sort of real-time editing/compositing at HD-resolution.
It also would add a lot of credibility to Apple's efforts to enter the pro-video market, the sort of credibility that you can't get thru advertising, which will feed into the not-so-pro market. Apple wants you think video+computer=Apple Mac. 10 years ago it was graphics+computer=Apple Mac, and lets face it, that reputation has served them well.

That's my guess
 
Originally posted by Tall Guy
It also would add a lot of credibility to Apple's efforts to enter the pro-video market, the sort of credibility that you can't get thru advertising, which will feed into the not-so-pro market. Apple wants you think video+computer=Apple Mac. 10 years ago it was graphics+computer=Apple Mac, and lets face it, that reputation has served them well.

That's my guess

I agree w/the all of yer post but this part. Apple already owns the pro video market. The post production industry runs on Apple hardware, and Apple software is gaining ground everyday. Does Apple have a finishing/compositing setup to rival Avid's Symphony, or an SGI box running Smoke/flame? Not yet. But I do agree that's why they bought Nothing Real.


Lethal
 
As far as the $2500 vs $4000 comparison goes, here again we have to keep in mind the TCO when pricing machines.

Yes, all of us will have to grant you that top-of-the-line PowerMacs are not quite equal to but very close to the best performance-wise to some of the best AMD/Intel systems--and still initially cost more. On the face of it this seems like either a rip-off or a status symbol chic premium for a slower yet glitzier machine.

But look three years down the road and what will your system have cost you. I worked in a small-scale publishing house that dumped all of their Macs for PCs in 1998-99. The systems they bought to replace them were cheap HPs or occasionally Vaio desktop units, along with 1 Compaq laptop for me (BEGGED them for a Pismo--no dice). What do you supposed happened?

My compaq laptop had to be shipped to Texas and have its defective mobo replaced, which still didn't cure the persisting HD problem it was sent in for. The HP system driver for one of the Pavillions did not even recognize the sound card it SHIPPED WITH. Just in lost labor revenues with those two systems the company probably ate $2000-2500 over the course of one year. Forget about the technical support onsite for various probelms @ $75-90/hr. Yikes! And of course, the 45 known Mac viruses vs the 50,000+ known PC bugs and the long line of security patches for XP come into play as well.

A bulletproof, crashproof, more intuitive computing environment is WAY less expensive in the long run than a rocket fast but less reliable and less user-friendly one. Yes, I know Windows XP gets closer and closer to a "Mac-like" experience, but Apple keeps moving the bar up on ol' MS. Unless you are rendering video 24/7 and need absolute speed above all else, it doesn't make sense to not use a Mac if the criteria is COST. Macs are CHEAPER in the long run.

I ended up buying the exact Pismo my company refused me. Guess how many times I've had it in for service? ZERO. My wife even dropped it from waist high onto a hardwood floor--not even a scratch. My Compaq's latching mechanism didn't last a week.

As far as this actually pertains to the argument on this thread, I would say that Apple does not need to be the absolute fastest, just the best (highest quality, cheapest in the long run, user-friendliest, most secure). As much as we may hate it, Apple can afford to wait out the development cycles of both Moto and IBM until the next generations of better CPUs reach mass production.

Apple no longer cares to be the fastest. They want to be the best. Seeing that most modern computing horsepower is 100-fold overkill for the average user, their strategy makes sense. Once Moto and IBM deliver the goods, Apple will give the pro user a solid-performing system near the top of the heap. But fastest? For Apple, that's just not the most important factor anymore. I for one prefer near-the-top speed with completely unparalleled user friendliness, security, hardware quality, OS, and hardware/software compatability and intergration. I want a worry-free computing experience with no downtime. And I'm willing to pay extra for it up front because I'll make it back and then some in the long run.

But that's me. The thing isn't a toy--I don't own a single game. I don't give a rat's rectum how many frames per second Quake runs on my Pismo. It's a communications tool and an audio/visual arts creativity platform for me, and for those things it is fine. If I get the PowerLogix upgrade it will run FCP same as a 667 TiBook.

Apple is in no hurry to change horses to x86. No reason to. If it weren't for some non-recurring losses that they wrote off this quarter, Apple would have netted $7 milion in a bear market tech-slamming economy. Not bad. Certainly they are not about to make a move of desperation like switching to AMD/Intel chips. WHERE'S THE FIRE?
 
HOW ABOUT THIS

Instead of you all talking about apple having an OS X that you can install on a PC and blah blah blah, Apple switches to AMD Motherboards.

Think guys, an AMD 2600+ at 2.6 with 2GB DDR, GeForce 8x AGP, USB 2, all the xtras.

That would be such a nice speed....
 
Re: HOW ABOUT THIS

Originally posted by MacAztec
Instead of you all talking about apple having an OS X that you can install on a PC and blah blah blah, Apple switches to AMD Motherboards.

Think guys, an AMD 2600+ at 2.6 with 2GB DDR, GeForce 8x AGP, USB 2, all the xtras.

That would be such a nice speed....

Ahhh, you do know that a AMD Athlon 2600 runs at 2.13 Ghz and not 2.6, right? 2600 is a performance rating. If I add my two 1.25Ghz G4s, I think I'm a little ahead. :) USB2? Not interested. Faster AGP would be nice, but I'm familiar with what the 8X spec would provide.
 
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