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21Southwick

macrumors newbie
Jan 26, 2018
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The District
Hey guys thanks for all the feedback and details. I understand their might be some limitations on the M1 and having a full 3 extra thunderbolt 3 ports. But I wonder if someone who knows more than me does this hub add additional USB-C ports too? I assume the Thunderbolt standard still supports USB-C as well but I can really use more Thunderbolt ports but I really can use more USB-C ports too. Thanks in advance for the help.
 

joevt

Contributor
Jun 21, 2012
6,656
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You're right. Sorry. I will make corrections to my previous postings to avoid confusion of people finding this thread with google.
Apparently Apple is "misusing" the abbreviation MST e.g. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208366 (however, that wasn't the article I originally read)
They use MST correctly. It is used in relation to the first 4K (year 2013?) displays that existed which used MST to transmit two streams of 1920x2160 over a single DisplayPort 1.2 connection to make an image of 4K 60Hz.

For the LG UltraFine 5K, they use the term "dual link SST" which means two full DisplayPort 1.2 connections which it can get from Thunderbolt. It is the same for dual cable displays like the Dell UP2715K and the HP Z27q.

At https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...imited-to-5k-resolution.2215667/post-28089870 is a person with 3 different sized tiled displays (old 4K60 MST, iMac 5K60 dual link SST, XDR 6K60 dual link SST).

I have a 4K144 dual link SST tiled display (uses dual link to get 144 Hz instead of the max 120 Hz).


Hey guys thanks for all the feedback and details. I understand their might be some limitations on the M1 and having a full 3 extra thunderbolt 3 ports. But I wonder if someone who knows more than me does this hub add additional USB-C ports too? I assume the Thunderbolt standard still supports USB-C as well but I can really use more Thunderbolt ports but I really can use more USB-C ports too. Thanks in advance for the help.
The Thunderbolt ports also do everything a USB-C port can. But if you just need USB-C, then there are less expensive USB-C hubs. On the other hand, up to two Thunderbolt ports can have full DisplayPort alt mode (4 lanes), but a USB-C hub can have only one port with DisplayPort alt mode, and that port only gets two lanes of DisplayPort if the other ports can do USB 3.x (if the other ports are limited to USB 2.x than the USB-C port can have four lanes of DisplayPort).
 

nicho

macrumors 601
Feb 15, 2008
4,216
3,210
The Thunderbolt ports also do everything a USB-C port can. But if you just need USB-C, then there are less expensive USB-C hubs. On the other hand, up to two Thunderbolt ports can have full DisplayPort alt mode (4 lanes), but a USB-C hub can have only one port with DisplayPort alt mode, and that port only gets two lanes of DisplayPort if the other ports can do USB 3.x (if the other ports are limited to USB 2.x than the USB-C port can have four lanes of DisplayPort).

Examples?

This is already fairly cheap for a thunderbolt device. I'm not sure your assertion that alternatives are available cheaper is true...
 

joevt

Contributor
Jun 21, 2012
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Examples?

This is already fairly cheap for a thunderbolt device. I'm not sure your assertion that alternatives are available cheaper is true...
Might be some examples in these threads:


The OWC Thunderbolt hub is nice because it does Thunderbolt as well as USB-C, all USB-C ports have 15W, and two ports can do full DisplayPort. I wonder if the OWC Thunderbolt 4 Hub can be used as a USB-C hub for non-Thunderbolt/USB4 computers? USB4 hubs are supposed to be able to do that.
 
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nicho

macrumors 601
Feb 15, 2008
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Might be some examples in these threads:


The OWC Thunderbolt hub is nice because it does Thunderbolt as well as USB-C, all USB-C ports have 15W, and two ports can do full DisplayPort. I wonder if the OWC Thunderbolt 4 Hub can be used as a USB-C hub for non-Thunderbolt/USB4 computers? USB4 hubs are supposed to be able to do that.

The only one I could find in there with multiple USB-C ports and availability is this one:


and it costs $50 more than this product.
 
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21Southwick

macrumors newbie
Jan 26, 2018
9
6
The District
They use MST correctly. It is used in relation to the first 4K (year 2013?) displays that existed which used MST to transmit two streams of 1920x2160 over a single DisplayPort 1.2 connection to make an image of 4K 60Hz.

For the LG UltraFine 5K, they use the term "dual link SST" which means two full DisplayPort 1.2 connections which it can get from Thunderbolt. It is the same for dual cable displays like the Dell UP2715K and the HP Z27q.

At https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...imited-to-5k-resolution.2215667/post-28089870 is a person with 3 different sized tiled displays (old 4K60 MST, iMac 5K60 dual link SST, XDR 6K60 dual link SST).

I have a 4K144 dual link SST tiled display (uses dual link to get 144 Hz instead of the max 120 Hz).



The Thunderbolt ports also do everything a USB-C port can. But if you just need USB-C, then there are less expensive USB-C hubs. On the other hand, up to two Thunderbolt ports can have full DisplayPort alt mode (4 lanes), but a USB-C hub can have only one port with DisplayPort alt mode, and that port only gets two lanes of DisplayPort if the other ports can do USB 3.x (if the other ports are limited to USB 2.x than the USB-C port can have four lanes of DisplayPort).
Thank you for the information joevt. That is really helpful. I do need the USB-C ports but I also can really use the extra Thunderbolt 3 ports too. I also appreciate your explanation about the extra abilities of the Thunderbolt ports. I haven't embraced that technology as much yet. I only have one or two devices that are Thunderbolt 3 so far (I do have an external SSD and an eGPU which the later I understand from the forum might or might not be supported in future Macs. Hopefully they will. ??) So I am glad to hear that they still will perform both just like my iMac and MacBook Pro/Air etc. Thank you again for the help.
 

joevt

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Jun 21, 2012
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The only one I could find in there with multiple USB-C ports and availability is this one:


and it costs $50 more than this product.
Did you find in there ones that meet your needs?
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07ZBLVJXF is $40 and has 4 USB-C ports 2 USB-C ports and 2 USB-A ports (10 Gbps).

correction: 2 ports are USB-A
 
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repoman27

macrumors 6502
May 13, 2011
485
167
Examples?

This is already fairly cheap for a thunderbolt device. I'm not sure your assertion that alternatives are available cheaper is true...
The closest such thing I've seen is the IOGEAR GUH3C22P, which is $39.99 at retail right now. This is a 4-port USB3 10Gbps hub with two USB Type-C and two USB Type-A downstream ports. The upstream connection to the host is provided by a short, captive USB Type-C cable. Up to 100W USB PD is supported on one of the downstream facing USB Type-C ports allowing up to 85W passthrough to the host. So in reality this only provides one additional USB Type-C port with no DisplayPort or Thunderbolt capabilities.

The Juiced VertexHUB mentioned in one of joevt's links looks like even more of a unicorn, offering a whopping four downstream USB Type-C 10Gbps ports, although without USB Power Delivery capability. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be available anywhere at the moment.

Did you find in there ones that meet your needs?
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07ZBLVJXF is $40 and has 4 USB-C ports (10 Gbps).
The Juiced QuadHUB is 2x USB Type-C + 2x USB Type-A, and bus powered only, which is a major drawback.
 
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joevt

Contributor
Jun 21, 2012
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It doesn’t. Go look at it.
Fixed.

There's this one:

It has four USB-C ports and three USB-A ports (probably uses two 4 port 10 Gbps hubs) - twice as many ports plus power supply means twice as expensive. It has not enough power for laptop charging but enough power for device charging.

But we should leave the USB-C discussion for those other threads.
 
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IgnatiusTate

macrumors newbie
Nov 25, 2020
1
0
It states 60W power supply, and "up to" 60W power to the host computer. I gather that means 60W is the total device power to be split with all attached devices, meaning with a handful of usb-c devices attached at 15W each the host computer may not get close to 60W of power. Or will never get 60W with any devices attached for that matter. Am I understanding that correctly?

Other docks I've seen have upwards of 180W of power in order to handle all devices and power delivery. I'm reaching out to OWC sales support to confirm, but does this not seem like an oversight for a 60W device like the 13" MacBook Pro?

[Update]: MacSales support said the 60W stated is dedicated to the host device, and doesn't include the peripherals. They weren't able to tell me the total power of the device though.
 
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joevt

Contributor
Jun 21, 2012
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It states 60W power supply, and "up to" 60W power to the host computer. I gather that means 60W is the total device power to be split with all attached devices, meaning with a handful of usb-c devices attached at 15W each the host computer may not get close to 60W of power. Or will never get 60W with any devices attached for that matter. Am I understanding that correctly?

Other docks I've seen have upwards of 180W of power in order to handle all devices and power delivery. I'm reaching out to OWC sales support to confirm, but does this not seem like an oversight for a 60W device like the 13" MacBook Pro?

[Update]: MacSales support said the 60W stated is dedicated to the host device, and doesn't include the peripherals. They weren't able to tell me the total power of the device though.
There's a picture of the power input labeled 20V 5.5A on the product page at https://eshop.macsales.com/shop/owc...n=cj&cjevent=2eeb0d3d2fb611eb823803e70a1c0e0d

The power supply was mentioned at https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...ac.2270255/page-4?post=29288579#post-29288579

and some math at the end of https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...olt-3-ports-to-your-mac.2270255/post-29288800
 
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blackcrayon

macrumors 68020
Mar 10, 2003
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Looks like a buy for me - I have an nvme ssd in a thunderbolt case using one thunderbolt port, it's fast but seems to top out around 20 Gb/sec. I'd get one of these if it let me use another device from the same port and still get that same disk speed plus some more lower speed USB ports.
 

joevt

Contributor
Jun 21, 2012
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Looks like a buy for me - I have an nvme ssd in a thunderbolt case using one thunderbolt port, it's fast but seems to top out around 20 Gb/sec. I'd get one of these if it let me use another device from the same port and still get that same disk speed plus some more lower speed USB ports.
Thunderbolt 3 won't do much more than 22 Gbps (2750 MB/s). But it's unlikely that you'll use two high bandwidth devices at the same time. Even so, if one is doing read and the other is doing write, then that's still OK since they use different lines.
 
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blackcrayon

macrumors 68020
Mar 10, 2003
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Thunderbolt 3 won't do much more than 22 Gbps (2750 MB/s). But it's unlikely that you'll use two high bandwidth devices at the same time. Even so, if one is doing read and the other is doing write, then that's still OK since they use different lines.
Yep, that would be good enough. Just to be able to physically have multiple devices connected that have access to as much bandwidth as they're able to use in that bandwidth pool. Thanks for the clarification on what the actual max would be for each. It makes up for a lot of devices that don't include a daisy chain port.
 

jlocker

macrumors 65816
Jun 20, 2011
1,022
1,194
Lake Michigan
I just got this hub yesterday and it is amazing fast even with a 2019 MacBook Pro 16. The new Intel standard for Thunderbolt 4 processor that is in this hub handles all the 40 Gbps managing across the Thunderbolt multiple ports. This Thunderbolt 4 hub is worth every penny. With a EGPU box, a big USB C hub and a displayport 1.4 cable for my 35in gaming monitor and the cable for the Oculus Quest 2 headset did not leave my any free ports. Now I have three more thunderbolt ports and a USB 3.2 port with this hub.
 
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jlocker

macrumors 65816
Jun 20, 2011
1,022
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Lake Michigan
Looks like a buy for me - I have an nvme ssd in a thunderbolt case using one thunderbolt port, it's fast but seems to top out around 20 Gb/sec. I'd get one of these if it let me use another device from the same port and still get that same disk speed plus some more lower speed USB ports.
I am totally amazed with this first ever thunderbolt 4 hub, works with bootcamp just fine and with 50 watts across the 4 ports for devices it really did the trick for me. Don't have to deal with like the old days with SCSI chaining have having to be carful unplugging now devices can be unplugged from the hub. Have 4 more ports gives me more expansion for the 2019 MacBook Pro 16.
 
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joevt

Contributor
Jun 21, 2012
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I just got this hub yesterday and it is amazing fast even with a 2019 MacBook Pro 16. The new Intel standard for Thunderbolt 4 processor that is in this hub handles all the 40 Gbps managing across the Thunderbolt multiple ports. This Thunderbolt 4 hub is worth every penny. With a EGPU box, a big USB C hub and a displayport 1.4 cable for my 35in gaming monitor and the cable for the Oculus Quest 2 headset did not leave my any free ports. Now I have three more thunderbolt ports and a USB 3.2 port with this hub.
The OWC Thunderbolt Hub is still in the preorder stage. They say shipping starts in early December. How do you have one now? Can you show pictures? What does it look link in System Information.app? In IORegistryExplorer.app? In Windows Thunderbolt software? In Windows Device Manager?
 

joevt

Contributor
Jun 21, 2012
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is that 3 TB ports at 40Gbps each?
Yes, but the upstream is also 40 Gbps. So while each of the 3 downstream can do 40 Gbps (that's for DisplayPort up to 37 Gbps and PCIe up to 22 - 24 Gbps) the total max is also 40 Gbps. This is ok since the computer is not usually transmitting to/from all downstream devices at once.

37 Gbps of DisplayPort is for a XDR display connected to a GPU that does not do DSC (dual HBR3 signals is used instead of HBR2 with DSC). Dual HBR3 usually doesn't work from a dock or hub though. It is unknown if that is true with this OWC Thunderbolt hub (probably?).
34 Gbps of DisplayPort is for dual HBR2 displays which a Thunderbolt dock should be able to do. The highest I've been able to do is dual 4096 x 2304 x 68.595 Hz x 24 bpp = 31 Gbps without a dock (unclear what the overhead is).
Whatever is not used by DisplayPort can be used by PCIe data (and/or USB data in the case of a USB4 compatible hub - it is unknown if the OWC Thunderbolt hub decodes tunnelled USB or if it can be connected to a USB4 host that does not support Thunderbolt).
 

AlyOops

macrumors newbie
Dec 6, 2020
1
0
I have the macbook pro 13 m1 unit. Just ordered owc thunderbolt 4 unit. Hope it ship soon. Also got Samsung t7 1tb ssd drive. Will order the lacie rugged ssd pro soon.

Temporary using satech hub and dongles. Be glad to trash those asap
 

repoman27

macrumors 6502
May 13, 2011
485
167
This thread is fairly well deceased at this point, but OWC recently pushed the shipping date for the Thunderbolt Hub out to early February. They have also listed a new Thunderbolt Dock for $249—their version of the full-sized Intel Thunderbolt 4 Dock reference design.

Yes, but the upstream is also 40 Gbps. So while each of the 3 downstream can do 40 Gbps (that's for DisplayPort up to 37 Gbps and PCIe up to 22 - 24 Gbps) the total max is also 40 Gbps. This is ok since the computer is not usually transmitting to/from all downstream devices at once.

37 Gbps of DisplayPort is for a XDR display connected to a GPU that does not do DSC (dual HBR3 signals is used instead of HBR2 with DSC). Dual HBR3 usually doesn't work from a dock or hub though. It is unknown if that is true with this OWC Thunderbolt hub (probably?).
34 Gbps of DisplayPort is for dual HBR2 displays which a Thunderbolt dock should be able to do. The highest I've been able to do is dual 4096 x 2304 x 68.595 Hz x 24 bpp = 31 Gbps without a dock (unclear what the overhead is).
Whatever is not used by DisplayPort can be used by PCIe data (and/or USB data in the case of a USB4 compatible hub - it is unknown if the OWC Thunderbolt hub decodes tunnelled USB or if it can be connected to a USB4 host that does not support Thunderbolt).
Titan Ridge and newer Thunderbolt controllers support DisplayPort 1.4 / HBR3, whereas most Thunderbolt 3 docks are based on older Alpine Ridge controllers which are only capable of DisplayPort 1.2 / HBR2. The OWC Thunderbolt Hub uses the Goshen Ridge JHL8440 Thunderbolt 4 Controller, which can handle DP 1.4, HBR3, and DSC passthrough.

In theory, the JHL8440 supports tunneling for up to 40 Gbit/s (in one direction) of DisplayPort packets, 32 Gbit/s (in both directions) of PCIe packets, and 10 Gbit/s (in both directions) of USB3 packets, with the combined total traffic not exceeding 40 Gbit/s in either direction. Thunderbolt 4 is USB4 plus Thunderbolt 3 interoperability, so yes, this hub will also work with USB4 hosts and devices that do not support Thunderbolt interoperability. Also, both upstream and downstream facing ports on all USB4 docks are required to support Thunderbolt 3 interoperability. Despite OWC's use of the term hub, I believe that both Intel and the USB-IF would classify this device as a dock due to the inclusion of the downstream facing USB Type-A port.

By my calculations, the Apple Pro Display XDR at 60 Hz without DSC requires 38.7 Gbit/s of DisplayPort bandwidth. 4096 x 2304 @ 68.595 Hz, 24 bpp works out to 16.36 Gbit/s which is still under the 17.28 Gbit/s limit of HBR2. Although it's a slightly lower resolution and frame rate, 4096 x 2160 @ 60 Hz, 30 bpp actually uses a bit more bandwidth at 16.7 Gbit/s. To top the Pro Display XDR's bandwidth would require something like a pair of HBR3 capable Gigabyte Aorus FI27Q-P displays at 2560 x 1440, 30 bpp, and 158-162 Hz.

PCIe tunneling to any single Thunderbolt endpoint is limited to the equivalent of a PCIe Gen3 x4 link. Given an 128 B maximum TLP payload size and 16 B TLP headers, that should yield up to 25.92 Gbit/s of throughput after accounting for encoding and protocol overhead. The observed PCIe throughput over Thunderbolt seems to hit a wall at around 21.32 Gbit/s. However, that would mean that at least 25.92 Gbit/s of PCIe packets are being tunneled... which seems an odd coincidence.
 
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KPOM

macrumors P6
Oct 23, 2010
18,031
7,870
This thread is fairly well deceased at this point, but OWC recently pushed the shipping date for the Thunderbolt Hub out to early February. They have also listed a new Thunderbolt Dock for $249—their version of the full-sized Intel Thunderbolt 4 Dock reference design.
My Thunderbolt Hub pre-order arrived today. I confirmed that it works with the M1 MacBook Air. It also appears to work fine with my TB3-equipped 2018 HP EliteBook 840 G5, though HP’s Thunderbolt software reports that the hub “is not certified for PC use.” I do see that new orders won’t ship until February, though their new Thunderbolt Dock appears to be in stock and shipping.

Something to point out is that the Thunderbolt Hub does not work unless it is plugged into the rather bulky power supply (i.e. it won’t work off bus power). OWC should be more clear about that.
 
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KPOM

macrumors P6
Oct 23, 2010
18,031
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OWC sells two different versions of this product, one for Windows laptops and another one for Macs, I wonder if they aren't cross compatible.
I bought the “Mac” version and it works fine with my HP PC (with a Thunderbolt 3, not TB4) port. I think they have since dropped the separate “versions” from their website.
 
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