Palm Cobalt and Mac OS X

[restiffbard]

time to start hammering Jobs for a PDA again

this is just utterly sad. I was actually thinking about getting a new palm when the next generation rolls out later this year. I was. I'm not now.

The number one reason I even bought a palm in the first place was the out of box compatibility with Apple.

I suppose I'll just get a memo pad at the grocery when I need an upgrade.

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

Re: Re: Re: mobile phones

Originally posted by rog


Without native Mac support, Palm developers will stop making mac conduits and mac users will be screwed. Apple is never going to make a PDA because PDAs are going to die and become converged devices like the Treo. After using my Treo a couple days, I would have never gone back to a regular PDA and a cell phone.

...

If you can't use either major PDA OS with a mac out of the box, that is a huge problem for Apple. iSync is a joke and as it is is still dependent on Palm software. It also doesn't make up for lack of mac specific conduits.

Maybe you have a point. Maybe Apple should (if they haven't already) be working on a iPod/phone product that would give us a PDA also.

If the marketshare is so small for Mac apps, they (Palm) should be able to pay for our sync software. I should not have to pay extra for a mainstream application to make a mainstream product work.

 

[michaelb]

Re: Re: Email Palmsource !!!!

As an update to my previous post to the PalmSource feedback link (which may just go unread by anyone of importance), I've also sent a letter directly to Mr Larry Slotnick, who is the Chief Products Officer and the one who stated at the conference that PalmSource isn't developing a Mac version of the Palm Desktop.

Poking around, I found the following email address is probably his (it hasn't bounced in a few hours, so is most likely okay). If you are concerned about this issue, please send a politely worded protest to him.

larry.slotnick@palmsource.com

Larry Slotnick
Chief Products Officer
PalmSource

Dear Larry,

I am extremely disappointed to read that you no longer intend to support the Mac OS with your future products.

As a Palm user since 1996, having owned six iterations of them up to my current T3 and recommended them to countless numbers of buyers (both Mac and PC users), I feel that my support of the Palm platform may now be drawing to an end.

I am aware that 3rd party solution(s) may be available to provide the missing synch support, just as they exist for using Pocket PC devices on a Mac. However, by not providing "out of the box" support for the Mac platform, you are sending a clear message to both the press and the Mac-using community that you believe the platform no longer worth your attention.

I strongly urge you to reconsider this short-sighted and potentially damaging move. You may not be aware that many of us Mac users do actually talk to PC users and influence their PDA buying decisions. To jettison the minority Mac platform because of its low marketshare is one thing, but to cause them to become disgusted advocates for competing products is another.

Please reconsider your strategy.

Sincerely,

Michael -------
Palm user since '96

 

[7on]

I dunno what you're smoking but I use iCal in correlation with my Palm daily!

http://www2.truman.edu/~jps137/web/ical.jpg

However I still think the address book syncage could be better done. I never really liked Palm desktop a whole lot, but my Palm was the first device that changed my life. Being able to write things down and stuff. Then it automatically balances my checkbook too. Since my Palm does everything I need it to, it's unlikely that I'll upgrade to cobalt anytime soon (still running 4.1 here). I've always hated the Windows CE/Pocket 2003 PDAs. You could be running like 15 apps and not know about them! I like how with my Palm only one app can be open at once.

Hopefully 10.4 won't break Palm Desktop 4.1's functionality.

 

[DaBuzz]

So I read the article...I didn't see anything revolutionary in the new Palm OS. I own a T3 with a 128Mb Expansion Card. It comes with a File Manager utility, and combined, I don't see anything that knocks my socks off in the new OS.

Of course, it'll be interesting to see what kind of hardware PalmOne puts this into.

I think PalmSource will offer Mac synchronization, once the hardware comes out.

I guess my biggest question for PalmSOURCE (caps mine) is: what are they trying to accomplish with this new OS? Have they really taken the time to evaluate what the PDA market wants/needs, and have they REALLY taken a good look (with PalmOne) at to what OS their customers are using? I can't think of a must-have feature that I can't already do with my current setup - create/edit Word & Excel documents, sync contacts, calendar, Acrobat, voice memos, Bluetooth...am I missing anything, besides 802.11??

I think spinning off Palm into PalmOne and PalmSource was a very, very poor business decision, and one that will come back to haunt them.

As the hardware from PalmOne becomes available, I think they'll be pressured into Mac development.

Just my .02.

 

[rdowns]

Re: Complete and Utter Bull...

Originally posted by prismfinder
Developers always look at Apple's 5% marketshare and think it's not worth building apps for.

This is a big mistake. I'd be willing to bet that a much higher percentage of Mac users use PDAs than PC users. In fact, I know few Mac users that don't use PDAs.

Personally, however, I hope this just means Sony will move in on the Mac space by providing Mac support for the Clie.

Companies not supporting or dropping Mac support sucks but they obviously believe it to be a good business decision. No one drops a platform if they make money developing for and supporting it.

Let's say the entire universe of PDA users is 1000. 50 are Apple users. 950 are Windows users.

Let's say 90% of Apple users are PDA users. Let's say only 20% of Windows users are PDA users. Who do you develop for? 45 users or 190 users?

What if 30% or 40% of Windows users are PDA users? Sadly, the numbers just don't add up for the Mac.

 

[dragonball]

What are they offering if they don't offer support for Mac

If Palm doesn't offer support for Mac OS X then why would you buy a Palm they offer nearly as many options as the Pocket PC so for Mac users what is the appeal?

 

[bignumbers]

I'm sure Apple will provide the support. iSync is a core technology for Apple, and with Apple already providing a calendar and contact manager with the OS (despite being anemic products) I was always expecting Apple to take it over.

The way it came out was sad though - instead there should have been a joint announcement that support for PalmOS 6 would be integrated in with a future version of OS X. I'll bet by the time 10.4 ships this fall (before or around the same time as PalmOS 6/Cobalt) Apple will have it ready.

 

[ephramz]

Move on

OK, people, let's move past denial, anger, and resentment and onto acceptance!

Let's talk about alternatives! Does anyone have experience with using either Windoze CE PDA's or Sony Clie PDA's with MissingSync? Can it still integrate with AddressBook and iCal? I like having one system for my addresses and calendar, rather than one for my PDA, another for my email, iChat, and everything else.

If MissingSync can integrate this seemlessly, it would actually expand our options to other PDA's without sacrificing system wide address and calendar integration. The only thing I still used Palm Desktop for was the Memo's. Hopefully Docs-to-go will still work with MissingSync.

My 2nd Handspring Visor, which was abandoned as a product by Handpsring soon after I bought it, just gave out, so I'm having to think about what to replace it with, if anything! Maybe I'll go back to the 79¢ notebooks! They lasted a lot longer than the PDA's!

 

[MoparShaha]

I'm taking this pretty personally, as well I should. I've been a loyal Palm customer for years, and I'm pretty damn upset. Like many, I have been anxiously waiting OS 6 (Cobalt) for quite some time. I've been holding off a new PDA purchase until its arrival. No more. I will not buy another Palm product. This is not a rash reaction. I've thought about it a great deal. I'd rather give my money to Microsoft. At least a lack of Mac support is expected from them. They are, in a way, the known enemy. Palm, on the other hand, has been a trusted friend of Apple for years, and now like Brutus, they have stabbed us in the back. I'd rather support an old enemy than give patronage to a friend who has betrayed me. PocketPC, here I come.

 

[deejemon]

*

 

[deejemon]

*

 

[tychay]

Re: Re: Complete and Utter Bull...

Originally posted by rdowns
Sadly, the numbers just don't add up for the Mac.

1) The Mac userbase is small but guaranteed and zealous--very few will buy a PocketPC. Apple did fine on exactly this, or have we too soon forgot the early 90's? These are the exact sort of people PalmSource should be catering to as they meet encroachment in their marketshare due to PocketPC (mostly the Dell Axim and other low end models). Read the forums, you'll see that most of us see it as a simple choice between "Palm" and "do without".

2) Palm makes a lot more than the Desktop and Hotsync. In fact, these are minor products well outside their core. Their core is the Palm OS which doesn't care if you are on a Mac or Windows or Linux. In fact, if Palm adopted more open standards, they'd see that immediately.

3) Apple and Microsoft Mac BU both show a willingness to take over the Palm Desktop work through iCal/Address Book and Entourage. All Palm needs to do is maintain the HotSync.

4) I'm pretty sure that the Palm marketshare numbers of Mac users are much greater than 5%.

5) Though a small minority have replaced their PDA with an iPod. Apple has clearly placed it by not allowing data entry and focusing it on a single purpose (music). It isn't a multipurpose like a computer and PDA. Besides, these numbers are tiny to the vast many users who have converged to the cell phone as a replacement for their PDA.

#5 is especially salient. The Mac is pretty much the only computer on the market with great SyncML standards support. If Palm's Mac marketshare numbers have dropped significantly (as they must have for them to decide to drop the Mac platform support), then I think it is just a taste of what they're going to face in the PC and enterprise markets...

Take care,

terry

 

[tychay]

Originally posted by DaBuzz
So I read the article...I didn't see anything revolutionary in the new Palm OS.

There isn't anything "new". After all, we're talking about a handheld here. Heck, have any of you ever tried developing for a Symbian? Try to think of the most moronic way of doing something and odds are that's the solution Symbian stumbled on. I'm astounded that most of todays cell phones even work.

The main new feature is multitasking and more multimedia support. Plus they've rolled in some features that their licensees have done into the OS (HVGA for instance). Not sure if it'll be so important right now, but it'll be nice to be able to do two things at once on my Palm without resorting to hacks.

 

[rdowns]

Re: Move on

Originally posted by ephramz
OK, people, let's move past denial, anger, and resentment and onto acceptance!

Let's talk about alternatives! Does anyone have experience with using either Windoze CE PDA's or Sony Clie PDA's with MissingSync? Can it still integrate with AddressBook and iCal? I like having one system for my addresses and calendar, rather than one for my PDA, another for my email, iChat, and everything else.

If MissingSync can integrate this seemlessly, it would actually expand our options to other PDA's without sacrificing system wide address and calendar integration. The only thing I still used Palm Desktop for was the Memo's. Hopefully Docs-to-go will still work with MissingSync.

My 2nd Handspring Visor, which was abandoned as a product by Handpsring soon after I bought it, just gave out, so I'm having to think about what to replace it with, if anything! Maybe I'll go back to the 79¢ notebooks! They lasted a lot longer than the PDA's!

I use a Clie with MissingSync. Works great on the Mac and I also sync to my Windows box at work. I then, on a weekly basis, export my Palm contacts and import inot Address Book. iSync keeps my contacts up to date on my iPod. I don't use iCal.

 

[Bad Beaver]

pfffff

I mean, who cares?

-I never got the point of using a palmOS device anyway. They are too small to really write upon, they do not understand english... what they are truely good for are PIM functions.
-PocketPC (or whatever it's called now) is just a win desktop shoved into a small screen for win-desktop-enslaved-lemmings who won't even notice how much the "concept" sucks.
-I use my Newton 2100 for all my writing on campus. Because it works (it understands english!OMG!) and suits my needs. Because the OS is well constructed and does not get in the way. Because it has a decent battery and decent real screen estate.
-I use my SE P800 as a PIM, and it serves me quite well despite the nagging setbacks of a 1st Gen. device.

Palm will just wake up soon noticing that their market has vanished, and all they have left is an ugly, expensive pseudo-phone. True phone manufaturers have better phones.
There is no need for an Apple PDA. There is room for smartphones (but as I said, SE and Motorola make good phones already, maybe Apple is the only company that could surpass them, see the iPod effect where Apple took Sony's domain) and room for slates (this means usable size, 8-10" screen, no smaller no bigger, a battery that is worth the name, no 4-6h joke). Palm is loosing its habitat, and soon the fitter devices will have devoured the rest of them. Just my 2 cents.

 

[aswitcher]

Can any body comment on this?

I saw this and saw some of you commented there. Can anyone comment on this guys reliability?

http://www.macnet2.com/more.php?id=455_0_1_0

Palm’s “No Mac Support” policy with Cobalt comes just bit too early, what with Apple’s secret ‘smart-PDA' coming

“Apple is about to introduce a new digital device that will combine the best features of every Palm based and Windows based PDA’s currently flooding the market. The problem is, Palm’s announcement that they will no longer produce further upgrades to Palm Desktop For Mac makes it necessary, for the first time ever, for Apple to announce the coming of this new product before it’s ready. –JM”

By John Manzione


Every time I write about Apple’s market share I get lambasted with negative email telling me over and over and over again “market share doesn’t matter!” Perhaps now that PalmSource has decided there is no money in further support for Mac OS X people might begin to “think different”.

Maybe...

...
The timeline for this product is an introduction by July 2004. Hopefully Apple will deliver it sooner now that Palm has gone public with its withdrawal of Mac support.

It will use an OS X-like OS, having full integration with iCal, Mail, Address Book, iSync, etc. It will be QuickTime driven, with support for the new codec’s, including Mpeg-4. The display will offer 65k colors and will be as large as the largest Sony Clie (there's that Clie thing again). The screen will be touch-sensitive, using Ink as the input software. Just imagine the latest Clie (!) with an Apple twist, meaning a whole new design concept, a flip screen, and a keyboard, FireWire, USB and Bluetooth. And it will be hard-drive based, using the same hard drive in that the new iPod mini uses, but I'm told the drive will be bigger. I have no idea what the cost will be, nor do I have any information about the processor, RAM, or anything else. However, it won’t matter if you have a Mac or PC, it supposedly works with both platforms through the introduction of iSync with Windows and an arrangement with Microsoft. (you don't think Apple advertised iLife '04 as being "Microsoft Office for the rest of your life" for nothing, did you?)


...

 

[lajocaab]

Re: Re: We need the iSlate NOW!

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by lajocaab
Device Size:
8” x 5.0” x .65” (±15oz)
± 1/2 size of a 17” PowerBook
± 2x size of a Palm T3 or an iPod
± size of a DVD movie case
small enough to hold with one hand by the bezel (.5” bezel on the sides)
------------------------------------------------------------------------

You wrote all that up and didn't even pay attention to the one single most obvious lesson there was to be learned from Newton?!

It doesn't matter what a PDA does if it doesn't fit in your pocket!

--------------
You missed the point of the post. iSlate is not a PDA, not a PVP, not an iPod, not a tablet, nor a Notebook comptuer. It is something more than any of them, yet small enough to take with you wherever you need to go. A device doesn't have to fit in you pocket to be portable. Try carrying a DVD case around with you for a few days. You will see how portable something that size really is.

lajocaab

 

[RowdyBacon]

Re: Can any body comment on this?

Originally posted by aswitcher
I saw this and saw some of you commented there. Can anyone comment on this guys reliability?

http://www.macnet2.com/more.php?id=455_0_1_0

Hmmm...never heard of him before. Everything he says makes a degree of sense, and the device he describes seems plausible. But until more dependable corroboration surfaces, it's nothing more than a well crafted yarn.

Sure would be nice if true though. I was just on the verge of buying a new Palm. But after this announcement, I'm no longer considering one of their PDA's.

 

[dieselg4]

Originally posted by ervinocus
I will beg SJ on my knees to have a MacOs powered version of this hardware:

Samsung NEXiO

http://www.pdabuyersguide.com/nexio_S160.htm

HINT: it has a 800 x 480 points screen!!!

$1249! That's madness . . . why not get a Fujitsu Pseries notebook or soemthing more useful. And the "if you wear a jacket or cargo pants" is a bit of a pander to something a jsut a little to big. I work in the fairly liberal and artsy field of architecture, and I have yet to see someone go into a business meeting donning their swanky new AF cargos . . .

 

[wrldwzrd89]

Re: Can any body comment on this?

Originally posted by aswitcher
I saw this and saw some of you commented there. Can anyone comment on this guys reliability?

http://www.macnet2.com/more.php?id=455_0_1_0

From what I can gather, this guy seems to be new to the Mac rumors scene. Therefore, I think it's too early to make any judgments on the reliability of his rumors. That doesn't mean that the rumor he published isn't interesting - I find it very interesting since I'd buy such a product if Apple released one.

 

[BobVB]

Re: Re: Re: We need the iSlate NOW!

Originally posted by lajocaab
quote:
-------------------------------------------------------------

It doesn't matter what a PDA does if it doesn't fit in your pocket!

--------------
You missed the point of the post. iSlate is not a PDA, not a PVP, not an iPod, not a tablet, nor a Notebook comptuer. It is something more than any of them, yet small enough to take with you wherever you need to go.

Laptops are small enough to take with you where ever you go. The need is for something that can fit in your pocket no matter where you are.

A device doesn't have to fit in you pocket to be portable. Try carrying a DVD case around with you for a few days. You will see how portable something that size really is.

That is an exercise in annoyance for me - anything I have to 'grab' each time I stand up and sit down isn't portable enough - I already have something like that - its called an 'iBook'.

The qualitative size differentation is something small enough to have with you all the time, i.e your clothes are your carrying case e.g. a current cell phone or PDA - vs. something something that requires special intent to keep with you, i.e. pick it up, put it down, remember to pick it up, etc. e.g. a dvd case or your device.

Sorry your device would just be an expensive and very losable toy for me and not what I need.

 

[lajocaab]

Re: Re: Re: Re: We need the iSlate NOW!

Originally posted by BobVB
Laptops are small enough to take with you where ever you go. The need is for something that can fit in your pocket no matter where you are.



That is an exercise in annoyance for me - anything I have to 'grab' each time I stand up and sit down isn't portable enough - I already have something like that - its called an 'iBook'.

The qualitative size differentation is something small enough to have with you all the time, i.e your clothes are your carrying case e.g. a current cell phone or PDA - vs. something something that requires special intent to keep with you, i.e. pick it up, put it down, remember to pick it up, etc. e.g. a dvd case or your device.

Sorry your device would just be an expensive and very losable toy for me and not what I need.

------

Although you can carry a PDA or a PVP in your pocket, few people do so on a regular basis. They are simply too big to slip into your pocket & comfortably carry around all day. Most people carry them "outside of a pocket" & "pick them up & put them down". Portable means easy to carry, not necessarily "wearable".

The shift is towards carrying a "smart phone" that has contacts, a calender, & access to the occassional e-mail. The problem is that a smart phone is really too small to comfortably read e-mail & browse the web on a daily basis. It is also too small to comfortably view photos & watch video. It is also too small & underpowered to run simple business applications like Excel, Powerpoint, Filemaker Pro, etc.

Although I use a 4lb, 12" iBook everyday, it is too big & heavy for many situations where I just need to access info or trasport info. The iSlate (8" x 5" & <1 lb.) is designed to fit between the smart phone (that keeps essential info with you all the time) & the notebook computer that is the center piece of the "Digital Hub", & has subsequentially replaced my "desktop" computer.

 

[BobVB]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: We need the iSlate NOW!

Originally posted by lajocaab
------
Although you can carry a PDA or a PVP in your pocket, few people do so on a regular basis.

What can I say - we obviously live in different worlds. I don't know anyone who doesn't grab their PDA out of their pocket. If they need more then that they carry a laptop. Your proposed iSlate fills no need I personally have and reminds me of the Cube - a product in search of a market.

 

[stimpy13]

palm and MAC OS X

Ok some of you don't use the palm..great..however understand they in some segments of the business world they are MANDATORY...

As a 3rd year medical student I can tell you that every serious doctor is getting one, pt charting systems are supporting them etc .. they are awsome reference sources.

The problems with palms action is not the lack of hot sync as I fully expect isync to fill this gap.

The problem lies in the many applications on the palm that "sync" with a central DB to update a reference. Apple needs to ensure that palm and pocket PC apps that use this fuctionality have the hooks in OS X that they need to function , without a seperate version of the palm or pocket PC app.

Look we all love our mac but this kind of thing KILLS Apples market share. Apple can do what they like on their own turf but they MUST interoperate with 3rd parties SEAMLESSLY, better then windows if they expect to grow.

This is a crushing blow which means Apple will have to work hard to overcome. Futhermore dog plus world will cover the fact that palm will not support the mac but no one will cover the fact that isync can fill a significant portion of this void.

An Apple PDA is not the answer here. Because many if not all app makers will not support their app on that platform even if it is palm or pocket pc compatible.

I love my mac but more Apple needs to realize that they must beat windows when it comes to 3rd party interactivity.


peace
andrew