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tates there should be a lawsuit against Apple to force them to open iTunes for third party hardware: License the necessary protocols to anybody who wants to use them and make sure that iTunes works with


and therein lies the rub. a license is an agreement that I will give you the information you want and permissions to use it.

at this point in time it appears that Palm didn't ask, they just used. possibly through the ex Apple employees now working for them. same as they may have used information about iphone tech in creating the Pre (this is what Cook was talking about when he said Apple would defend their patents if they had reason to).

and if that is the case, then Palm is the nasty party not Apple. Which is not to say that Apple wouldn't take the high road and let them license the protocols to be nice but you can bet they will charge more than they might have before
 
stop to argue about your OPINIONS as if they were facts... it's absurd that 90% of your "arguments" derive from personal experience... one says:"70% use itunes because they own an ipod"... the next says: no you are wrong, i started using itunes because it is a good app"... now I say: "well i started using itunes because it got an ipod....".... wtf those are opinions and experiences, not facts....

in most cases it is always the same bs.

some people have something to say, some have to say something....
 
Because I now own an iPhone. Palm stealing the use of iTunes potentially takes money out of Apple's pockets which means less money to improve the products I own.

how? if anything...it ENCOURAGES the use of buying songs from itunes:rolleyes:

Nothing you've said is based in reality.
what type of statement is this anyways...it doesnt address any of his points:cool:
 
That's just frightening. Do they install keyloggers too? Who would know right - I mean is there even anti-virus software for the Mac?

in the US, companies are allowed to monitor use of company computers, company email accounts and yes are even allowed to do things like watch forums like these for folks saying they work for the company or giving out information that only employees would have. and yes it is a fireable offense if such things have been stated in policy to be against the rules. I used to work for Borders and we had such policies so I'm sure Apple does as well

in fact, I have heard Apple store employees claim they are not given release date info, specs or even confirmation of the existence of some items (case in point, a 2009 new iphone) until the public is. And I believe this to be true. A great way to get info would be to hire on as a retail employee and the head office likely knows this. thus they keep the peeps in the dark to stiffle that idea.
 
I actually kind of like that the Pre uses iTunes so easily. I will admit, if the Pre was on Verizon tomorrow I would be definitely interested. Not to mention the idea of someone looking Apple right in the eye makes me really excited for the Sleeping Giant of Apple* to be awoken.

(*Ok, ok, I know this is kind of a lame reference, but if the Pre is innovative enough to kick the iPhone into the next tier of awesomeness then I'm all for it)
 
I don't think its wrong for Pre to sync to itunes I think what wrong is how they are doing it. Palm should have contacted Apple and done it the right way and not make itunes think its an ipod. I bet apple would have been fine with them syncing to itunes.
 
According to Johansen, the Palm Pre must be specifically presenting itself as an Apple iPod to trick iTunes into syncing data with it. This is why iTunes displays "Syncing iPod" rather than "Syncing Pre" during the demos.

But that's a pretty poor justification of their theory. iTunes would have nothing to say BUT "Syncing iPod" because it doesn't have any strings for other devices. How could it say "Syncing Pre" when it wasn't programmed to even know that the Pre exists?

And anyone thinking that Apple would allow the Pre to sync with iTunes is a walking joke. Apple would never allow anything like that- no matter how hard Palm begged. I think they should open iTunes up a little bit because it would encourage people who don't use iPods to use it.
 
1) You hate that they are consistently rated the highest or among the highest in customer satsifaction?

Yes, I specifically hate that. Otherwise I wouldn't have mentioned that they were consistently rated the highest in customer satisfaction.

Or, alternatively, I was less impressed by the ratings and more impressed by their consistently bad customer service.

For example, it took Apple four years to remove an address from my Apple Store address which I couldn't delete or modify myself and which the Apple Store insisted was the default shipping address, despite the fact that that address is in another country and I don't live there.

You might be surprised to learn that Apple's ratings in surveys had little to no effect on my anger about that.

In general I pay little attention to surveys when I make up my mind about something, but it's interesting to learn that other people think that I would.

2) Please elaborate on the government powers they use to defeat competition. This should be an interesting response. I will get out my tinfoil hat.

We have here an entire thread about Apple "allowing" or "not allowing" something and you think it has to do with tinfoil heads to assume that Apple might actually sue.



3) This is obviously spoken by someone who has never developed software.

Quite in contrary. I just happen to work in a place where testing is regarded as rather more important than it is at Apple's.

It would be flat out impossible to deliver software without testing it. For one thing it would mean that one relies on fanboys to yell at people who find bugs. And where do you find such loyal fanboys?

No. It is merely a bad idea. But it is totally possible.

Note that "checking if it works" is not what I consider "testing" when it comes to software.

Aside from the internal testing that we don't know about if you are a regular at MacRumors then you will constantly see posts about Apple releasing a new build of their OS to developers on a regular basis. You lost all credibility with this post.

Releasing new builds to people outside the company is not "testing" either.

Start iWeb. Type something in a right-to-left language. Type more than one line, include the odd punctuation as if it were real sentences.

Let iWeb create a Web site based on that input.

Look at the result and tell me that you think that Apple have TESTED whether right-to-left languages support, a feature of Cocoa, works in iWeb.

Don't talk about credibility, establish credibility.

(Ever looked at how titles of Arabic or Israeli music appears on the iPhone?)
 
It is becoming more obvious with each post that you have no idea what you are talking about.

This at least I would agree with. .andy seems to be unaware that the itunes library offers a nice plain text xml file from which *any* app can safely determine pretty much everything it needs about your library, and use it quite legally.

3) It is close to corporate espionage in that the highest level Palm employee responsible for the development of the Pre used to work at one of the highest levels within Apple. It is VERY possible that he is using the Apple-specific knowledge he gained while working for Apple that is allowing Palm to sync with iTunes. He was responsible for developing the iPod. Hello? McFly?

Here you're flat out wrong. Reverse engineering for interoperability reasons is legal. Palm can do what they're doing just fine. Their only risk is if Apple can show that code or knowledge held by ex-Apple staff was instrumental to the reverse engineering project. Since this is basically just device emulation at the USB level, that's unlikely to be the case.
 
Sure, I think Apple should do everything they can to keep the Pre from syncing with iTunes.

While we're at it, Microsoft should constantly release Windows updates that break iTunes/iPod computability. After all, Apple is competitor. They have a right, no, a responsibility to protect their bottom line, don't they?

No one here is saying that Apple has a responsibility to support every piece of hardware that anyone plugs into a Mac (or a PC), but I don't think they need to purposely stop other products from working with their software. What if iPhoto only worked with the iPhone camera, or a "Made for iPhoto" labeled camera?

Think of iTunes as an island, where it would take a software bridge to create compatibility with other hardware islands. Sure, Apple isn't required to build a bridge to the Pre island to get them to work together. I wouldn't even say they're required to meet them half way. But does it make sense for them to blow up the end of the bridge from the Pre that connects to iTunes if Palm wants to build one?

You want to talk about Apple losing iPhone sales, but the bulk of their income is still from Mac sales. I would guess that one of the biggest reasons not to buy a Mac, as big as or bigger than cost, is the widespread impression that if you buy a Mac nothing will work with it. Consumers don't want a walled off ecosystem, and if switching to a Mac means replacing all the electronics they own, or missing out on whatever new products come out, they won't do it.

Sure, there's always DoubleTwist, and probably other programs that make it possible. But it's in Apples best interest to to allow use of iTunes with these programs. Firstly, they'll be making sales of now non-DRM'd music and videos to a larger customer base, and secondly it will drive sales to the Mac.

And it'll be good for the consumer, if anyone here cares about that.
 
I don't think its wrong for Pre to sync to itunes I think what wrong is how they are doing it. Palm should have contacted Apple and done it the right way and not make itunes think its an ipod. I bet apple would have been fine with them syncing to itunes.

Who ever said there was a protocol for these sorts of things?
 
hell apple could use some lessons from palms sync software. you buy a app like documents to go you install it on you computer. it creates the syncing link and you can drag and drop files and have them convert and sync onto your palm. every app that syncs with a palm does it through hotsync. want to sync splashid with the iphone? you need a wireless router you have to run the app then open it up on the iphone and go to settings and sync it. what a pain in the rear.
you can only sync wirelessy with most apps for the iphone or the touch.
 
I bet apple would have been fine with them syncing to itunes.

Couldn't help but laugh a little when I read this.

As far as I can remember, Apple only ever allowed one family of devices to connect to iTunes outside the Apple brand. It was the Moto ROKR, and the only real reason Apple made the deal with Motorola was so that an absolutely awful mp3-player/phone would be out on the market as a stark contrast to the the elegance and simplicity of the forthcoming iPhone.

Apple probably won't bother with a lawsuit. Some forthcoming release of iTunes will break functionality with the Pre. It will be interesting to see if Apple and Palm play a cat-and-mouse game where every iTunes patch is followed by a firmware patch for the Pre.
 
how? if anything...it ENCOURAGES the use of buying songs from itunes:rolleyes:

True, but Apple is generally seen as making its profits from hardware - i.e. iPods and iPhones - not from content. In other words, the iTunes store exists to drive hardware sales, which will decrease if other devices can use said content.

I don't think its wrong for Pre to sync to itunes I think what wrong is how they are doing it. Palm should have contacted Apple and done it the right way and not make itunes think its an ipod. I bet apple would have been fine with them syncing to itunes.

I strongly doubt that they would.
 
Who cares? Really. Good for Palm. I think Itunes should work with any music player and I also think others should support iPods, iPhones, etc.

I personally HAD to use Itunes because of my iPhone. I would have much rather used Rhapsody's music library. Or better yet, I so wish the iPhone had regular drop and drag and not have to use a program to sync.

So they reverse engineered iPods USB protocols, anyone here using a DSLR camera with a third party lens? Did you know that any lens made by Sigma, Tamron, Vivitar, etc is using reverse engineering for Canon/Nikon/Sony (Minolta)/Pentax, etc camera bodies? They are not licensed.
 
hell apple could use some lessons from palms sync software. you buy a app like documents to go you install it on you computer. it creates the syncing link and you can drag and drop files and have them convert and sync onto your palm. every app that syncs with a palm does it through hotsync. want to sync splashid with the iphone? you need a wireless router you have to run the app then open it up on the iphone and go to settings and sync it. what a pain in the rear.
you can only sync wirelessy with most apps for the iphone or the touch.

I agree, it is a pain, but FYI there is a workaround if you don't have a wireless router available. Every Mac with an Airport card should be able to create it's own "network" that you can log into with your iPhone or iPod Touch. Just click on the Airport icon on your menubar, and clock on where it says something like "create network".

Of course, you should be able to do this simply by plugging the iPhone in, instead of having to find IP #'s and whatnot, but hey, "Just Works" could mean a lot of different things, huh?
 
Personally, I see nothing wrong with this except for the fact that it's emulating an iPod.

iTunes can work with other media players (link), so why shouldn't it work with the Pre? Palm made it compatible with iTunes and Apple should allow it to work.

This will help iTunes store sales, but it might hurt iPhone sales.
 
Apple makes practically nothing with iTunes. The revenue mostly goes to the content/media providers. iTunes purpose is to generate Apple hardware sales which drives Apples business and sustain growth for the future.

So you guys think its alright to violate Apples IP and hard work and deprive Apple their major revenue generating ecosystem? You actually believe that this hack is justifiable in driving down Apples business and thus hurting them in the end? Thats just plain wrong anyway you cut it.

The last thing I want is Apple to start losing revenue for hardware sales. Less profit, less R&D and everyone loses.
 
So um I don't know if this has been published or not, but iTunes has a ton of devices that already support iTunes sync out of the box.

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2172

This whole argument especially on page one is pretty crazy.


iPod Apple FireWire / USB
Nomad II Creative Labs USB
Nomad II MG Creative Labs USB
Nomad II c Creative Labs USB
Nomad Jukebox Creative Labs USB
Nomad Jukebox 20GB Creative Labs USB
Nomad Jukebox C Creative Labs USB
Novad MuVo Creative Labs USB
Rio One SONICBlue/S3 USB
Rio 500 SONICBlue/S3 USB
Rio 600 SONICBlue/S3 USB
Rio 800 SONICBlue/S3 USB
Rio 900 SONICBlue/S3 USB
Rio S10 SONICBlue/S3 USB
Rio S11 SONICBlue/S3 USB
Rio S30S SONICBlue/S3 USB
Rio S35S SONICBlue/S3 USB
Rio S50 SONICBlue/S3 USB
Rio Chiba SONICBlue/S3 USB
Rio Fuse SONICBlue/S3 USB
Rio Cali SONICBlue/S3 USB
psa]play 60 Nike USB
psa]play 120 Nike USB
SoundSpace 2 Nakamichi USB
CD MP3 Players Manufacturer
RioVolt SP250 SONICBlue/S3
RioVolt SP100 SONICBlue/S3
RioVolt SP90 SONICBlue/S3

Edit: Spoke too soon. Thanks Slappy! The Palm has no reason no to be able to sync to iTunes.
 
This is BS and I'm sick of people claiming to know what an Apple fan would or wouldn't do. This reminds me of the old saying that when you're pointing one finger at me, three are pointing back at you.

As a former Palm device owner (multiple devices) I think that Palm customers would much rather have Palm get off of their lazy ass and make their own software that will sync the Pre with their computer. I know that is how I felt when I owned the Treo (two actually) and other Palm devices over the years. Palm's software was either incompatible or such utter and total crap that I had to purchase The Missing Sync in order to sync my device. I would much rather have had the device manufacturer (who knows the hardware and the hardware's OS best) to write my sync software.

Do you really think that syncing the Pre with iTunes (which could potentially break even if Apple doesn't do it intentionally) is the preferred solution? Think about it. Apple is constantly working on new versions of iTunes which Palm does not have access to. How long do you think you will have to wait after each of these updates for Palm to fix the Pre software in order for you to get your sync ability back? Do you really want to have to deal with that?

You guys need to think about what you're saying because it is a bunch of BS at this point.

There are people who genuinely appreciate the Apple experience, and then there are those who are so in love Apple that they are completely irrational in their response to anything not-apple. This is not unique to Apple, either— I see the same thing come from Windows users that loathe Apple.

Let’s take your “Palm get off of their lazy ass and make their own software that will sync the Pre with their computer” line. You could take this so far as to say they shouldn’t sync via Exchange Active Sync, gmail, facebook, google contacts, etc. They should just create their own email, contact, calendaring software for the Pre to sync with, right? (like “Palm Desktop”). That’s a JOKE and YOU KNOW IT. Very few if any would consider something like Palm Desktop as a viable solution to keeping organized.

If you look at music the same way, sure, Palm needs to go through the appropriate channels to legally leverage existing software as they do with exchange and those other technologies, but I think that’s TONS better than making what will turn out to be another piece of software that people would rather not use when they already manage their music via iTunes.

Palm probably doesn’t see a need to reinvent the wheel. The only music management software I would even consider using with a Pre would be something that mirrors my iTunes content and playlists (not unlike programs I have that allow me to access the music on my iPod to copy it / move it to another machine), and then at that point it’s just an extra step. I don’t want a separate jukebox program, and I don’t think Palm’s goal is to create their own music ecosystem. No, they’ve just got a new platform that, like every other phone out there, plays music, and iTunes is one of easiest ways to make using the device for music accessible. It really seems ideal for the customer more than anything.

There is no question in my mind whether iTunes is a good idea for the Pre. The only question being raised by the original article is whether something underhanded or illegal has been done, and whether Apple will break compatibility. I understand Apple uses their software to sell their hardware, and that’s their business model, that’s their paradigm, and that’s why Apple is one of the only companies that might even take issue with the idea of another piece of hardware leveraging their software. Frankly I’m starting to get tired of how proprietary Apple is, though. I love their software, but don’t love being tied to their hardware.

I’m starting to wish Google had created a music management app years ago :D
 
I really don't see why Apple would get upset about this. More devices syncing to iTunes = more iTunes users = more money in Apple's pockets.

Because Apple Store is a tool for selling hardware, not the other way around.
Apple Store is a feature, iPhone/iPod are the products.
 
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