Palm Reports Apple to USB Compliance Organization Over iTunes Syncing Issues

[Hugh]

Newton

The ones that prevent you from using google for yourself and require you to be handfed information.

Patents

More Patents

I think you don't know about the Newton. The Newton came out before Palm came out with their PDA. The Newton was touch screen with a stylus (same as Palm). But you could write on the pad it's self and it would print out on the screen what you wrote (For the most part, you had to train it to your writing style).

When Palms PDA came out the had something similar, however you had a square to write in and it was called 'short hand'. Why Palm beat Apple in the PDA wars is I think of it's price and it was smaller (I thought I would mention that before you did.).

Now, fast forehead several years and you get the iTouch/iPhone. All Apple did was improved the Newton (That's how I look at it) to be much better then what is was. Now I would agree that Apple took out the handwriting, but the touch part is still there (Side Note: Ink Well in Mac OS X is based on the Newton.)

Now why did I even make this history lesson... Is because I wonder who copied who?

Hugh

 

[jadam]

I think you don't know about the Newton.

I had a Newton. I had a Palm III when it was new. I had a 200mhz ARM based iPaq windows CE device back in 2000 that could do almost anything a current iPhone can. I toyed around with Linux on the iPaqs at that time.
I had another Palm after that, and then a linux based device. I then had a Windows based smartphone for a while.
I got an iPhone the week it was released.
I now have a Palm Pre.

I think I know a bit about portable handheld computing devices ;-)

 

[Treq]

I had a Newton. I had a Palm III when it was new. I had a 200mhz ARM based iPaq windows CE device back in 2000 that could do almost anything a current iPhone can. I toyed around with Linux on the iPaqs at that time.
I had another Palm after that, and then a linux based device. I then had a Windows based smartphone for a while.
I got an iPhone the week it was released.
I now have a Palm Pre.

I think I know a bit about portable handheld computing devices ;-)

Then you know that palm can write it's own sync software for their device. That way they're not relying on Apple to support the features their device is advertised to have.

 

[Goona]

No it's not.

And Apple is violating a bunch of Palm Patents too with the iPhone. Don't forget Palm has been in this business since 1992, they have a LARGE patent portfolio.

So why haven't Palm sued, or I guess they're not suing for the good of humanity, lol.

 

[*LTD*]

No it's not.

And Apple is violating a bunch of Palm Patents too with the iPhone. Don't forget Palm has been in this business since 1992, they have a LARGE patent portfolio.

All that patent violation nonsense and those accusations that were flying around was just posturing, stirred up mostly by the tech media trying to figure out who owns what and then concocting some sort of patent conflict (or impending conflict) between Apple and Palm.

Until there's court action involved it's all BS.

 

[Neotyguy40]

Palm is a big company of babies... If they want to do something, they should make their own program that can get the music files downloaded...

This is a battle that only Apple will win... There was another company that tried to fight a battle similar to this a few years ago... I bet most of you remember what it was. They took the battle publicly, and they lost...

I suggest to apple they they make it so that it flushes out the HD of any device pretending to be an iPod... Literally BREAK the Palm Pre... They just need to make a new license agreement for iTunes stating that any non-iPod device will be broken. It is a fair enough warning that they can use in court if they get sued for it.

 

[ThisIsNotMe]

That's essentially what they are saying. For example if i plug in my HP printer, iTunes should recognize it. These guys at Palm sound as clueless as Psystar, at least we can forgive them for being a two bit shop but a company like Palm.

Exactly.

If Apple somehow locked out the Pre from using USB then there would be a problem. The difference is low level (OS) software access and high level (iTunes) software access.

 

[charlituna]

What they're saying is that the Pre WORKS with an UNMODIFIED copy of iTunes, so Apple shouldn't be blocking access.

but did they. Palm is making out that Apple went in and put in some lines of code referencing Palm's vendor ID such that if itunes saw that code, it wouldn't work. which is bad. it is against the rules. just like spoofing another vendor (what Palm did) is against the rules

but what if Apple, to ensure that they didn't lose use with any of the actual ipod/iphone models, actually put in code validating their vendor id as the one to be recognized. subtle diff sure but one that they can legitly do.

 

[chrono1081]

That doesnt make any sense at all. What is Apple losing if a Pre syncs with iTunes? Apple isnt losing moeny, they arent losing potential sales (unless you count people who buy ipods because its the only thing that syncs directly with iTunes, but once again, thats tying and apple has a massive market share in the portable music market). So tell me, if i plug a pre into iTunes, what has apple lost?

Im amazed that some people will bow down and praise apple no matter what, even if the end result is worse for the customer. I swear, some fanboys here care more about apple than their own families...

Apple is doing no wrong here which is why I am on their side.

Is Apple losing sales because of this? Yes potentially.

About 4 years ago I was in electronics retail sales. Many customers bought iPods because they could buy music from iTunes and download it straight to the iPod. They liked iTunes cause it was easy to use and you could buy giftcards in the stores for it. iTunes was actually the reason I bought and iPod because it for me was much nicer to use then windows media player.

Now, lots of people would love a phone that would sync to their iTunes and be a real mp3 player and phone all in one. If any phone can sync to iTunes thats potential sales lost.

Now comes the quality control factor. What if palm pre does sync to iTunes and there is a bug in palm pre software that causes your songs to go corrupt. Right there people will blame iTunes and some will stop using it especially if it keeps happening.

Also what about video watching? What if the codecs to watch the videos from iTunes are bad? People will blame iTunes and want refunds.

Not to mention palm is stealing by using usb device IDs that apple paid lots of money for.

Seriously the palm fanboys on this thread make me wonder if they care about palm more then their own families

 

[existent]

Palm is being a sore loser here. They try to fake their way into Itunes and then when it is blocked they cry about it.

While apple does not make much money from Itunes directly, Itunes help drive the sales of the other products.. ipods.. iphones...

if every smartphone had access to itunes, apple wouldn't have been selling so many iphones at first place. It's called marketing, and Steve Jobs have done a great job in the last 10 years or so.


And as some others said, Apple is only blocking access to their software and not to the USB port, so again, there is nothing wrong with that.

Itunes is a software used with Ipods and Iphones, and not with other 3rd party products.. end of story.

 

[stellarceltic]

Seriously the palm fanboys on this thread make me wonder if they care about palm more then their own families

What makes them "palm fanboys"? Just because they disagree with the overwhelmingly fanboyish apple fans? Give me a break.

"Apple will win this. Palm doesn't know who they're messing with!"

Good stuff.

 

[*LTD*]

It's pretty simple, really.

Apple makes iTunes. They own it. It's their software. THEY get to choose what devices it's compatible with, and they are perfectly within their rights to block any and all non-Apple devices.

Palm has nothing to do with Apple. Why on God's green earth do they think they have any rights whatsoever to sync to software that is:

1) not made by them
2) not licensed by them
3) incompatible with their device without the use of hacks and/or unauthorized means of accessing it.

Unbelievable!

It seems Palm wants this to go fully legal. But on what? Antitrust? There is no antitrust issue here. In any case, it's very poor form by Palm. They are, in effect, STEALING an Apple feature/service to use with their own unauthorized device. I'd love to see this go legal because it would be incredibly fun to watch them go down in flames. And Palm can't afford any crap like that at this point.

 

[Hugh]

Who was first

I had a Newton. I had a Palm III when it was new. I had a 200mhz ARM based iPaq windows CE device back in 2000 that could do almost anything a current iPhone can. I toyed around with Linux on the iPaqs at that time.
I had another Palm after that, and then a linux based device. I then had a Windows based smartphone for a while.
I got an iPhone the week it was released.
I now have a Palm Pre.

I think I know a bit about portable handheld computing devices ;-)

You didn't answer the question. Who was first to the PDA market. Did Apple copy Palm, or did Palm copy Apple? Hmmm.

Hugh

 

[BaldiMac]

You didn't answer the question. Who was first to the PDA market. Did Apple copy Palm, or did Palm copy Apple? Hmmm.

Hugh

Whether or not Apple was first to the PDA market has nothing to do with whether Palm was able to patent specific PDA-related technologies.

 

[Treq]

Whether or not Apple was first to the PDA market has nothing to do with whether Palm was able to patent specific PDA-related technologies.

And THAT has nothing to do with Palm wrongly using iTunes as it's sync platform.

 

[kkelley0171]

Palm - USB stuff

Palm is really taking a chance here, this could backfire on them. Palm is the one improperly using USB not Apple.

I agree. Friend of mine thinks its so funny that "Palm fixed the iTunes syncing." The guy who developed the Palm used to work for Apple. So yes I agree with those who have said - ok you call it not right for limiting yet you're doing exactly what you're saying is wrong. What hypocrites.

 

[helmsc]

You didn't answer the question. Who was first to the PDA market. Did Apple copy Palm, or did Palm copy Apple? Hmmm.

Hugh

Not trying to start a war, but if I remember the Newton came out in 1993 and the Palm 1000 (first Palm...made by "Palm Computing" a division of US Robotics) came out in either 1995 or 1996.

 

[kkelley0171]

Apple copying Palm???

Whether or not Apple was first to the PDA market has nothing to do with whether Palm was able to patent specific PDA-related technologies.

Apple didn't copy anyone. They basically put a miniature computer in your hands. I tried using a Palm Treo before - what a pain in the a** and Palm is just pissed because they got their a**es handed to them by Apple. The iPhone has blown Palm out of the water. Especially in the real estate market. I know agents who were operating in the stone age and then moved to an iPhone and started utilizing iTunes - they all became functioning self sufficient marketers with instant access and being able to upload many items instantly as soon as the client decided to use an agent. It also helped get them business too. The only thing real estate agents were doing on the Palm Treo or the Zire was they HAD to buy it (in Florida) so they could get into their lock boxes. In all the hundreds of agents I trained, I NEVER heard any of them say "my palm zire or treo" got me this listing. But I have had agents personally pull me aside and thank me for training them on the iPhone because they were getting listings.

 

[DMann]

Apple didn't copy anyone. They basically put a miniature computer in your hands. I tried using a Palm Treo before - what a pain in the a** and Palm is just pissed because they got their a**es handed to them by Apple. The iPhone has blown Palm out of the water. Especially in the real estate market. I know agents who were operating in the stone age and then moved to an iPhone and started utilizing iTunes - they all became functioning self sufficient marketers with instant access and being able to upload many items instantly as soon as the client decided to use an agent. It also helped get them business too. The only thing real estate agents were doing on the Palm Treo or the Zire was they HAD to buy it (in Florida) so they could get into their lock boxes. In all the hundreds of agents I trained, I NEVER heard any of them say "my palm zire or treo" got me this listing. But I have had agents personally pull me aside and thank me for training them on the iPhone because they were getting listings.

This is also true for "us" non-real estate agents as well - The Zillow app is one of many tremendous resources for real estate buying, selling, and marketing.

 

[chrono1081]

What makes them "palm fanboys"? Just because they disagree with the overwhelmingly fanboyish apple fans? Give me a break.

"Apple will win this. Palm doesn't know who they're messing with!"

Good stuff.

No because Palm is doing something wrong yet people are trying to defend them.

You pay for your wifi just like apple paid for their usb IDs. Wouldn't you get mad if people were leeching off of your wifi?

 

[DMann]

No because Palm is doing something wrong yet people are trying to defend them.

You pay for your wifi just like apple paid for their usb IDs. Wouldn't you get mad if people were leeching off of your wifi?

Yes, and Palm seems to be vying to leach more than free admission via hacked USB IDs. Since Palm is the underdog here, people are gonna' be compelled to root for them, as the Pre is literally their last hope for survival. Now, if only they could hack Web-OS to emulate OS X and run apps from the app store...

 

[stone315]

Apple makes iTunes. They own it. It's their software. THEY get to choose what devices it's compatible with, and they are perfectly within their rights to block any and all non-Apple devices.

Palm has nothing to do with Apple. Why on God's green earth do they think they have any rights whatsoever to sync to software that is:

1) not made by them
2) not licensed by them
3) incompatible with their device without the use of hacks and/or unauthorized means of accessing it.

No, they are not perfectly within their rights. That degree of control over a market is known as a monopoly, the existence of which is prohibited under current U.S. legislation. Palm believes they have the right to interact with iTunes because their users have the right to interact with iTunes. They recognize the fact that iTunes is the predominant application for dealing with music and other media, and rather than trying to force their customers to deal with the learning curve of a switch to an application that offers less features, they are trying to create a good user experience.

Most (if not all) software that you use is:
1) Not written by you
2) Not licensed by you (unless you're using an open source application, in which case licensing does not apply)
3) Compatible with your device because the designer didn't purposefully block your device just because it wasn't created by the designer.

Apple offers the iTunes software free of charge for all users without restrictions based on what computer they use. They should allow the same syncing abilities regardless of which mp3 player the consumer is using.

Wouldn't you get mad if people were leeching off of your wifi?

Wouldn't you get mad if Firefox wouldn't let you view the websites of Microsoft, Apple, and Google because they offer a competing product?

 

[chrono1081]

No, they are not perfectly within their rights. That degree of control over a market is known as a monopoly, the existence of which is prohibited under current U.S. legislation. Palm believes they have the right to interact with iTunes because their users have the right to interact with iTunes. They recognize the fact that iTunes is the predominant application for dealing with music and other media, and rather than trying to force their customers to deal with the learning curve of a switch to an application that offers less features, they are trying to create a good user experience.

Most (if not all) software that you use is:
1) Not written by you
2) Not licensed by you (unless you're using an open source application, in which case licensing does not apply)
3) Compatible with your device because the designer didn't purposefully block your device just because it wasn't created by the designer.

Apple offers the iTunes software free of charge for all users without restrictions based on what computer they use. They should allow the same syncing abilities regardless of which mp3 player the consumer is using.




Wouldn't you get mad if Firefox wouldn't let you view the websites of Microsoft, Apple, and Google because they offer a competing product?

Please try and come up with a better argument. iTunes is not a monopoly in any way shape or form. Saying iTunes is a monopoly is like saying XBox live is a monopoly because you can buy stuff off of it and it only runs on XBox.

As far as firefox goes firefox doesn't pay anything to Microsoft. Writing software for windows is free. Purchasing device ID's for usb products is not free.

Firefox could easily block "competing websites" but no one would use firefox.

If iTunes blocking a palm bothers you so much dont use iTunes.

 

[LethalWolfe]

No, they are not perfectly within their rights. That degree of control over a market is known as a monopoly, the existence of which is prohibited under current U.S. legislation.

For the love of god a monopoly in and of itself is *not*, I repeat, *not* illegal in the US and being a market leader does not equate to being a monopoly.


Lethal

 

[DMann]

Wouldn't you get mad if Firefox wouldn't let you view the websites of Microsoft, Apple, and Google because they offer a competing product?

Wouldn't mind at all - I would simply opt not to use Firefox - there are other browsers available. Besides, nothing is preventing Palm from building their own iTunes solution. Palm has no entitlement to Apple's solution, especially now, since they insisted on interfacing iTunes by intentional subterfuge, emulating an iPhone/iPod Touch without an agreement, in addition to effectively infringing upon Apple's multi-touch patented designs and functionality. Dirty competitors need not be considered - RIM certainly seems to have worked out an iTunes agreement.