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Palm Reports Apple to USB Compliance Organization Over iTunes Syncing Issues

Eddyisgreat said:
Such an elegant explanation.

And since I haven't posted it in a while:
palm_pre-usb_info.png


Caption: Palm is wrong.

Courtesy DVD Jon
Click to expand...
Thats exactly what I was talking about! Palm is clearly just using a sad workaround, "lets tell itunes its an ipod!".

I'm not even sure of the legality of it, if it is somehow legal, I highly doubt the USB board that Palm reported Apple to will look kindly on that kind of lying. They are given vendor identifications for a reason I'd assume.
 
jadam said:
Bull on you, iTunes used to work just fine with any mp3 player from WITHIN iTunes.
Click to expand...

I don't understand the point of your argument, but regardless, this statement is not true. iTunes only worked with a small list of third party MP3 players.
 
jadam said:
Bull on you, iTunes used to work just fine with any mp3 player from WITHIN iTunes.

In fact iTunes was created as an analog of WMP for macs before the iPods were even thought of let alone sold.
Click to expand...

Any MP3 Player made about 6 years ago - all of the supported mp3 players are no longer being manufactured or no longer on the market. And the compatibility list was not what one would call "any" there were lots of players what would not work. Once the iPod came out, that kind of support was only left in for legacy purposes - the iPod took iTunes over once they overhauled syncing.

Again, that was about 6 years ago - a lot has changed since then.
 
BaldiMac said:
I don't understand the point of your argument, but regardless, this statement is not true. iTunes only worked with a small list of third party MP3 players.
Click to expand...

The point is pretty clear I think? iTunes wasn't created for syncing solely with iPods/iPhones.
 
jadam said:
The point is pretty clear I think? iTunes wasn't created for syncing solely with iPods/iPhones.
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However those players predated the iPod - iTunes is a very different beast than it was back then. Once the sync services was overhauled and the syncing of iTunes and the iPod changed, the other players were kinda left in the dust. I think we can agree that iTunes in its current implementation, is built with the iPods/iPhones/Apple TV in mind and not other players.

And must we point out that those players had a pre-existing agreement with Apple? Palm has no such agreement.
 
pdjudd said:
And must we point out that those players had a pre-existing agreement with Apple? Palm has no such agreement.
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What agreement? Proof?

Just an FYI I didn't have any of the "supported" players but it worked 100% fine with iTunes back in the day.

In fact, I believe on Apple's own website this was a touted "feature" of iTunes. :rolleyes:
 
jadam said:
It might have something to do with the OP I quoted stating it is solely for iPods/iPhones :confused::rolleyes:
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Okay... :confused: I've read the thread. I understand the two sides of the argument. I don't understand what the point of the argument is.

Apple used to support certain third party digital music players with built in iTunes syncing. Now it doesn't. So?
 
BaldiMac said:
Okay... :confused: I've read the thread. I understand the two sides of the argument. I don't understand what the point of the argument is.

Apple used to support certain third party digital music players with built in iTunes syncing. Now it doesn't. So?
Click to expand...

The point is I was trying to disprove a comment made on this forum by someone who has no clue about why/when iTunes was created.

The point is iTunes supported a multitude of digital media players originally.

The point of that being that Apple specifically went out of their way to break compatibility with the Pre even though it took no effort on Apples part to enable it.

My iMac comes with iTunes for media playing/digital management, but I can't use my mp3 player(Pre) with it because why exactly? Because Apple wants to sell me another iPod/iPhone? No thanks. Explain to me why they have to go out of their way to break compatibility?
 
jadam said:
What agreement? Proof?
Click to expand...

The fact that Apple touted it as a feature back in the day meant that there had to be an agreement. I remember the company websites even advertising it as well. Reciprocal advertising is a pretty good sign. If there was no agreement, Apple couldn't tout it or they would have gotten an C&D, and if APple didn't want support, they would have been C&D'd to remove any reference to Apple's software. Apple's tech documents indicates that it was a supported feature. pretty clear to me that Apple endorsed it. At least back then.

If you want specific terms of said agreement, those almost never get disclosed and are typically bound by NDA's.

As for Palm, their device has to imitate an Apple product=No agreement with Apple.
 
No matter who is wrong or right, bottom line is that Apple has a lot more lawyers and a lot more money to spend on legal wars than Palm does. Furthermore, any negative effects of this are going to affect Palm much more severely than Apple. Therefore, this will not end well for Palm. It's a foolish business decision to go down this path for Palm because they cannot win, but their users will suffer, and their brand will be tarnished, in the meantime.
 
jadam said:
What agreement? Proof?

Just an FYI I didn't have any of the "supported" players but it worked 100% fine with iTunes back in the day.

In fact, I believe on Apple's own website this was a touted "feature" of iTunes. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
Got a source or a link?
 
jadam said:
The point is I was trying to disprove a comment made on this forum by someone who has no clue about why/when iTunes was created.
Click to expand...

Okay.

The point is iTunes supported a multitude of digital media players originally.
Click to expand...

Okay.

The point of that being that Apple specifically went out of their way to break compatibility with the Pre even though it took no effort on Apples part to enable it.
Click to expand...

How do you go from "Apple used to support other MP3 players six years ago" to "Apple has no right to disallow unauthorized access to their software"?

My iMac comes with iTunes for media playing/digital management, but I can't use my mp3 player(Pre) with it because why exactly?
Click to expand...

Two reasons:

1) You can.
http://www.markspace.com/products/pre/mac/palm-pre-sync-overview.html

2) Palm didn't build its own iTunes sync in accordance with the Sync Services APIs that were provided by Apple for that purpose.

Because Apple wants to sell me another iPod/iPhone? No thanks. Explain to me why they have to go out of their way to break compatibility?
Click to expand...

Because Palm ignored the public APIs available to them and used private and undocumented APIs by masquerading as an iPod.
 
jadam said:
My iMac comes with iTunes for media playing/digital management, but I can't use my mp3 player(Pre) with it because why exactly? Because Apple wants to sell me another iPod/iPhone? No thanks. Explain to me why they have to go out of their way to break compatibility?
Click to expand...

Because Apple wants companies to use SyncServices, not iTunes and because iTunes is Apple's product. End of story, The End. Just because something was true years ago, doesn't mean things can't change. Apple redesigned iTunes and in that process decided to keep the iTunes interface reserved for their own products and instead allowed other companies to use the Sync Services framework to design programs that best fit their products instead of Apple having to bow down to the needs (often conflicting) of other companies.

It was a decision that Apple made years ago and it was their choice. Sorry, but you can't always get what you want.
 
If anything, I'd expect Palm to get in trouble with the USB Compliance Organization for using another vendor's ID and pulling what they have.

If I had been asked to code this exploit by palm, id have turned them down immediately, this isn't how you are supposed to have your touted features work, a mere workaround is all this is. Sloppy, sloppy work by palm

Edit: seeing as apple allows devs to use SyncServices, I don't see what the hell palm was trying to do other than gain access to itunes.
 
pdjudd said:
Not to mention that Palm's product code must use Apple's Trademarks. That can't be good.
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No it's not.

And Apple is violating a bunch of Palm Patents too with the iPhone. Don't forget Palm has been in this business since 1992, they have a LARGE patent portfolio.
 
jadam said:
No it's not.

And Apple is violating a bunch of Palm Patents too with the iPhone. Don't forget Palm has been in this business since 1992, they have a LARGE patent portfolio.
Click to expand...

What the hell are you talking about now? Do you really think these guys are going to make a syncing conflict into a full out patent war? Do you really think Apple, the company everyone loves to sue, hasn't covered their asses legally?
 
jadam said:
The point is I was trying to disprove a comment made on this forum by someone who has no clue about why/when iTunes was created.

The point is iTunes supported a multitude of digital media players originally.

The point of that being that Apple specifically went out of their way to break compatibility with the Pre even though it took no effort on Apples part to enable it.

My iMac comes with iTunes for media playing/digital management, but I can't use my mp3 player(Pre) with it because why exactly? Because Apple wants to sell me another iPod/iPhone? No thanks. Explain to me why they have to go out of their way to break compatibility?
Click to expand...

Let's get things straight here. The Pre was never compatible with iTunes. The iPod is. The iPhone is. AppleTV is. The Pre isn't. Palm made iTunes think the Pre was an iPod to make it sync. This is not compatibility. This is a cheat. Apple is right to keep devices that incorrectly report their ID from syncing with their software.
 
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