Palm's webOS 1.2 Released, Does Not Re-Enable iTunes Media Syncing

[Rodimus Prime]

How does that legitimize hacking somebody else's product?

I did not say it did. Just was pointing out a counter to the standard BS argument that they can make there own app with a store.

This was discussed ad nauseam in the other thread. iTunes does not use the XML file. It merely exports library data to it so that other applications may use it. Apple documents usage of that file for developers.

Either way what is to stop apple from continue to do export to the XML file. I would not true them not to end if they felt threaten.

So a free syncing app is now an entire market? Because we're not talking about the iTunes Store here; the only thing that's being blocked is direct syncing.

Companies create competitive advantages for themselves. These are not illegal and it doesn't make them "chicken." It's called competition.

So basically your argument is to have the users install more software on the computer to sync with the library. Which just means software that only has one use.

The point is it just means more useless software on the computer to sync up with the music library.

and yes apple is a chicken. They are to affriad that there products can not stand up head to head so they levarage other advatages and breaks other companies products that threaten them. Case and point about the XML file. I would not be surpised in the least of some other music player was threating unseating the iPod that was using that file to sync that apple would shut it down. Apple is a chicken when it comes to fighting.

 

[Stratus Fear]

I did not say it did. Just was pointing out a counter to the standard BS argument that they can make there own app with a store.


Either way what is to stop apple from continue to do export to the XML file. I would not true them not to end if they felt threaten.



So basically your argument is to have the users install more software on the computer to sync with the library. Which just means software that only has one use.

The point is it just means more useless software on the computer to sync up with the music library.

and yes apple is a chicken. They are to affriad that there products can not stand up head to head so they levarage other advatages and breaks other companies products that threaten them. Case and point about the XML file. I would not be surpised in the least of some other music player was threating unseating the iPod that was using that file to sync that apple would shut it down. Apple is a chicken when it comes to fighting.

So basically your arguments amount to strawmen and "well, what if Apple did this, I bet they would." I'm sorry, but that doesn't work. Are they stopping other companies from using the XML file now? No.

 

[dvince2]

I really don't understand this. Its not as if Apple is locking Palm off the Apple platform. Tons of Apple competetors, including RIM, have come up with perfectly legal (in lack of a better word) ways to sync with iTunes.
Personally, I akin this to complaining that my iPod can't sync with Media Player, or that I can't scan an image to my computer with my brother printer using HP drivers.

iTunes isn't an industry standard. Its a piece of software, written by Apple and is [usually] required to use their hardware. In the sense that Palm is using it, its simply a pretty front end to what is normally a copy and paste.

 

[bobertoq]

I believe the person believed that iTune's store was very profitable, which it is not. Most iTunes users do not buy from the iTune's store anyways.

Apple would stand to benefit more if they limited the Pre's ability to sync with a robust and popular app. By preventing the Pre from syncing they have shown that:

1. Palm is a company that makes risky decisions that do not pay off well.
2. Reminding Pre users that the iPhone is backed by iTunes.
3. Apple will defend it's IP. Retaining value/exclusivity in it's products.

But how do us, the consumers, benefit from Apple's anti-competitive moves? I honestly don't see how Apple's customers are negatively affected by allowing 3rd party hardware to sync with iTunes. It's not like the iTunes Store would die because of it, either. So why the hell not let the Palm Pre sync with iTunes?

 

[cmwade77]

I want to be able to sync all of my content with any device that I want (as long as it is mine and not a friends), this includes DRM protected music and video. Really, is that too much to ask? If I paid for the content, why should be able to do what I want with it, this also includes burning the movies to video DVDs.

I don't care what program I have to use to do this with.

 

[sonictonic]

(That kid on the Simpsons voice) - "HA! HA!"

Learn your lesson here Palm? You bastards got what you deserve, and totally brought it on yourself. Make your own damn software.

 

[udscricin]

That's great! That's quite a very informative post. Thanks for your share.

 

[windywoo]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 3_1 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/528.18 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0 Mobile/7C144 Safari/528.16)



Well said.

In no way is this move short sighted or stupid. How in the hell is Apple losing money or sleep over not having Palm, or any other company for that fact, be able to sync with iTunes? Please explain.

By showing how little they care for their customers and how much they would like you to buy another Apple device rather than make your own decision. iTunes is the default media library on OSX, if another company's product cannot synch from within iTunes it makes iTunes look either lacking in functionality or overly restrictive.

Synching with an XML file for other products is just an after thought and shows Apple really care less about their customers experience and more about making more money.

 

[pdjudd]

By showing how little they care for their customers and how much they would like you to buy another Apple device rather than make your own decision. iTunes is the default media library on OSX, if another company's product cannot synch from within iTunes it makes iTunes look either lacking in functionality or overly restrictive.

Well, it shows that Apple as a company wants people to buy their products over others. Thats just life and its perfectly natural for one company to want to promote their products over another. THink about it. iTUnes is lacking because there are parts of it that no player will ever be able to support. Apple is not going to expose that extra layer of confusion and is not going to burden that layer of support. Microsoft tried to promote that and it failed. Supporting every device under the sun is a flawed method because devices work differently. Not to mention the added conflict of interest in supporting your competition. Again, the plays for sure model only made sense for Microsoft until they went with the Zune - a platform that supports no other player outside of MS branded ones. Following that, Plays for sure died.

The market tried for a "one player to rule them all model” so far that model never went anywhere.

Synching with an XML file for other products is just an after thought and shows Apple really care less about their customers experience and more about making more money.

The fact that Apple provides that file and an entire documented sync process should tell the world “this is how to get the data you need”. If you think any company doesn’t care about money first and foremost, your deluded. That is the first goal and legal obligation of any company.

 

[convergent]

But how do us, the consumers, benefit from Apple's anti-competitive moves? I honestly don't see how Apple's customers are negatively affected by allowing 3rd party hardware to sync with iTunes. It's not like the iTunes Store would die because of it, either. So why the hell not let the Palm Pre sync with iTunes?

How does a consumer benefit from Ford wheels not fitting on their Chevy? How does a consumer benefit from Internet Explorer not running on Snow Leopard? How does a consumer benefit from Canon lenses not fitting on their Nikon DSLR? How does a consumer benefit from HP toner not working in their Epson printer? I can go on.

Other than the brief period where Apple dabbled their toe in the cloning market, Apple has never ever implied that all of their stuff is interoperable with other companies stuff. iTunes has a purpose... to sell you stuff so you can sync it to your Apple media players and phones. They have a published method for developers to plug into it. If they do not wish to support 3rd party devices directly, that is Apple's decision. There are pros and cons to that decision, but it very much follows their model of controlling the experience by controlling the total solution. By controlling the total solution, they greatly reduce their (and their customer's) risk. Compare the cost of support (and quality of support) of OSX (only running on Apple hardware) vs. Windows which runs on everything under the sun. Totally different user experiences and support experiences.

Palm used to ship their PDAs with the Palm Desktop application which handled all the syncing. When I had a Palm device and a Windows Mobile device, I had Palm Desktop to sync with the Palm, and ActiveSync to sync with Windows Mobile. This is not new. Blackberries came with their own stuff.

Palm was being lazy and trying to piggyback on iTunes which was kind of dumb since they are directly targeting the iPhone as their primary competition. Palm must have some serious problems internally between legal and marketing, or else they were just doing this to buy them some time while they developed a real solution. If they were foolish enough to think that this was going to work, then they have some real issues. If I remember correctly, they advertised the Pre as being able to sync with iTunes. If that is in their print ads, then I would think that their legal department is going to have another serious issue coming up with users demanding that they make good on their promise or make good on it with some refunds. If you bought the device planning to use it directly with iTune,s based on Palm's promise... it seriously may be a non-starter if you can't do that. I would be pretty ticked if I was a Palm Pre owner. But I was also pretty leery of the backdoor way they were doing this from the beginning. Palm was basically in the same mode as the jailbreak people... reverse engineer it after every release. That is a pretty sketchy way to do business with what amounts to their "save the company" product. I think the word "desperate" comes to mind.

 

[roach]

How is this different from Apple leeching off Window OS using bootcamp? And at the same time knocking them with their ads.

 

[Ted13]

Like Microsoft did?

I love apple. Sadly, probably too much. But it really is beneficial to everyone that they have real competition. Look at the aviation leaps we made during war. And how slow it was without it.

Apple will only advance so far without someone on their tail.

I 100% agree that competition is good for everyone. Unfortunately Palm is competing the wrong way. If instead of trying to piggy back on iTunes they wrote their own desktop media player software, then they would be truly competing.

 

[pdjudd]

How is this different from Apple leeching off Window OS using bootcamp? And at the same time knocking them with their ads.

Boot camp is not leaching. Apple engineered the Dual boot setup (the concept of dual booting is not anything new), wrote their own windows drivers, and using boot-camp requires a properly licensed version of Windows. Microsoft does allow you to purchase windows for that purpose.

The ability to use windows is a by-product of Apple's partnered use of the Intel platform and proper Windows licensing (handled by the end user). In other words, Microsoft licenses Windows for this contingency. Microsoft could care lerss what Apple does with Boot camp or virtualization as long as the properlicences are obtained. They could change things, but their business model is built around software sales.

And knocking on their ads is an irrelevant issue anyway that has nothing to do with the issue at hand. Apple is completely free to say whatever they want (providing slander and libel is not involved) in their ads regarding Windows. Microsoft likewise is too. Poking fun at your competition is a perfectly legitimate form of advertising that has been employed by hundreds of companies.

You clearly need to understand what "leaching" means because it does not mean what you think. Leaching is not creating your own solutions to problem using legal means. It doesn't matter if it is a solution provided by somebody else. If you create it on your own, it's not leaching - its competing.

 

[Rodimus Prime]

Palm was being lazy and trying to piggyback on iTunes which was kind of dumb since they are directly targeting the iPhone as their primary competition. Palm must have some serious problems internally between legal and marketing, or else they were just doing this to buy them some time while they developed a real solution. If they were foolish enough to think that this was going to work, then they have some real issues. If I remember correctly, they advertised the Pre as being able to sync with iTunes. If that is in their print ads, then I would think that their legal department is going to have another serious issue coming up with users demanding that they make good on their promise or make good on it with some refunds. If you bought the device planning to use it directly with iTune,s based on Palm's promise... it seriously may be a non-starter if you can't do that. I would be pretty ticked if I was a Palm Pre owner. But I was also pretty leery of the backdoor way they were doing this from the beginning. Palm was basically in the same mode as the jailbreak people... reverse engineer it after every release. That is a pretty sketchy way to do business with what amounts to their "save the company" product. I think the word "desperate" comes to mind.

You keep calling them lazy.... I do not think Palm was being lazy as you pointed out they already had software for their other devices that could do syncing.

What palm did was reduce the amount of extra software that we would have to install on our computer to do a very basic thing like sync up our music.

Or must you be one of those people who likes have 10 pieces of software that basically does the exact same damn thing.

 

[Stratus Fear]

What palm did was reduce the amount of extra software that we would have to install on our computer to do a very basic thing like sync up our music.

No, what Palm did was try to capitalize on someone else's product so they didn't need to make their own.

 

[Rodimus Prime]

No, what Palm did was try to capitalize on someone else's product so they didn't need to make their own.

wow the apple fans really can not see it any other way. Are you all that blind that you can not follow logic about reducing software. No matter if Palm was right or wrong it does not get around the argument that what palm did was reduce the amount of extra crap we needed to sync up music.

They can not understand the point that what palm did was reduce the amount of extra software on our computers.

I guess you are one of those people who love having 10+ pieces of software that does the exact same thing.

 

[Stratus Fear]

wow the fan boys really can not see it any other way.

They can not understand the point that what palm did was reduce the amount of extra software on our computers.

I guess you are one of those people who love having 10+ pieces of software that does the exact same thing.

Ad homs are not an argument.

Regardless, businesses are inherently self-serving. Unless Palm came to you and told you "yeah, we did this to reduce software clutter for end users" you're just making stuff up.

 

[pdjudd]

Regardless, businesses are inherently self-serving.

Not to mention its the first obligation that a company holds. They are legally obligated to serve in a manner that will ensure the companies successes. That is almost always going to entail making sure that you don;'t enable competition with yourself or assist your competitor.

Apple has a vested business with them selling iPods and iPhones, to keeping iTunes close to themselves. Aiding competitors via system that doesn't make much profit doesn't makes sense. Their hardware business is a conflict that ensures that they have to be restrictive.

 

[Stratus Fear]

Not to mention its the first obligation that a company holds. They are legally obligated to server in a manner that will ensure the companies successes. That is almost always going to entail making sure that you don;'t enable competition with yourself or assist your competitor.

Apple has a vested business with them selling iPods and iPhones, to keeping iTunes close to themselves. Aiding competitors via system that doesn't make much profit doesn't makes sense. Their hardware business is a conflict that ensures that they have to be restrictive.

Exactly.

And since we know for-profit business is self-serving, it's pretty easy to look at these "chicken" arguments too, and chuckle. I mean, isn't it just as easy to say that Palm is too afraid to compete with their own solution, instead using Apple's? That's a pretty worthless argument... The fact of the matter is that Palm thought it easier and more profitable to piggy-back off of a competitor without an agreement nor a license to do so. Apple fought back to protect their position. Palm needs to do its own thing. Pretty simple, really.

 

[jellomizer]

Does anyone actually believe that 100% of all iTunes users are also iPod owners? There are plenty of people out there who love the iTunes experience but still use other players or smartphones. Why not let them sync their music and potentially purchases to their devices? Apple is cutting off a revenue stream. Short-sighted. Stupid.

There is a right way and a wrong way to do things. I would say Palms method was unethical the way they approached it. By hacking your product to make it pretend what it is not, isn't the right way to do it. I agree apple should allow other phones access iTunes. But that is Apples decision not the manufactures. They can work together and make some sort of contractual agreement then fine. But just pretending you are not a competing product and get that data isn't the ethical way of doing it.

 

[theBB]

Case and point about the XML file. I would not be surpised in the least of some other music player was threating unseating the iPod that was using that file to sync that apple would shut it down. Apple is a chicken when it comes to fighting.

Blackberry sells a lot more smartphones and it is in a much better financial shape than Palm. It has also released a proper syncing software, which looks no more complicated than the syncing preference window that the user would face in iTunes. I believe there are similar solutions for Windows Mobile and Nokia phones as well. XML file has not disappeared. If Palm thinks it is so much more scarier than these three, it is delusional.

 

[Neotyguy40]

As someone else has stated, I don't think Palm should be able to 'piggyback' on what Apple worked so hard for.

Look, iTunes downloads music and other things... That is it... That is ALL it does (and can auto-sync it with the iPod).

The things that it downloads? They aren't inside iTunes, they are in the computer.

Palm just needs to suck it up and make an iTunes look-a-like that downloads music through the iTunes store, and then syncs it to their phone, not try and hack into an already made piece of software...

 

[rjohnstone]

Palm just needs to suck it up and make an iTunes look-a-like that downloads music through the iTunes store, and then syncs it to their phone, not try and hack into an already made piece of software...

Yea... like Apple's gonna let that happen.
The ONLY app that can access the iTunes Store is iTunes.

Apple requires you to use iTunes (this includes the iTunes/App Store apps on the iPhone) to purchase/download content from the iTunes Store.
Apple does not allow any third party app access to the iTunes Store for purchases.

 

[5DollaFootlong]

palm should follow in research in motion's footsteps and make their own application. that way, they are not perceived as freeloaders, and their app will function better.

 

[bobertoq]

How does a consumer benefit from Ford wheels not fitting on their Chevy? How does a consumer benefit from Internet Explorer not running on Snow Leopard? How does a consumer benefit from Canon lenses not fitting on their Nikon DSLR? How does a consumer benefit from HP toner not working in their Epson printer? I can go on.

But Chevy isn't preventing F.O.R.D. from fitting their tires on their cars. Apple isn't preventing Internet Explorer from running on Snow Leopard. Nikon isn't preventing Canon from fitting their lenses on their cameras. HP isn't preventing Epson from using their toner in their printers. I can go on.

Apple, however, is preventing people who paid a lot of money for a phone, from syncing music they bought from the iTunes Store through iTunes. Now of course you're going to say, "Well you can use a WinAmp or something like that." Well of course you could. When you get that new computer you won't be able to use it until you go to the store and buy a different keyboard, because Apple won't allow you to use Microsoft keyboards. When you get that new car, F.O.R.D. won't let you use those Allied wheels you want. I can go on.