Parking spaces stretch to fit fat rides

[stcanard]

I believe he was talking about height...

Well parkades have been able to handle pickups for as long as I've been driving, SUV's on the roads are no higher than pickups, and the shrinking of the spots has not to my knowledge included rebuilding parkades to lower vertical clearances, that didn't make sense to me.

 

[makisushi]

Ah, sailing. A sport that did not exist before the H2 was there to lug equipment. Three cheers for the H2!

And I only care that you're lying when you say you didn't buy it for looks/size appeal. That's the final reason that anyone would buy one. You may have had other things on your mind, but a realistic solution to your equipment hauling needs could have been attained at a better price with better results.

If it makes you feel any better, you can think whatever you want. Man, I knew, I should have called you for advice...my life would have a much better quality to it if only I did every thing according to Paul Whinnel...I think you should embrace people's difference of opinions and not let my decisions rile you so much.

When a huge, 4-door Dodge Ram (or whatever the hell it was) pins my car in a space, and keeps me from getting in, it's car theft. He's lucky I was in a hurry, or I would have called makisushi to help me tow his vehicle away. Honestly I couldn't decide whether to scratch it or call the cops, in the end it probably cost him the same.

I would die laughing if i ever saw a hummer get nailed by low-clearance... Things like that are why I need a camera phone.

paul

I am not sure how you think destroying someones property is an answer, again, I am suggesting anger management for you.

 

[mactastic]

Well this thread is rapidly spinning out of control...

 

[EJBasile]

Has anyone ever seen the fraiser episode where his neighbors parking space is next to his in the parking garage and his neighbor has a hummer. The hummer being so wide takes up so much of the parking space that fraiser cannot get out of his car (i think it was a BMW) so he climbs of the sunroof and hits a pipe which then burts and drentches the interrior of his car with water.


This discussion just reminded mo of that

 

[srobert]

It's funny. We live in a time when SUVs are a more touchy subject than the death penalty, religion or abortion. ^_^

raiderz182. Please. You don't have to leave simply because some fellow forum members have opposite views on this subject. (Even though some are expressing themselves a little too vocally to my liking) I don'T think most of us are idiot. The grass won't be greener on other discusssion boards. Stay for all those other threads you enjoyed and forget this one. I think it should have been moved to the political section a while ago. Anyway, you do as you like but think it over. And please, no more big words, all of you. IT's against the rules

 

[Abstract]

Also, some of you may not realize that some of the SUVs out there get the same gas milage as minivans. Think about how many people own minivans.

In addition to people buying expensive cars to look "showy", maybe they like the fit and finish of a nicer car. If you had enough money to spare to buy a porshe (as a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc car, would you?). In the moive "Ferris Buelers Day Off" doesn't Farris say something like "Now if you had the oppertunity to drive a car like this (ferrari), wouldn't you?"

People don't buy minivans for vanity --- only because they have kids and need things to carry. The SUVs that have the same mileage as minivans are smaller than minivans. An SUV is like a minivan that carries less and looks tougher and cooler. So really, if you have need to carry things, a decent station wagon or minivan would suffice for most people.

And Porsches are made to perform. Forget Ferrari -- Porsches are probably the best cars designed for performance (if only looking at the sports cars and not the Cayenne ). SUVs are just.....big. You can get many different types of nice, fast cars with great finish and better performance and handling for the price of a great SUV.

 

[redAPPLE]

That’s precisely why I drive a Geo Metro.

i walk.

 

[combatcolin]

There is nothing wrong in aspiring to buy an expensive car.

However, in the UK expensive does not always mean "massive" with "dire fuel economy".

BMW, Audi, Mercedes are just 3 (all German so last forever) examples.

 

[Moxiemike]

That's the other aspect of parking monster vehicles that would make me never buy one. Can you imagine the billions of dollars it would cost to tear down parking garages and build new ones just so these monstrosities can use them! Personally I think they should be banned from parking garages as they are too big for the spaces and block the ability to see beyond them.

The sooner they are banned from areas where they are useless, the better.

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! My other favorite is when they drive SOOOOO slow around the garage because they're too close to the roof. Hysterical.

But yea. In Pittsburgh, there's not much street parking, and they almost HAVE to use garages. Some are higher roofed, but most aren't. I kinda think "if i had to drive to work everyday, wouldn't i pick a vehicle that was appropriate for the ride in?" and by that I mean something that a) fits easily into parking spaces (and yes, my 9-3, not a small car by ANY means, fits into 99.9% of the spaces out there...even compact ones) and b) pick a vehicle that is actually easy to park--if you're late, who wants to struggle to find street parking? During day baseball games, the city closes most of the garages in the AM so the baseball fans (in Pittsburgh, I think there's maybe 3 or 4 of them. hehe) can use the garages. You should see the scramble for spaces during those times.

Eh. But it's america. I've heard teens gossiping about who's local target or best buy is bigger. I can only imagine the kinds of cars these schmucks will end up driving. Daddy and Mommy dun taught 'em bigger is better. Just like the US vs. Iraq. We're bigger, so we're better. Yeehaw.

Man. I saw this nice island for sale.... Ugg, Paul, you wanna help chip in? Only $1.5 million! We could ban all SUVs except for exploring the little rainforest area on the southern coast. Get some old (1960s!) Land Rovers. And actually use 'em offroad. Hehe.

The funny thing is, people use the "I have to go do xxx in the woods" justification for having an SUV. I mean, i've gone camping, storing everything i need in my car. And parked well off road near my campsite.

Well, I took my lowly, no 4x4 Saab out into some fairly deep and muddy woods, parked well off road in a bunch of mud, and boy the car handled it like a champ. Sure, there's a limit to how much I can do with this, but if you can take a Saab sedan out into the forest, drive about a mile off road (albeit carefully. carefully = key word here) and do my woodsy explorations with my camera and hang with my 4 other passengers. That's pretty damn flexible to me. Oh. And on the way out there, it's all big highway. So my Saab gets 37.2 mile per gallon. Yipppppeee!

 

[hal0n]

People don't buy minivans for vanity --- only because they have kids and need things to carry. The SUVs that have the same mileage as minivans are smaller than minivans. An SUV is like a minivan that carries less and looks tougher and cooler. So really, if you have need to carry things, a decent station wagon or minivan would suffice for most people.

And Porsches are made to perform. Forget Ferrari -- Porsches are probably the best cars designed for performance (if only looking at the sports cars and not the Cayenne ). SUVs are just.....big. You can get many different types of nice, fast cars with great finish and better performance and handling for the price of a great SUV.

As long as we are on a tangent... Porsche races cars to sell more street cars, Ferrari sells racing cars to afford to race. As far as performance is concerned Ferrari's are probably the top make in the class. Before the Porsche CGT the largest engine you could getin a Porsche was a flat 6 that was mounted behind the rear wheels (rear overhang!!! gack!!!). I would definately take Ferrari's smallest displacement vehicle over that! It happens to be the V8 mid engined 360 modena. Also, to keep this on topic, I used to see a red 360 parked on campus at the U of M. I wouldn't even consider that if I had a $135K car. And that thing is a beast too. There is nothing small about the current italian racing cars.

I think if you can afford an H2 to pull your boat you can also afford a car that you can actually use in an urban setting.

- Kevin

 

[stcanard]

i walk.

Ahh, you hit the nail on the head. This is all about moral superiority. "I'm better than he is because I drive a smaller car."

Apparently I'm better than him, because I commute to work by bike. I don't see why they need these huge parking spots to fit cars into, if I'm happy riding my bike everyone should be happy, I think they should take all the parking spots out and replace them with bike racks and lockers so everyone will have to ride a bike.

I'm sure you could make a case that society would be better served by taking all the money spent on road infrastructure and instead supplying free shoes to the country so they can walk everywhere.

And that it the problem with trying to take a moral argument and apply it to society at large. Morality is not an absolute, it is a relative.

 

[makisushi]

The funny thing is, people use the "I have to go do xxx in the woods" justification for having an SUV. I mean, i've gone camping, storing everything i need in my car. And parked well off road near my campsite.

Why should anyone have to justify anything to you? I am having a hard time understanding why you guys care so much about other people's purchases.

 

[EJBasile]

People don't buy minivans for vanity --- only because they have kids and need things to carry. The SUVs that have the same mileage as minivans are smaller than minivans. An SUV is like a minivan that carries less and looks tougher and cooler. So really, if you have need to carry things, a decent station wagon or minivan would suffice for most people.

And Porsches are made to perform. Forget Ferrari -- Porsches are probably the best cars designed for performance (if only looking at the sports cars and not the Cayenne ). SUVs are just.....big. You can get many different types of nice, fast cars with great finish and better performance and handling for the price of a great SUV.

I know quite a few people with only 1 kid that buy minivans. Also, say i you had 2 kids, needed room for luggage, and wanted something that would go through the snow well, would you buy a porshe? I do agree that the Cayenne is sorta- ugly.

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

<snip> I am having a hard time understanding why you guys care so much about other people's purchases.

I think the issue on some SUV's for me are:

- They are not required to meet the same safety standards as cars are.

- Because of the above they are dangerous to the other drivers in a collision.

- Because they are not cars, they have headlights that blind the car drivers.

- They fall through a loophole on CAFE milage standards.

The above are objective reasons IMO. The subjective (not reflected by all SUV drivers, but enough that stereotypes evolve):

- The "I'll make this fit" mentality.

- The "Gee, I have 4x4 drive, so I'll drive 60mph+ during a snowstorm or on icy roads" mentality. This causes delays for those that were trying to drive according to conditions when the SUV spins out or crashes. (This one even applies to folks like me that have AWD "cars")

- The "intimidation factor"; because of the size and weight advantage of some of the SUVs - some muscle in, just because their time is more important than the rest. (Yes, smaller cars fall prey to this too, through "I am small enough to fit anywhere" mentality)

Keep in mind stereotypes of certain vehicles and drivers has been around forever. At one time it was women drivers. Another was the VW Beetle owner/driver. The "pick your nationality" driver. The cell phone user behind the wheel. The list can go on.

Another factor that can not be ignored is the growing differences between the classes here in the US. The "haves" and "have-nots" if you will. Never before in our nations history IMO have we had such disparity in wages. This is spilling over on to our highways. Living in Northern Virginia, you know of the HOV lanes. Some are enforced, but for the Dulles Toll Road, some have nicknamed the HOV lanes - the Lexus lanes. For the fines are low enough that for the first couple of infractions, it can be considered a cost of doing business.

At the same time we have seen the ability of the local governments to keep law enforcement levels up. I am old enough to remember that you could not sneeze on the Beltway, without a police officer seeing you. Traffic laws were enforced. Today, you or I can make a three trips around the Beltway - and never see a police officer enforcing traffic laws.

For myself, I have no problems with the purchase of an SUV. I would like some of the SUV owners to realize that they can not find parking up close, that won't ding my Baja. That the larger SUV owners to realize that they pose a greater treat to the safety of others on the road because of their size and weight. Or just because they have 4x4, they can create parking spaces on the grassy areas when they take their kids to a soccer game, destroying the grass for others to enjoy. Sort of like the responsibility I took when a company vehicle was a Suburban, I tried to be a good neighbor.

I understand that you feel like you are under attack by some. You just have to look at the frustration of some of the comments being made. I think some of it is missed place outrage at the excess consumerism that we have in this country. It does not help when some SUV owners try to justify their choice, with comments like "I needed the interior space". For when a minivan or the station wagons of old, have/had much more space than their SUV. Even I have had to defend my Baja.

Sorry for the long response. Hope it puts some of what has been said in to perspective.

 

[makisushi]

I think the issue on some SUV's for me are:

- They are not required to meet the same safety standards as cars are.

- Because of the above they are dangerous to the other drivers in a collision.

- Because they are not cars, they have headlights that blind the car drivers.

- They fall through a loophole on CAFE milage standards.

The above are objective reasons IMO. The subjective (not reflected by all SUV drivers, but enough that stereotypes evolve):

- The "I'll make this fit" mentality.

- The "Gee, I have 4x4 drive, so I'll drive 60mph+ during a snowstorm or on icy roads" mentality. This causes delays for those that were trying to drive according to conditions when the SUV spins out or crashes. (This one even applies to folks like me that have AWD "cars")

- The "intimidation factor"; because of the size and weight advantage of some of the SUVs - some muscle in, just because their time is more important than the rest. (Yes, smaller cars fall prey to this too, through "I am small enough to fit anywhere" mentality)

I do understand your concerns, but the same can be said of 18 wheelers.

Keep in mind stereotypes of certain vehicles and drivers has been around forever. At one time it was women drivers. Another was the VW Beetle owner/driver. The "pick your nationality" driver. The cell phone user behind the wheel. The list can go on.

Another factor that can not be ignored is the growing differences between the classes here in the US. The "haves" and "have-nots" if you will. Never before in our nations history IMO have we had such disparity in wages. This is spilling over on to our highways. Living in Northern Virginia, you know of the HOV lanes. Some are enforced, but for the Dulles Toll Road, some have nicknamed the HOV lanes - the Lexus lanes. For the fines are low enough that for the first couple of infractions, it can be considered a cost of doing business.

I agree with you completely on this...but it is the mentalities of the previous posters that perpetuate this type of behavior, much like the justification of destroying other peoples property because of a difference of opinion.

This thread should really be in the political area now, and I see that many people don't like my decisions (not just with which vehicles I purchase), but they are mine to make.

 

[mactastic]

I do understand your concerns, but the same can be said of 18 wheelers.

SUV drivers aren't required to have a special license, so it's not quite the same thing.

 

[Frump]

If you can justify it you can buy it! A very convenient argument.
I live in the German Alps and have to drive up a steep hill to get to my house. This is no problem in my Ford Fiesta in winter with winter tires.
I know a lot of American that live here and they justify their purchase because of where they live and in the winter they need 4 wheel drive!
There is a major keeping up with the Jones's factor when it comes to buying SUV's. If gas cost $5.00 a gallon you would not see so many SUV's on the road.

There are situations where you would need one of these type of vehicles. It has nothing to do with the size of ones penis but the size of ones wallet.

 

[stcanard]

This thread should really be in the political area now, and I see that many people don't like my decisions (not just with which vehicles I purchase), but they are mine to make.

Reminds me of a cartoon in today's paper:

http://www.ucomics.com/nonsequitur/2005/01/05

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

I do understand your concerns, but the same can be said of 18 wheelers.

As noted by someone else (above now), there is a difference in that they hold a CDL license. This may push this thread further towards the Political Forum, but I think that the needs to be stricter enforcement of CDL holders. Including the use of GPS to fine them, and suspend them for exceeding speed limits.

Also the number of 18 wheelers on the road are less than other vehicles. I am sure that someone will point out if I am wrong, but the number of accidents involving "big rigs" are far less than the "consumer" vehicles. And if you trust the trucking industry figures, many of those accidents are caused by the general driver not giving proper "berth" to the "big rigs". I also support the suspension or revocation of a CDL for those that demonstrate a total disregard of public safety while driving under a CDL.

The subjective factors I mentioned hold true with the "big rigs". The only objective factor that I can see working in reality is having a uniform headlight height, so that drivers are no blinded. For I see no way that CAFe standards, or car safety standards can be made to work for big rigs.

I agree with you completely on this...but it is the mentalities of the previous posters that perpetuate this type of behavior, much like the justification of destroying other peoples property because of a difference of opinion.

This seems to a losing argument here. Their actions are not right, nor are the actions of those that own larger vehicles that create a situation of not being able to get in to ones vehicle. It would be different if laws and law enforcement were available for those that were denied lawful entry to their vehicle by those that feel they are above common decency.

This thread should really be in the political area now, and I see that many people don't like my decisions (not just with which vehicles I purchase), but they are mine to make.

I am not sure that this needs to be moved. But that is my opinion.

Again I am sorry that you feel as if you have been put on a defensive posture. I do believe that it is wrong that your choice of vehicle is being made the poster child of the problem, if there is a problem.

In the end what we have is a situation that both sides are unwilling to yield on. To me that is the shame. For each side has staked their claim to their own "high ground".

What those that are against the SUV forget is that the auto industry is cyclical. In a few years time we will see a new trend emerge. Maybe it will be smaller vehicles. Or maybe vehicles that are more "friendly" to all. Only time will tell.

 

[stcanard]

It would be different if laws and law enforcement were available for those that were denied lawful entry to their vehicle by those that feel they are above common decency.

One thing I do find ironic is that if you look at this thread, the people that are claiming that they get upset that these vehicles are being parked and denying them entry to their own vehicles are the same people that are upset that an attempt is being made to rectify this by once again building parking spots that will accomodate vehicles larger than a sub-compact.

That goes back to my contention that it's got nothing to do with the affect of these things on the road. It's all about moral superiority. And the best part of moral superiority is you don't need facts to back it up, because you -know- it's right.

After all, if the issue is gas mileage, the destruction of our fossil fuels and the creation of greenhouse gases why do I not see a campaign to get all pre 1985 vehicles off the road? My 1980 Citation got significantly worse mileage than my friend's 1994 Pathfinder. It also had lower pollution standards.

What those that are against the SUV forget is that the auto industry is cyclical. In a few years time we will see a new trend emerge. Maybe it will be smaller vehicles. Or maybe vehicles that are more "friendly" to all. Only time will tell.

It's already happening. Ford is discontinuing the Expedition because of low sales.

And funny, enough, for all the complaints I see about hummers, how many are actually on the road per 1,000 people? Claiming the Hummer causes a problem with vehicle size is like claiming Ferarri is creating a problem with speeding. The incidence of these things in the population is so low that it becomes statistically insignificant.

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

One thing I do find ironic is that if you look at this thread, the people that are claiming that they get upset that these vehicles are being parked and denying them entry to their own vehicles are the same people that are upset that an attempt is being made to rectify this by once again building parking spots that will accomodate vehicles larger than a sub-compact.

The issue is that parking is a pain in most areas. Whether you are talking about urban or suburban; parking is harder to get. And in the end this will end up costing the consumer more.

And then it feeds the mentality that I mentioned of the "haves" and "have-nots", that those that can't or won't buy the "big SUVs" end up paying the price. It is a sad slope that there is no return by going down. Sort of along the lines of comments about those "mommy" spots that are popping up at some shopping centers.

That goes back to my contention that it's got nothing to do with the affect of these things on the road. It's all about moral superiority. And the best part of moral superiority is you don't need facts to back it up, because you -know- it's right.

And that goes for both sides.

After all, if the issue is gas mileage, the destruction of our fossil fuels and the creation of greenhouse gases why do I not see a campaign to get all pre 1985 vehicles off the road? My 1980 Citation got significantly worse mileage than my friend's 1994 Pathfinder. It also had lower pollution standards.

Actually I think there was a program in California to do just that.

Maybe a tax credit on your Federal return is in order if you scrap a pre '85 and get a vehicle that gets 30mpg at least highway.

It's already happening. Ford is discontinuing the Expedition because of low sales.

And funny, enough, for all the complaints I see about hummers, how many are actually on the road per 1,000 people? Claiming the Hummer causes a problem with vehicle size is like claiming Ferarri is creating a problem with speeding. The incidence of these things in the population is so low that it becomes statistically insignificant.

This what I meant that Maki's Hummer is being used as the poster child. And that is wrong. The issue is that GM say a market by taking a military vehicle and making a consumer vehicle. And then the follow on with "smaller" versions. But what most will focus on is the look and the name. It is not right that some "attacked" his choice.

 

[stcanard]

The issue is that parking is a pain in most areas. Whether you are talking about urban or suburban; parking is harder to get. And in the end this will end up costing the consumer more.

Then the question becomes why is the current size optimal? There needs to be a balance between parking availability, and sufficient space to accomodate a vehicle within a single spot. We have to balance the frustration of not having enough parking, against the frustration of being pinned in and risking accidental damage (I will ignore the intentional vandalism advocated by some, as I consider that a symptom not a cause).

Yet one of the arguments appears to be that parking shouldn't change, because it's a waste of (time && money && resources) to accomodate larger vehicles. The trend has been set that they change all the time to accomodate differing sizes, so I would contend that people can't just pick the size they are familiar with and decide that is best because that's what they know. However that appears to be exactly what a number of participants in this thread appear to be doing.

Of course this becomes completely pointless to argue without any studies to dtermine what is optimal. I personally rest assured that if the downtown lease-holders are planning to decrease parking revenues by increasing the size of spots (and thus lowering the amount of parking) parking spots that are too small is a serious issue.

(I'm not going to touch the issue of a widening class gulf, as not being a US resident I have no basis on which to argue, not have formed any opinions).

[re: moral superiority]

And that goes for both sides.

Oh, absolutely. Just go look at the rec.bicycles.[misc|soc] groups in usenet to get a hint of the other extreme!

It is not right that some "attacked" his choice.

Agreed.

 

[Moxiemike]

SUV drivers aren't required to have a special license, so it's not quite the same thing.

SUV drivers SHOULD have to pass a special test, IMHO.

I've see too many 5-1 soccer moms who really can't control the car. It's simple, if you can't see over the steering wheel, you probably can't see out of the car and around the car.

I've also seen short women almost drop their kids who they're protecting with their SUVs because the wheel height is so high and the reach to take their babies out of the back seat is very great. Hell, that almost happened to my sister with my nephew in her SUV.

Do you think I want to see that? No. And that's irresponsible parenting.

Also, the SUV drivers who drive too close to the middle of the lane, and often over it on narrow roads (which pitts has a lot of) because they fear nailing traffic to their right, and in return, don't mind slowing down traffic on the left.

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

SUV drivers SHOULD have to pass a special test, IMHO.

I've see too many 5-1 soccer moms who really can't control the car. It's simple, if you can't see over the steering wheel, you probably can't see out of the car and around the car.

I've also seen short women almost drop their kids who they're protecting with their SUVs because the wheel height is so high and the reach to take their babies out of the back seat is very great. Hell, that almost happened to my sister with my nephew in her SUV.

Do you think I want to see that? No. And that's irresponsible parenting.

Also, the SUV drivers who drive too close to the middle of the lane, and often over it on narrow roads (which pitts has a lot of) because they fear nailing traffic to their right, and in return, don't mind slowing down traffic on the left.

Mike, it depends also how do you define "SUV". My Baja, the Toyota Rav4, and the Honda Element and CRV as examples are SUVs. But they are not part of the issue that some, like the examples you posted have.

To be fair, do we now create a new sub class of drivers license? Like we do for motorcycles? Motorcycles require a special skill in order to ridden/driven. The argument could be made that larger SUVs fit that description, but could not the same be said for those that want to drive some of the old Lincoln's that had hoods and trucks longer than a city block?

What if Maki asked me to take his catamaran down to the shore? Is that much different than my going down to Ryder and renting a 20 foot truck? What I am seeing and hearing is a lot of rage towards SUV drivers today. Yet not to the same level that we heard about those of us in the 80's and 90's that were buying pick-up trucks.

What changed is that since the '90s we have become a more polarized society. If we can't attack for some one for their politics, then we attack on their housing or car choices IMO. As I have said though, it is a two way street. Drivers of larger vehicles have to realize that they have to share the roads and parking lots. Same thing for those that drive smaller vehicles.

The greater issue is how do we overcome the "me first" attitude that has grown in this nation. Everyone thinks that their time is more valuable than the next person. Funereal processions are no longer given the respect or following of the law. People driving all sorts of cars block fire lanes at shopping centers, as they do using the handicapped spaces.

For me the issue is one that I raised above. As localities have been forced to cut their budgets, the police are asked to do more with less. They can now only afford to focus on major crime. But by ignoring the "quality of life" issues, we are only feeding the disregard for all laws.

In regards to the first elements of your post. I too have seen that. Then you had people like myself (275#) driving Honda Civics (my previous car, the Baja is just a bit better in that regard). At least for the miles I drive, the other situations you mentioned are the exception, not the rule. I have a far greater fear/dislike of those that talk on cell phones, or those that feel that the highways are their own personal Indy 500.

 

[stcanard]

SUV drivers SHOULD have to pass a special test, IMHO.

I disagree

I've see too many 5-1 soccer moms who really can't control the car.

I agree 100%.

But ... the problem isn't an SUV. You probably notice the problems in SUVs because you are watching them more. I see just as many soccer moms (and a lot of other people) who can't control a Honda Civic either.

The problem is general driver education, not targetting a specific group.