Parking spaces stretch to fit fat rides

[Drgnhntr]

What changed is that since the '90s we have become a more polarized society. If we can't attack for some one for their politics, then we attack on their housing or car choices IMO. As I have said though, it is a two way street. Drivers of larger vehicles have to realize that they have to share the roads and parking lots. Same thing for those that drive smaller vehicles.

The greater issue is how do we overcome the "me first" attitude that has grown in this nation. Everyone thinks that their time is more valuable than the next person. Funereal processions are no longer given the respect or following of the law. People driving all sorts of cars block fire lanes at shopping centers, as they do using the handicapped spaces.

I totally agree with your comments above that more of the issue is the drivers' disregard for others, not necessarily the car they drive.

I wanted to add something in regards to why people dislike others choices for cars. I think that if someone wants to spend the money and buy a large SUV they should be able to. What gets me a little pissed off is when those people claim no responsibly for any of the problems large cars introduce. One example for a large truck, no small car behind you can see past you and your headlights are blinding those in front of you. This tends to annoy those around you even if you are a good driver. The same is true of 18 wheelers, but they at least are supposed to be in only the right most lane.

I think the bottom line is that big and small vehicles don't mix well. Add to that discourteous drivers, and you have even more problems. The upside is that all the large cars on the road has increased my interest in public transit. Maybe something good will come out of all this, eventually.

 

[Rower_CPU]

I disagree



I agree 100%.

But ... the problem isn't an SUV. You probably notice the problems in SUVs because you are watching them more. I see just as many soccer moms (and a lot of other people) who can't control a Honda Civic either.

The problem is general driver education, not targetting a specific group.

But do you not agree with the assertion that poor driving/parking is exacerbated by larger vehicles?

 

[stcanard]

But do you not agree with the assertion that poor driving/parking is exacerbated by larger vehicles?

When a Honda Civic is parked over the line in a spot, it is just as impossible for me to park beside it as it is for an SUV

Pedestrians are just as dead when hit by a Honda Civic as when hit by an SUV

Cyclists are just as dead when hit by a Honda Civic as when hit by an SUV

Poor drivers cause problems, no matter what they're driving.

So no, I don't think the problem is exacerbated, but I do think people are watching them more.

I will tell you from my perspective riding my bike home, I have far more problems with Honda Civics thinking they can dart in and out of traffic, thinking "I'm narrow enough I can go around traffic in that bike lane", and driving by me at very dangerous speeds than I do with a Pathfinder trying to do the same.

 

[stcanard]

your headlights are blinding those in front of you. This tends to annoy those around you even if you are a good driver.

I've seen a lot of comments about SUV headlights being blinding. Don't you find that the xenon lamps in new BMW's and Honda's far more blinding than the average SUV?

I agree headlights are a problem, but it is again a general problem, not one specific to SUV's. Some serious work has to be done to reduce the blinding headlights in all vehicles that are too bright and/or aimed improperly.

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

When a Honda Civic is parked over the line in a spot, it is just as impossible for me to park beside it as it is for an SUV

The issue then becomes why did the Civic "park" over the line? Was it a larger vehicle that was there before you got there, and the Civic made themselves fit?

I know that I have come across spaces that were to close for my comfort. Whether it was a small car that caused the issue, or an SUV - if I see an SUV there I will blame the SUV.

To put it in to perspective, there were far less complaints of the space hogging and road hogging till the SUV became the poster child of what is wrong in the US. Keep in mind it is not just the SUV that is seen as an issue. It is an easy scapegoat of the problems we face as a society.

In some way it is not much different than the African-Americans being blamed for the ills of the '60s. Or the SE Asian's being blamed for the ills of the '70s. Or the Salvadorians and Hondurans being balmed for the '80s. Becuase of the "PC" world that came about in the late '80s and early '90s; we could no longer find an ethic group to blame without being called a "racist". So in the '90s we had Wallstreet. Now we have the SUV.

Whether any side would be willing to agree, I see as a further defining the class system within the US.

 

[stcanard]

I know that I have come across spaces that were to close for my comfort. Whether it was a small car that caused the issue, or an SUV - if I see an SUV there I will blame the SUV.

Which means that you see far more SUV's causing a problem, even if it was the civic causing it in the first place thus reinforcing your bias.

To put it in to perspective, there were far less complaints of the space hogging and road hogging till the SUV became the poster child of what is wrong in the US. Keep in mind it is not just the SUV that is seen as an issue. It is an easy scapegoat of the problems we face as a society.

I see two options here (and I believe in general we agree, since you also seem to be saying that SUV's are a convenient scapegoat, not the actual problem):

1) Increased numbers of SUV's are parking with an even distribution throughout the city thus causing everyone, no matter what size, to have trouble fitting in parking spots

2) Increasingly smaller parking spots are causing everyone, no matter what size, to have trouble fitting in parking spots

And I really have trouble figuring out why everyone jumps to conclusion (1) when occam's razor leads me to conclusion (2) that having a smaller space available to park in has a significant effect on increasing the difficulty bad drivers have fitting into parking spots.

If someone could present me with a study showing why SUV's have a larger impact on the general parking situation than than smaller parking spots do, or can give me a credible explanation on why they think that the 30% of vehicles have a larger affect on parking then the 100% of spots that have shrunk (again going back to the original article that states that parking spots have been shrinking) then I would happily change my tune.

But in the absence of evidence showing that, trying to blame this on the poster boy for society's ills, rather than what seems to me the obvious situation that smaller parking spots -> more parking difficulty leaves me very confused.

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

I've seen a lot of comments about SUV headlights being blinding. Don't you find that the xenon lamps in new BMW's and Honda's far more blinding than the average SUV?

I agree headlights are a problem, but it is again a general problem, not one specific to SUV's. Some serious work has to be done to reduce the blinding headlights in all vehicles that are too bright and/or aimed improperly.

You have hit on an issue of standardization verse regulation. Regulations allow for the Xenon headlights. But standardization does not meet the realities of both headlights to coexist on the road.

IMO we have three classes of vehicles on the road. The car, the SUV and the "big rig". For a majority of the vehicles on the road it breaks down to the car and SUV. Given that both classes do not require special license to drive, there should not be a distinction between the two. For that reason headlight height and brightness should be controlled to the same level.

To that end I do feel that we should headlights on all vehicles that are compatible for the roads that they are driven on. Given the discussion in Virginia about making a portion of I-81 trucks only, if we are willing to segregate cars and trucks this may allow an exception.

I also support a nationwide standard as we do in Virginia that all vehicles be inspected once a year. In my neighbor state, Maryland - cars are only inspected when they are sold. While in Virginia we don't go as far as Maryland - who will "reject" a vehicle for "excessive" rust.

 

[Drgnhntr]

I've seen a lot of comments about SUV headlights being blinding. Don't you find that the xenon lamps in new BMW's and Honda's far more blinding than the average SUV?

I agree headlights are a problem, but it is again a general problem, not one specific to SUV's. Some serious work has to be done to reduce the blinding headlights in all vehicles that are too bright and/or aimed improperly.

Xenon lamps are bad too, however, not all honda's or bmw's have these lamps. A large majority of SUV's and trucks have the height to blind smaller cars. You can choose to add these lamps after market to any vehicle, but you can't make an SUV shorter.

As for parking spaces, not all spaces are decreasing. I have yet to see a "uniform" parking space size. I have seen compact spots but other lots and business draw their own lines, some smaller, others larger. My overall observation is that people can't park or don't have the courtesy to re-park their car no matter what size the space. This goes for everyone in any car. Now the connection to how this affects larger vehicles more is because when a person in a small car parks poorly, it doesn't affect the other spaces as much, if at all. When a large vehicle does it, it can affect cars on either side of it to a degree that it throws off the entire line of parking spaces.

Which means that you see far more SUV's causing a problem, even if it was the civic causing it in the first place thus reinforcing your bias.

I see a bias in blaming the larger car. I ask you who would you blame if instead of a civic, it was an H2 and an SUV?

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

Which means that you see far more SUV's causing a problem, even if it was the civic causing it in the first place thus reinforcing your bias.

For if I am not there when the three cars get there, I place blame on on one driver. That was my point. The lack of consideration regardless of the size of your vehicle is.

I see two options here (and I believe in general we agree, since you also seem to be saying that SUV's are a convenient scapegoat, not the actual problem):

1) Increased numbers of SUV's are parking with an even distribution throughout the city thus causing everyone, no matter what size, to have trouble fitting in parking spots

2) Increasingly smaller parking spots are causing everyone, no matter what size, to have trouble fitting in parking spots

And I really have trouble figuring out why everyone jumps to conclusion (1) when occam's razor leads me to conclusion (2) that having a smaller space available to park in has a significant effect on increasing the difficulty bad drivers have fitting into parking spots.

If someone could present me with a study showing why SUV's have a larger impact on the general parking situation than than smaller parking spots do, or can give me a credible explanation on why they think that the 30% of vehicles have a larger affect on parking then the 100% of spots that have shrunk (again going back to the original article that states that parking spots have been shrinking) then I would happily change my tune.

But in the absence of evidence showing that, trying to blame this on the poster boy for society's ills, rather than what seems to me the obvious situation that smaller parking spots -> more parking difficulty leaves me very confused.

I am sure that such studies exist. Even if they don't it shows a lack of respect on both sides of the issue to find solutions that don't result in vandalism. Keep in mind that I think the SUV "craze" is "short" lived. That soon enough there will be a shift to 'smarter" vehicles that fit the nation as a whole.

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

I have yet to see a "uniform" parking space size. I have seen compact spots but other lots and business draw their own lines, some smaller, others larger.

You hit on another topic. Here in Northern Virginia we have the Dulles Toll Road. For what ever reason they do not subscribe to Federal standards as to lane width. Great since they save $ expanding the roadway, but at the same time making it less safe when the "big rigs" share the same road.

Sort of like the narrow roadways of CT on I-95.

 

[stcanard]

Xenon lamps are bad too, however, not all honda's or bmw's have these lamps. A large majority of SUV's and trucks have the height to blind smaller cars. You can choose to add these lamps after market to any vehicle, but you can't make an SUV shorter.

Since both you and ChipNoVaMac make a similar point, I'll respond to both in one shot ... this is an example of putting the blame in the wrong spot.

Just like xenon lights can be changed, made dimmer, made safe on the road, the blinding SUV lights can be changed. They can be placed lower in the grill, they can be aimed farther down. In both cases it is a design flaw of the lighting system, not an inherent problem in the vehicle. Xenon headlights also show that such design flaws are a general problem, not specific to a single class of vehicle.

As for parking spaces, not all spaces are decreasing. I have yet to see a "uniform" parking space size. I have seen compact spots but other lots and business draw their own lines, some smaller, others larger.

Since the aritcle states that increasing the size of the spots is reversing a trend that started in the 80's, we must assume that the average size of a spot has been decreasing.

This is borne out in personal observation. There are definitely differing sizes (heck, go to Banff and look at the RV parking!), but in general there has been a trend downwards. This has exascerbated a problem, and hit a critical mass.

[snip]

I see a bias in blaming the larger car. I ask you who would you blame if instead of a civic, it was an H2 and an SUV?

Hmm, I think you misread my meaning. I read ChipNoVaMac's statement as saying whenever he sees a misparked car next to a misparked SUV he always assumes it's the fault of the SUV. I was pointing out that is a fallacy. Saying whenever you see a misparked car you assume at some point an SUV was at fault, then backing it up by saying that SUV's are causing the problem is a circular logic.

 

[stcanard]

I am sure that such studies exist. Even if they don't it shows a lack of respect on both sides of the issue to find solutions that don't result in vandalism. Keep in mind that I think the SUV "craze" is "short" lived. That soon enough there will be a shift to 'smarter" vehicles that fit the nation as a whole.

Are you saying that you believe that a small proportion of larger vehicles cause more problems than a large proportion of smaller parking spots? I just don't see how that is possible.

Again, I remind you that the original article states that there has been a trend since the 80's to make parking spots smaller. That is the whole point of my argument: all other things being equal, I would agree that increased parking problems would have to be due to an increased number of larger vehicles.

Given that it is an established fact that parking spots have been getting smaller, I see that as having a greater influence on parking behaviour than SUV's do.

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

Since both you and ChipNoVaMac make a similar point, I'll respond to both in one shot ... this is an example of putting the blame in the wrong spot.

Just like xenon lights can be changed, made dimmer, made safe on the road, the blinding SUV lights can be changed. They can be placed lower in the grill, they can be aimed farther down. In both cases it is a design flaw of the lighting system, not an inherent problem in the vehicle. Xenon headlights also show that such design flaws are a general problem, not specific to a single class of vehicle.

You ad I agree on this point. Headlights should be at a uniform level in all regards.

Since the aritcle states that increasing the size of the spots is reversing a trend that started in the 80's, we must assume that the average size of a spot has been decreasing.

This is borne out in personal observation. There are definitely differing sizes (heck, go to Banff and look at the RV parking!), but in general there has been a trend downwards. This has exascerbated a problem, and hit a critical mass.

The point I think you hit on is that since the mid to late '90s we have become a nation of consumption. To myself and many others we have become a nation of "greed". It is mine and no one else's.

Hmm, I think you misread my meaning. I read ChipNoVaMac's statement as saying whenever he sees a misparked car next to a misparked SUV he always assumes it's the fault of the SUV. I was pointing out that is a fallacy. Saying whenever you see a misparked car you assume at some point an SUV was at fault, then backing it up by saying that SUV's are causing the problem is a circular logic.

Furthest from my point. I was trying to say that unless you were there when three vehicles tried to park side by side, there is no way to base the right or wrong of the parking job.

It is that the large SUVs are an easy target, they get the blame. Empirical or personal evidence may point blame at the SUV.

 

[stcanard]

Furthest from my point. I was trying to say that unless you were there when three vehicles tried to park side by side, there is no way to base the right or wrong of the parking job.

Sorry, I misread the intent. I agree, unless you watch the vehicles park, you don't know who caused the issue. I have seen this in the extreme where one badly parked vehicle in the morning has caused everyone to line up like that, and by the end of the day the one poor vehicle that everyone is complaining about was there because of 15 other vehicles that have all left...

It is that the large SUVs are an easy target, they get the blame. Empirical or personal evidence may point blame at the SUV.

I think we are in complete agreement here. I hereby declare this thread closed!

I'm just in a bad mood today because a larger than average snowfall (in Vancouver that is defined as enough snow that there is actually white visible on the ground) means that I had to promise my wife I wouldn't bike to work today, so I'm stuck in a car grousing about traffic instead of enjoying a nice bracing ride.

 

[EJBasile]

Why aren't pickup trucks being yelled about. They are in many cases the same thing as SUVs except with a pickup bed.

I do find xenon headlights annoying because they are so bright, even though my car has them.

As for the height of SUVs discussion, my Range Rover has ride hight adjustment where you can adjust the ground clearence of the road. When I turn of my car the suspention automaticly lowers to make getting in and out of the car easier. It also automaticly adjusts the suspention if your going off road. If your on the highway you can lower the suspension to get better fuel economy.

I do think though if your going to buy an SUV it has to have AWD or 4 wheel drive otherwise it totally defeats the purpose. My cusin who lives in texas bough a 4X2 Jeep Grand Cherokee, so much for being a Jeep. You might as well buy a passat wagon or something.

 

[Rower_CPU]

When a Honda Civic is parked over the line in a spot, it is just as impossible for me to park beside it as it is for an SUV

Pedestrians are just as dead when hit by a Honda Civic as when hit by an SUV

Cyclists are just as dead when hit by a Honda Civic as when hit by an SUV

Poor drivers cause problems, no matter what they're driving.

So no, I don't think the problem is exacerbated, but I do think people are watching them more.

...

I think you're oversimplifying.

There's a difference between being parked over the line because you're a bad driver and because your vehicle gives you no other option.

Getting run over by an SUV will do more damage than being run over by a compact. The potential for injury/death is higher for the "other guy", whether pedestrian, bike, or compact car, with an SUV.

SUVs have wider turning radiuses, higher centers of gravity, and longer stopping distances due to their size - these factors make poor drivers even more dangerous behind the wheels of large cars than small ones.

 

[stcanard]

There's a difference between being parked over the line because you're a bad driver and because your vehicle gives you no other option.

There's also a difference between being parked over the line because your vehicle is too big, and being parked over the line because a 25 year trend has made parking spots too small.

I'm going to cut the rest, to try and keep this on topic, since my intent was never to debate the safety or environmental friendliness of SUV's. If you look back at my original entry in this thread, I am applauding what may finally be the end of a 25 year trend to make parking spots ridiculously small. This from the point of view of someone who drives either a Camry or an MX-6, neither of which I would consider unreasonably big for someone with a family.

My problem is how many people seem to think that the current size is perfect. My guess is this is because a large portion of this board's population is young enough that they haven't noticed that the spots used to be larger (again, as referenced in the article, this is not personal opinion).

I've been trying to come up with a decent analogy, and I think I might finally have one. I live in a city (Vancouver, BC) with a transit system that is woefully inadequate. It's poorly planned, routes are politically motivated, and it's finances are so poorly managed that it is actually cheaper to pay gas, maintenance, and downtown parking costs on a car than it is to use the transit system. What's even worse is that the system doesn't even serve the 60% of commuters that commute from suburb to suburb, as it is designed as a radial system from downtown Vancouver out to the suburbs.

Now faced with declining riderships (given the choice of a 5 minute drive or a 40 minute bus-ride as I had in a previous job guess which one I used; my current choice is a 20 minute drive, a 25 minute bike ride, or a 45 minute bus, and this is a route where I don't even have to do a transfer), our transit authority has decided it's obvious that the problem is it's too easy to drive. So, instead of improving the transit system to meet the needs of the people, they are raising taxes on vehicles to try and force people into the system.

This is the same logic I'm seeing with parking sizes. After a 25 year trend of shrinking parking spots, we're now seeing people have trouble fitting into them. Obviously the problem is the cars have gotten too big.

 

[Rower_CPU]

There's also a difference between being parked over the line because your vehicle is too big, and being parked over the line because a 25 year trend has made parking spots too small.

Do you have any evidence/study that shows this? I'd be interested in seeing if this is, in fact the case on both side of our border.

I'm sure that parking spaces have been shrunk somewhat due to space demands as more and more cars try to occupy the same space...then again, I doubt there were too many high-rise parking structures 25 years ago. Wasn't it all just dirt lots back then?

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

Why aren't pickup trucks being yelled about. They are in many cases the same thing as SUVs except with a pickup bed.

My point exactly. These are different times we live in. People seem to be looking for a scapegoat. SUVs are an easy target at what we can't say at the ballot box.

 

[Rower_CPU]

My point exactly. These are different times we live in. People seem to be looking for a scapegoat. SUVs are an easy target at what we can't say at the ballot box.

I agree that SUVs are being targeted to the exclusion of other large vehicles - I think one reason for this is that they have seen rampant growth (both physically and in numbers on the road) over the past few years. Can you imagine seeing a non-military vehicle the size of the Hummer on the roads 10 years ago? Instead of minivans, people started driving Expeditions, Suburbans and other similarly oversized vehicles as their everyday mode of transportation.

As with all things, it's a pendulum. We're seeing SUVs targeted now, which indicates that the trend is swinging back in the other direction (e.g. the popularity of the Mini Cooper).

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

Do you have any evidence/study that shows this? I'd be interested in seeing if this is, in fact the case on both side of our border.

I'm sure that parking spaces have been shrunk somewhat due to space demands as more and more cars try to occupy the same space...then again, I doubt there were too many high-rise parking structures 25 years ago. Wasn't it all just dirt lots back then?

Rower, I can say that I have seen parking in the shopping centers (in open lots) get smaller. We have one store that if you are not in a Civic or an Echo; you will not be happy. This is in a county that probably leads in "big vehicles" (Montgomery County, Maryland). Other shopping centers around here may offer more width; but the "depth" between the cars has lost to be welcomed.

In the end we all pay the price. Through insurance, or through our own pockets since many of the more expensive vehicles MAY be done through a lease.

 

[stcanard]

Do you have any evidence/study that shows this? I'd be interested in seeing if this is, in fact the case on both side of our border.

In this case, no. I'm basing the strength of the argument on the following statement in the article:

..along with increasing the minimum width of parking spaces...Such moves are reversing a trend that began in the 1980s

And making the assumption that the reverse of increasing the minimum width would be decreasing the minimum width. Now whether the statement in the article is based on facts, or the author's personal opinion I cannot say.

I do see a number of lots with spaces that have been repainted (you can still see the outline of the original lines) narrower. I strongly suspect that the degree of movement is regionally dependent, with spaces being shrunk in Toronto or New York a lot more than they are in Houston or Winnipeg.

I'm sure that parking spaces have been shrunk somewhat due to space demands as more and more cars try to occupy the same space...

I'm betting (and this is opinion I have absolutely no facts to back it up) that given the increased value of downtown property, this has as much to do with increasing revenue by cramming more pay parking spots into a given volume as it has to do with space demands. But that's just the cynic in me talking.

then again, I doubt there were too many high-rise parking structures 25 years ago. Wasn't it all just dirt lots back then?

It's a little known fact that Stonehenge was actually a multi-level parkade back when it was built. Unfortunately they made the miscalculation of putting the SUV parking on the roof and, well, you can see the results...

 

[Rower_CPU]

Rower, I can say that I have seen parking in the shopping centers (in open lots) get smaller.

I'm not doubting your or stcanard's claim; I just would like to see facts rather than anecdotal evidence. Parking spaces seem a lot smaller in my Tacoma than they did in my Metro, but it doesn't mean I think they've all shrunk in the last 3 years.

 

[Rower_CPU]

In this case, no. I'm basing the strength of the argument on the following statement in the article:

..along with increasing the minimum width of parking spaces...Such moves are reversing a trend that began in the 1980s

...when small cars were popular.

Helps to finish that sentence. So the author is simply stating that parking spaces usually match the size of popular cars. Well duh.

The quote in the following paragraph is equally silly:

"A lot of us are frustrated trying to pull into compact parking spaces," says Guy Bjerke, chairman of Concord's planning commission. "My wife drives a minivan, and I drive a sedan. But even with those cars, some of those compact spots seem pretty small."

Wouldn't it seem pretty obvious that neither a sedan nor a minivan is a compact car?

It's a little known fact that Stonehenge was actually a multi-level parkade back when it was built. Unfortunately they made the miscalculation of putting the SUV parking on the roof and, well, you can see the results...

Figures.

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

I agree that SUVs are being targeted to the exclusion of other large vehicles - I think one reason for this is that they have seen rampant growth (both physically and in numbers on the road) over the past few years. Can you imagine seeing a non-military vehicle the size of the Hummer on the roads 10 years ago? Instead of minivans, people started driving Expeditions, Suburbans and other similarly oversized vehicles as their everyday mode of transportation.

As with all things, it's a pendulum. We're seeing SUVs targeted now, which indicates that the trend is swinging back in the other direction (e.g. the popularity of the Mini Cooper).

You and I are in agreement on the basics here. What dismays me is that with gas hitting $2 a gallon here in the US we have not seen a VERY substantial slow down in the SUV market.

Sort of what is driving the housing costs to a level that most in the DC area can not afford basic housing unless there are two incomes. Micron just had a weekend job fair for manufacturing jobs at $12.50 an hour. It would be hard pressed for anyone to find decent housing for less than $1000 a month.

So there is little reason in my area that there is little "sympathy" for those that drive "larger vehicles". Not to say that vandalism is in order. But there is a greater deep "hatred" for the class society that is building.

For me I am stuck in the middle. I have associates on both sides. My upbringing is to try and find a happy place for both.