PayPal Played Role in EU Antitrust Complaint About Apple Wallet

[kenaustus]

Apple should be able to demonstrate the investments they have made and get other companies (like PayPal) to pay a reasonable fee, like 10¢, for each transaction their customers enjoy. Not that complicated.

On the flip side, those other companies need to guarantee that there will be no malware from using their software, and they should make their, and Apple's, customers for any crimes there customers suffer - including reimbursement of financial losses.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Apple should be able to demonstrate the investments they have made and get other companies (like PayPal) to pay a reasonable fee, like 10¢, for each transaction their customers enjoy. Not that complicated.

On the flip side, those other companies need to guarantee that there will be no malware from using their software, and they should make their, and Apple's, customers for any crimes there customers suffer - including reimbursement of financial losses.

Apple should be able to run their business as they see fit. Just like PayPay should be able to run their business without explaining how they came to their 3% number.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Apple should be able to demonstrate the investments they have made and get other companies (like PayPal) to pay a reasonable fee, like 10¢, for each transaction their customers enjoy. Not that complicated.

On the flip side, those other companies need to guarantee that there will be no malware from using their software, and they should make their, and Apple's, customers for any crimes there customers suffer - including reimbursement of financial losses.

Why is Apple entitled to a transaction fee?

The customer owns the hardware and PayPal is being allowed/requested to use that (by the device owner)

Apple has no business collecting rents on customer owned hardware.

Apple does not "own" the customer, nor their device.

 

[Spock]

Try reading again based on your post above that I’m coding in comprehend I’m challenging what you’re saying

So you think that PayPal should have supported ApplePay in the hardware that they don't make? PayPal and ApplePay are competitors and ApplePay has an unfair advantage because they wont allow PayPal use of the NFC chip inside of the iPhone. If PayPay had a dominant smartphone blocking ApplePay from using the NFC in the device, I would have the same issue.

 

[JPack]

Apple should be able to demonstrate the investments they have made and get other companies (like PayPal) to pay a reasonable fee, like 10¢, for each transaction their customers enjoy. Not that complicated.

On the flip side, those other companies need to guarantee that there will be no malware from using their software, and they should make their, and Apple's, customers for any crimes there customers suffer - including reimbursement of financial losses.

Yes, Apple also should also be able to collect a transaction fee for every email, text message, and byte of data that gets sent through Wi-Fi and cellular. Don't forget photos taken with the camera and AirDropped to other iPhones.

Do people actually think before they post something?

 

[I7guy]

Who said I was angry? Apple has purposely locked out a feature of the iPhone that blocks competitors, that’s what I don’t agree with. I would still use ApplePay even if they have the choice, I just think that should allow more choice.

I do agree Apple should control their ecosystem. Those who want an open experience have it in Linux and Android phones.

 

[CoolSpot]

Apple should be able to demonstrate the investments they have made and get other companies (like PayPal) to pay a reasonable fee, like 10¢, for each transaction their customers enjoy. Not that complicated.

On the flip side, those other companies need to guarantee that there will be no malware from using their software, and they should make their, and Apple's, customers for any crimes there customers suffer - including reimbursement of financial losses.

I think you misunderstand how this works.

NFC is just a wireless "port". Your phone connects to the NFC terminal and then the software conducts the transaction over the wireless link. This is very much the same as swiping a credit card or inserting a card into a chip reader, only wirelessly.

Charging for this would be like Apple deciding that they can make you pay to transfer a file over Airdrop, and blocking it is like deciding that their phones will only Bluetooth pair with Apple Airpods and no other headphones.

Deciding that their own payment service is the only one that is allowed to use the wireless link (in an attempt to block other payment services) is just scummy, Microsoft-esque behavior and deserves to be slapped down.

Apple is not entitled to be the only wireless payment option because they design/build the iPhone hardware, in the very same way that Microsoft is not entitled to be the only web browser because they designed/built Windows.

There is no defending their conduct here.

 

[I7guy]

Yes, Apple also should also be able to collect a transaction fee for every email, text message, and byte of data that gets sent through Wi-Fi and cellular. Don't forget photos taken with the camera and AirDropped to other iPhones.

Oh wait...my cell phone carrier does just that.

Do people actually think before they post something?

 

[I7guy]

[...]

Deciding that their own payment service is the only one that is allowed to use the wireless link (in an attempt to block other payment services) is just scummy, Microsoft-esque behavior and deserves to be slapped down.

Apple is not entitled to be the only wireless payment option because they design/build the iPhone hardware, in the very same way that Microsoft is not entitled to be the only web browser because they designed/built Windows.

There is no defending their conduct here.

Sure there is plenty of defending their conduct, however those on opposite sides of the fence won't see eye to eye. Apple is clearly entitled to design it's own ecosystem and consumers are clearly free to purchase their products or not.

 

[JPack]

Oh wait...my cell phone carrier does just that.

Visa and Mastercard also do that. But that doesn't stop Apple from tagging along and collecting fees with Apple Pay.

The issue here is Apple is in a near duopoly position and walling off a technology (NFC) they did not pioneer.

 

[turbineseaplane]

I think I finally get it.

Some people just defend Apple “no matter what”

There’s no debate around points or nuance or contextual facts..
It’s just always “Apple is correct”

 

[I7guy]

Visa and Mastercard also do that. But that doesn't stop Apple from tagging along and collecting fees with Apple Pay.

I'm happy they collect their fee and keep my transaction basically private. Apple put it out there and companies accepted. In the beginning I remember some sentiment that Apple Pay wouldn't make it.

 

[I7guy]

I think I finally get it.

Some people just defend Apple “no matter what”

There’s no debate around points or nuance or contextual facts..
It’s just always “Apple is correct”

To be fair and balanced, there are those who criticize Apple "no matter what". There is no critical thinking. It's always "Apple is wrong", "Apple is anti-competitive", "Apple is monopolistic". Oh well. Horses for courses.

 

[turbineseaplane]

To be fair and balanced, there are those who criticize Apple "no matter what". There is no critical thinking. It's always "Apple is wrong", "Apple is anti-competitive", "Apple is monopolistic". Oh well. Horses for courses.

Sure as heck not me.

Being that biased in either direction is bad news bears

 

[dk001]

EU in 2014: Who cares if NFC is locked down, they’ve got a tiny marketshare and no one uses it anyway!
EU in 2022: PayPal says that what we ACTUALLY meant is we care deeply.

More likely in 2013/2014 NFC for wireless paying was in its infancy and was neither oft used nor really developed.
Along comes 2021/2022 NFC as a pay point, especially with the pandemic, the growth and requested use has grown significantly.

 

[CoolSpot]

Sure there is plenty of defending their conduct, however those on opposite sides of the fence won't see eye to eye. Apple is clearly entitled to design it's own ecosystem and consumers are clearly free to purchase their products or not.

NFC is not an ecosystem any more than 802.11 WiFi or Bluetooth are ecosystems. Its a wireless protocol for connecting devices to payment terminal.

Can you see problem of a company blocking equitable use of a standardized wireless protocol to privilege their own payment services?

 

[turbineseaplane]

Can you see problem of a company blocking equitable use of a standardized wireless protocol to privilege their own payment services?

This is a great point.

If you're ok with and/or in favor or Apple locking out NFC access and/or collecting a fee for its usage, the exact same argument necessarily applies to bluetooth, Wi-Fi, hell even USB connections.

What about camera access?
Maybe they should be charging "per exposure" via "digital film packs sold by IAP?"

lmao -- we can go so far down the ridiculous rabbit hold here.

 

[JPack]

This is a great point.

If you're ok with and/or in favor or Apple locking out NFC access and/or collecting a fee for its usage, the exact same argument necessarily applies to bluetooth, Wi-Fi, hell even USB connections.

What about camera access?
Maybe they should be charging "per exposure" via "digital film packs sold by IAP?"

lmao -- we can go so far down the ridiculous rabbit hold here.

Don't forget charging the battery. There's some charging protocol Apple implemented, so they deserve to collect a fee from Anker, Aukey, Belkin, RAVPower, and Samsung for every joule of energy delivered to an iPhone by third-party chargers.

It seems some people don't understand the difference between walling off Apple Pay vs. walling NFC.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

To be fair and balanced, there are those who criticize Apple "no matter what". There is no critical thinking. It's always "Apple is wrong", "Apple is anti-competitive", "Apple is monopolistic". Oh well. Horses for courses.

On one side, there are people who can say “any company is free to charge a commission for their services”.
Or “any company has certain rights and control over the products they create.”

There’s a certain intellectual clarity there that doesn’t require convoluted thinking and isn’t begrudging any company or extolling any company. Applying the same rules to every company, these days, is to say that “Apple is right”.

Even though, the word “Apple” doesn’t appear in either of the statements above.

 

[d686546s]

Or “any company has certain rights and control over the products they create.”

There’s a certain intellectual clarity there that doesn’t require convoluted thinking and isn’t begrudging any company or extolling any company. Applying the same rules to every company, these days, is to say that “Apple is right”.

The operative word here is "certain" and your "intellectual clarity" is the result of you giving it the meaning you want to have it.

If you, for the sake of the argument, accept that these "certain rights" do not extend to locking down certain hardware features to benefit your own services then, all of a sudden, Apple is not "right."

That's the crux of the issue.

 

[lartola]

I'm happy they collect their fee and keep my transaction basically private. Apple put it out there and companies accepted. In the beginning I remember some sentiment that Apple Pay wouldn't make it.

That sentiment still exists in some countries around the world. In Mexico, for instance. And even more so now that Samsung Pay failed in the country with its MST and all.

 

[lartola]

It’s their system why force him to do it there’s a lot more other phones out there will better all us out there supposedly that allows for it why complain move along.

Because of the example they set. When Apple does something, other manufacturers tend to follow suit. Look at what they’ve done with the smartphone market: as soon as Apple started sealing the damn thing and soldering the battery, others followed suit. If I weren’t happy with an iphone because it’s sealed and its battery cannot be easily replaced, I’d be screwed and couldn’t vote with my wallet because now every single other smartphone manufacturer is doing the same. My only choices would be to buy a cheap $10 phone for calls only at the nearest convenience store or to have no cell phone at all.

 

[I7guy]

[…[.

Can you see problem of a company blocking equitable use of a standardized wireless protocol to privilege their own payment services?

No. Why are you saying there is a problem when in fact it’s apples hardware and software and ecosystem? There is no legal justification to open up the nfc, which is why these convoluted laws and regulations are attempting to be created.

 

[d686546s]

There is no legal justification to open up the nfc, which is why these convoluted laws and regulations are attempting to be created.

Given this particular complaint is being taken forward under existing antitrust legislation your statement there might not actually be accurate. We will see.

 

[CoolSpot]

No. Why are you saying there is a problem when in fact it’s apples hardware and software and ecosystem? There is no legal justification to open up the nfc, which is why these convoluted laws and regulations are attempting to be created.

It really isn't convoluted at all. Apple implemented an industry standard NFC connection on their phones and non-Apple software should be able to use it.

I'm sorry if this doesn't fall inline with "businesses can do whatever they want, that's freedom and their right", but the EU doesn't share your view, and the freedom of the public to use whatever payment method they want over NFC takes priority over Apple's desire to lock users into to their own payment service as a condition of using iOS devices.