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Phasing out OS 9, Here Comes Jaguar
- Thread starter arn
- Start date
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Re: putting on my asbestos suit...
MacOS 9 is NOT emulated at any time. When you boot into classic, you are booting a true copy of MacOS 9 that has been 'glued' into MacOS X, so to speak, so it runs in a Window.
Yes, you have to keep the MacOS 9 System Folder and structure because that is what is actually being booted.
TL
MacOS 9 is NOT emulated at any time. When you boot into classic, you are booting a true copy of MacOS 9 that has been 'glued' into MacOS X, so to speak, so it runs in a Window.
Yes, you have to keep the MacOS 9 System Folder and structure because that is what is actually being booted.
TL
Re: Re: not surprising
I have an Epson Perfection 1250 Photo and use it in Photoshop 7 & OS X everyday. Granted the drivers are still beta, but it works great.
As for the retail package of OX 10.2 not coming with an OS 9 install CD, it's understandable. Steve himself laid OS 9 to rest at WWDC. And besides, everyone buying a retail copy of OS X 10.2 will already have an OS 9 install CD.
As to future machines not booting OS 9, this will kind of suck for me. I run OS 9 everyday to play Rogue Spear, and running it in classic just sucks.
Originally posted by TechLarry
You must not own a SCanner
TL
I have an Epson Perfection 1250 Photo and use it in Photoshop 7 & OS X everyday. Granted the drivers are still beta, but it works great.
As for the retail package of OX 10.2 not coming with an OS 9 install CD, it's understandable. Steve himself laid OS 9 to rest at WWDC. And besides, everyone buying a retail copy of OS X 10.2 will already have an OS 9 install CD.
As to future machines not booting OS 9, this will kind of suck for me. I run OS 9 everyday to play Rogue Spear, and running it in classic just sucks.
Re: Re: please help a know-nothing...
Actually, it looks more like OS X WILL SHIP with MacOS 9, it just won't include a stand-alone BOOTABLE version of MacOS 9.
Apple would never pull the Classic Layer from MacOS 9. It would be corporate suicide.
But, of course, this IS Steve Jobs we're talking about here. Anything is possible.
TL
Actually, it looks more like OS X WILL SHIP with MacOS 9, it just won't include a stand-alone BOOTABLE version of MacOS 9.
Apple would never pull the Classic Layer from MacOS 9. It would be corporate suicide.
But, of course, this IS Steve Jobs we're talking about here. Anything is possible.
TL
jayscheuerle
macrumors 68020
Re: Kids games on OS X
Not a single one of my daughter's games is OSX compatible. Around a third need to be booted into 9 including the Jumpstart Spanish which we bought about a month ago.
It seems to me that both OSX and the Classic environment are works in progress...
Originally posted by M_T_Air
In regards to the kids games...
They will not kill classic with Jaguar... so you should be able to run those games... also, what versions do you have? because the latest versions of most kid games are OS X compatible including Reader Rabbit.
Not a single one of my daughter's games is OSX compatible. Around a third need to be booted into 9 including the Jumpstart Spanish which we bought about a month ago.
It seems to me that both OSX and the Classic environment are works in progress...
Re: putting on my asbestos suit...
I don't care much for 9 anymore, but sometimes I have to boot back into it for VPC5. Although VPC5 has come a long way in OSX speed, it's still lacking behind OS9. I'll have to test in Jag, and let you know how that goes.
I don't care much for 9 anymore, but sometimes I have to boot back into it for VPC5. Although VPC5 has come a long way in OSX speed, it's still lacking behind OS9. I'll have to test in Jag, and let you know how that goes.
Re: Re: Kids games on OS X
Unless the program needs to address hardware directly it should boot in classic mode. I have had no problems running even games in classic mode. You might find that the eMac can handle things better than the old iMac. However I do agree to a point that OSX and Classic are a work in progress, most programs not functioning properly in classic are usually the programs fault and not Classics. The software most try to access what it shouldn't, which causes a problem. I love my new quicksilver with OS X. I have only booted it once into OS 9 and that was because I was having cable modem issues and AT&T Broadband "doesn't support OS X."
At any rate get the eMac, it will boot to either X or 9, and try everything in Classic mode and see how it goes. Maybe you'll be surprised and get it to work. Also, check for updates on the web, Maybe the companies were smart and have an OS X update for their programs.
Just MHO.
Unless the program needs to address hardware directly it should boot in classic mode. I have had no problems running even games in classic mode. You might find that the eMac can handle things better than the old iMac. However I do agree to a point that OSX and Classic are a work in progress, most programs not functioning properly in classic are usually the programs fault and not Classics. The software most try to access what it shouldn't, which causes a problem. I love my new quicksilver with OS X. I have only booted it once into OS 9 and that was because I was having cable modem issues and AT&T Broadband "doesn't support OS X."
At any rate get the eMac, it will boot to either X or 9, and try everything in Classic mode and see how it goes. Maybe you'll be surprised and get it to work. Also, check for updates on the web, Maybe the companies were smart and have an OS X update for their programs.
Just MHO.
It's absolutely impossible (with the exception of the Xserve) to get a new Mac without Mac OS 9.
There has not been an update to 9 since 10.1 came out last september. There's no need for a 9 installer. Everyone already has one.
...the only problem I can see is people still using 8.1 - 8.6 and want to try out 10.2
There has not been an update to 9 since 10.1 came out last september. There's no need for a 9 installer. Everyone already has one.
...the only problem I can see is people still using 8.1 - 8.6 and want to try out 10.2
jayscheuerle
macrumors 68020
Re: Re: Re: Kids games on OS X
Some of these games require the CD to be in the drive. Sometimes the game does not recognize that the CD is in the drive, even though it's on the desktop. I've even tried running these games from mounted CD images. How you could possibly infer that it's the programs fault (when it runs fine in OS9) and not Classic's is beyond me. The program hasn't changed. How OSX and the Classic environment run it is different than how OS9 runs it. Classic is a limited work in progress and that progress is probably pretty dried up....
Some of these games require the CD to be in the drive. Sometimes the game does not recognize that the CD is in the drive, even though it's on the desktop. I've even tried running these games from mounted CD images. How you could possibly infer that it's the programs fault (when it runs fine in OS9) and not Classic's is beyond me. The program hasn't changed. How OSX and the Classic environment run it is different than how OS9 runs it. Classic is a limited work in progress and that progress is probably pretty dried up....
About those kids games
Dude, if you're kids games won't run on your new computer, isn't that a benefit? Put the Rev C in your Rumpus room and enjoy a keyboard free of sticky substances.
Dude, if you're kids games won't run on your new computer, isn't that a benefit? Put the Rev C in your Rumpus room and enjoy a keyboard free of sticky substances.
Re: Kids games on OS X
But if Apple doesn't ship OS 9 with Jaguar, how will it be able to run Classic?
I can't see classic mentioned at all on Apple's new MacOS X pages.
http://www.apple.com/macosx/upgrade/requirements.html says:
Third Party Software. The Classic environment in Mac OS X is based upon an installation of Mac OS 9.1 or later (9.2.2 recommended). Most Mac OS 9-compatible applications will run in the Classic environment. If you have any questions, contact the vendor of your product or see our Classic Compatibility list.
This says that Jaguar will support Classic, but it doesn't say that Apple will ship OS 9 alongside Jaguar. So they may stop shipping OS 9 with the new computers (like the new 17" iMac and the upcoming G4's).
Originally posted by M_T_Air
In regards to the kids games...
They will not kill classic with Jaguar... so you should be able to run those games... also, what versions do you have? because the latest versions of most kid games are OS X compatible including Reader Rabbit.
But if Apple doesn't ship OS 9 with Jaguar, how will it be able to run Classic?
I can't see classic mentioned at all on Apple's new MacOS X pages.
http://www.apple.com/macosx/upgrade/requirements.html says:
Third Party Software. The Classic environment in Mac OS X is based upon an installation of Mac OS 9.1 or later (9.2.2 recommended). Most Mac OS 9-compatible applications will run in the Classic environment. If you have any questions, contact the vendor of your product or see our Classic Compatibility list.
This says that Jaguar will support Classic, but it doesn't say that Apple will ship OS 9 alongside Jaguar. So they may stop shipping OS 9 with the new computers (like the new 17" iMac and the upcoming G4's).
Won't buy mac that won't boot in 9
If Apple ditches the ability to boot in OS9, I think it will be years before I buy another mac. I may just eventually get the last, fastet, used mac that can run 9 natively.
I couldn't live without 9 yet, as I need it all the time to do simple things such as move and delete files. For example, there are system files for Nvidia cards which I don't have and I don't want or need these waste of space files. I can't even send the files to the trash unless I am in 9, let alone empty the trash.
Also classic compatability is very poor. I can't even use a scroll wheel in 9 apps! 10.2 fixes neither of these problems. Old games that I still enjoy playing, like Sim City 3000 and Sim theme park refuse to run in classic, again not fixed by 10.2 as of 6C98.
Apple has a long way to go with X to make it as usable as 9, and 10.2 makes little progress. Unless Apple gets their act together and let's me move my own files around on my own single user mac, I am forced to use native booted 9.
It wouldn't surprise me if Apple does this, as Steve Job's new favorite past time is p*ssing off as many die hard mac users as possible in his sado-masochistic game to see how far he can go and still stay CEO.
If Apple ditches the ability to boot in OS9, I think it will be years before I buy another mac. I may just eventually get the last, fastet, used mac that can run 9 natively.
I couldn't live without 9 yet, as I need it all the time to do simple things such as move and delete files. For example, there are system files for Nvidia cards which I don't have and I don't want or need these waste of space files. I can't even send the files to the trash unless I am in 9, let alone empty the trash.
Also classic compatability is very poor. I can't even use a scroll wheel in 9 apps! 10.2 fixes neither of these problems. Old games that I still enjoy playing, like Sim City 3000 and Sim theme park refuse to run in classic, again not fixed by 10.2 as of 6C98.
Apple has a long way to go with X to make it as usable as 9, and 10.2 makes little progress. Unless Apple gets their act together and let's me move my own files around on my own single user mac, I am forced to use native booted 9.
It wouldn't surprise me if Apple does this, as Steve Job's new favorite past time is p*ssing off as many die hard mac users as possible in his sado-masochistic game to see how far he can go and still stay CEO.
Re: Won't buy mac that won't boot in 9
Or you could take the time to learn how to use OSX. Dont be stubborn, its a better OS. You can have 2x as much power, but you have to LEARN. Please, take the time to read on the net, or get a book. There is very complicated stuff about OSX, yes, but most of it is VERY EASY to pick up. Just be willing to learn about it.
If you want to delete system files you can, but you have to login as ROOT. "Why?" you ask? It seems like an extra step, but 1) how often do you want to delete system files? 2) do you want anyone using your computer to be able to delete critical software?
Plus, extra system files dont slow X down like extra extenstions did in 9. You don't need to to delete all that stuff!
I know you are used to 9, and its hard to break away from things you are comfortable with. But trust me, once you learn the differences and get comforable with X, you will never turn back. I havent booted into 9 in months.
If you want to complain about old game compatablilty, you have a pretty poor argument. The rest of your complaints would be solved by simply learning about the OS. DO IT!!
Or you could take the time to learn how to use OSX. Dont be stubborn, its a better OS. You can have 2x as much power, but you have to LEARN. Please, take the time to read on the net, or get a book. There is very complicated stuff about OSX, yes, but most of it is VERY EASY to pick up. Just be willing to learn about it.
If you want to delete system files you can, but you have to login as ROOT. "Why?" you ask? It seems like an extra step, but 1) how often do you want to delete system files? 2) do you want anyone using your computer to be able to delete critical software?
Plus, extra system files dont slow X down like extra extenstions did in 9. You don't need to to delete all that stuff!
I know you are used to 9, and its hard to break away from things you are comfortable with. But trust me, once you learn the differences and get comforable with X, you will never turn back. I havent booted into 9 in months.
If you want to complain about old game compatablilty, you have a pretty poor argument. The rest of your complaints would be solved by simply learning about the OS. DO IT!!
there are Pro and cons.
Pro is definitely that Apple got all great app makers to port there apps to X.
Con is that all people who bought soft (and hard) just before X, got screwed, because they have to cough up the money once again to be able to use it as native x. Not everybody has the cash to go out and buy every 6 months new soft and hard.
Pro is definitely that Apple got all great app makers to port there apps to X.
Con is that all people who bought soft (and hard) just before X, got screwed, because they have to cough up the money once again to be able to use it as native x. Not everybody has the cash to go out and buy every 6 months new soft and hard.
Re: Re: Won't buy mac that won't boot in 9
Pretty poor argument? The games don't run in Classic. I'd say that's a pretty good argument. Many games don't run or run very poorly. I paid for them. I like playing them. Classic should just work!
So, to move files I have to re login as root. How is that any better than rebooting in 9. I should just be able to do it! And even when I have logged in as root, which yes, I did learn to do, it then wouldn't let me mess with any of my main user document folders. OS9 does this without any problems whatsoever.
I've also had a bizarre problem many times, such as some quicktime trailers that I want to move from my internal to an external drive. It would copy them and take the time to do so. The icons would show up on the external drive for 1/2 a second and disappear! they refused to be copied no matter where I tried to move them to on that drive. OS9 let's me move files from one drive to another without problems.
Don't you dare tell me I just have to take the time to learn. Yes, I have learned how to download shareware just to empty the friggin trash. I have learned plenty about OSX and no, I do not take kindly to using the terminal, just like 99% of mac users who don't hang around mac forums on the net. I don't really care to take a course in UNIX either.
Nobody uses my computer so I don't care about somebody messing around with my system files. And there have already been a number of times that I'd like to trash some of that junk that I don't need on a Tibook with limited space on it's drive. For example, when I realized Norton X was junk, there was some daemon file determined to be causing problems and I couldn't move it to the trash without booting into 9. Without 9 I am not able to completely uninstall programs that are causing my mac problems! Getting rid of the ability to boot into it is not progress?
Check your condescending attitude at the door please.
Pretty poor argument? The games don't run in Classic. I'd say that's a pretty good argument. Many games don't run or run very poorly. I paid for them. I like playing them. Classic should just work!
So, to move files I have to re login as root. How is that any better than rebooting in 9. I should just be able to do it! And even when I have logged in as root, which yes, I did learn to do, it then wouldn't let me mess with any of my main user document folders. OS9 does this without any problems whatsoever.
I've also had a bizarre problem many times, such as some quicktime trailers that I want to move from my internal to an external drive. It would copy them and take the time to do so. The icons would show up on the external drive for 1/2 a second and disappear! they refused to be copied no matter where I tried to move them to on that drive. OS9 let's me move files from one drive to another without problems.
Don't you dare tell me I just have to take the time to learn. Yes, I have learned how to download shareware just to empty the friggin trash. I have learned plenty about OSX and no, I do not take kindly to using the terminal, just like 99% of mac users who don't hang around mac forums on the net. I don't really care to take a course in UNIX either.
Nobody uses my computer so I don't care about somebody messing around with my system files. And there have already been a number of times that I'd like to trash some of that junk that I don't need on a Tibook with limited space on it's drive. For example, when I realized Norton X was junk, there was some daemon file determined to be causing problems and I couldn't move it to the trash without booting into 9. Without 9 I am not able to completely uninstall programs that are causing my mac problems! Getting rid of the ability to boot into it is not progress?
Check your condescending attitude at the door please.
For all of you complaining about scanners not having drivers for OS X, there are a few good reasons:
1. most companies were waiting for a suitible host application to run in OS X
(Photoshop is here so that obsticle is out of the way)
2. most of the scanners use a derivative of the TWAIN driver spec.
exerpt from the epson OS X driver info page
At this time, Scanner Mac OS X drivers have not been released because the TWAIN Working Group and Apple have not finalized the specification for OS X TWAIN. No scanner vendor is able to release Mac OS X TWAIN drivers until the TWAIN specification is finalized some time later this year.
With OS 9 pressumably being completely laid to rest, developers will be giving more effort into developing for OS X.
1. most companies were waiting for a suitible host application to run in OS X
(Photoshop is here so that obsticle is out of the way)
2. most of the scanners use a derivative of the TWAIN driver spec.
exerpt from the epson OS X driver info page
At this time, Scanner Mac OS X drivers have not been released because the TWAIN Working Group and Apple have not finalized the specification for OS X TWAIN. No scanner vendor is able to release Mac OS X TWAIN drivers until the TWAIN specification is finalized some time later this year.
With OS 9 pressumably being completely laid to rest, developers will be giving more effort into developing for OS X.
what about quark?
well, apple had better kick quarks ass then.
we need to keep quark untill its osx native.
i can understand the 'use indesign' argument, but it would be to time consuming and expensive for us to swap, and here in the uk not many repro houses use indesign.
well, apple had better kick quarks ass then.
we need to keep quark untill its osx native.
i can understand the 'use indesign' argument, but it would be to time consuming and expensive for us to swap, and here in the uk not many repro houses use indesign.
Of course they will not ship 9 with Jagwire, but they will likely still send you a copy with a new machine. They have to. If they don't there is no way to reinstall classic if it dies for some reason.
LS
maybe os9 will install *with* jaguar. possibly as an optional extra.
they have to install 9 with jaguar, theres still LOADS of os9 apps out there. itd be even more mad than making macs unbootable by os9
they have to install 9 with jaguar, theres still LOADS of os9 apps out there. itd be even more mad than making macs unbootable by os9
OS 9
They don't need to ship it.
Most of us are getting jaguar on top of 10.1
We all already have 9.2.2
Anyone with a cpu capable of running 10.2 will have atleast 9.1
then you got a 9.2.1 (upgrade) with 10.1
10.2 will support 9, just not include the CD.
Hey windows XP didn't include a windows 98 second edition CD did it?
Nor did a red hat linux 7.3 cd include a 6.5 cd.
Stop whining.
I am using my 3 OS 9 cd's as coasters and wall decoration.
They don't need to ship it.
Most of us are getting jaguar on top of 10.1
We all already have 9.2.2
Anyone with a cpu capable of running 10.2 will have atleast 9.1
then you got a 9.2.1 (upgrade) with 10.1
10.2 will support 9, just not include the CD.
Hey windows XP didn't include a windows 98 second edition CD did it?
Nor did a red hat linux 7.3 cd include a 6.5 cd.
Stop whining.
I am using my 3 OS 9 cd's as coasters and wall decoration.
Re: Re: Re: Won't buy mac that won't boot in 9
Hey, settle down! Im not trying to be condecending. Im just telling you that Its not fair to criticize the OS because you don't know how to use it right. Its been my experience that everyone who complains about OSX just doesnt want to take the time to learn how to use i... Just like you said about not wanting to take a UNIX course, most people have this "I know OS9, so why should I change?" attitude.
I fully understand that the people who dont like OSX say "where did the simplicity go?"
If you were running Apples OS development group, what direction would you take? Would you make the OS like 9, simple but limited and ineffecient? Or would you make it more like X, more complex, yet endlessly customizable, versitile, and stable? You say "No one else is using my computer, so I should be able to delete everything!" Well, does this mean Apple should design an OS based around what YOU do? Of course not. They are shooting for a wide audience (including schools and businesses where system file deletion could be a problem). They HAVE to compete with Windows, whether we like it or not...they have to have similar abilities in their OS. I don' t think its ridiculous for apple to ask its customers to make the change.
The terminal is annoying to you? Well dont use it. I LOVE that the terminal is available, and anyone even familiar with UNIX does too. Again, versitality.
"So, to move files I have to re login as root. How is that any better than rebooting in 9. "
Well, A) you don't really have to re-login you COULD use the terminal (its easier than you think!), or get a shareware app to run things as ROOT. And B) if you do want to re-log in, it's just re-logging in, not restarting and booting into OS9. Much much quicker. Try it! OSX makes it much SAFER to delete system files, and its STILL easy. I couldn't tell you how many people's computers I had to "fix" because they moved their system folder or some critical file held within. This will keep this kind of thing from happening.
Im NOT trying to have an attitude with you. But when people come onto a forum and say "I don't like OSX because I cant play simcity and because I cant delete system files I don't like..." Well then I just have to step in and say something because #1) simcity doesnt matter in the longrun when you are disscussing the ins and outs of Operating systems and #2) because you CAN delete the sytem files.
OSX is a great OS even though its still a toddler. With a bit more work (10.2 and later) Im sure it will top anything out there, with a combination of usability and versitility. You want to stick with OS9, Im not going to stop you. But Im telling you now that Apple knows they would be CRAZY to go back to OS9, and you better learn to swim now while the water is still shallow.
Hey, settle down! Im not trying to be condecending. Im just telling you that Its not fair to criticize the OS because you don't know how to use it right. Its been my experience that everyone who complains about OSX just doesnt want to take the time to learn how to use i... Just like you said about not wanting to take a UNIX course, most people have this "I know OS9, so why should I change?" attitude.
I fully understand that the people who dont like OSX say "where did the simplicity go?"
If you were running Apples OS development group, what direction would you take? Would you make the OS like 9, simple but limited and ineffecient? Or would you make it more like X, more complex, yet endlessly customizable, versitile, and stable? You say "No one else is using my computer, so I should be able to delete everything!" Well, does this mean Apple should design an OS based around what YOU do? Of course not. They are shooting for a wide audience (including schools and businesses where system file deletion could be a problem). They HAVE to compete with Windows, whether we like it or not...they have to have similar abilities in their OS. I don' t think its ridiculous for apple to ask its customers to make the change.
The terminal is annoying to you? Well dont use it. I LOVE that the terminal is available, and anyone even familiar with UNIX does too. Again, versitality.
"So, to move files I have to re login as root. How is that any better than rebooting in 9. "
Well, A) you don't really have to re-login you COULD use the terminal (its easier than you think!), or get a shareware app to run things as ROOT. And B) if you do want to re-log in, it's just re-logging in, not restarting and booting into OS9. Much much quicker. Try it! OSX makes it much SAFER to delete system files, and its STILL easy. I couldn't tell you how many people's computers I had to "fix" because they moved their system folder or some critical file held within. This will keep this kind of thing from happening.
Im NOT trying to have an attitude with you. But when people come onto a forum and say "I don't like OSX because I cant play simcity and because I cant delete system files I don't like..." Well then I just have to step in and say something because #1) simcity doesnt matter in the longrun when you are disscussing the ins and outs of Operating systems and #2) because you CAN delete the sytem files.
OSX is a great OS even though its still a toddler. With a bit more work (10.2 and later) Im sure it will top anything out there, with a combination of usability and versitility. You want to stick with OS9, Im not going to stop you. But Im telling you now that Apple knows they would be CRAZY to go back to OS9, and you better learn to swim now while the water is still shallow.