Phil Schiller: Apple Will Not Change Decision on 'Hey' Email App, No App Store Rule Updates Imminent

[acidblood]

Hey is a free download, but it's a revenue stream for Hey. And since it's free on the App Store, Apple makes nothing, and Hey reaps the benefits. That's dumb. I am not on Hey's side.

The only sketchy thing is Apple letting bigger companies (Netflix) get away with doing the same thing, except it makes sense from a corporate politics standpoint because tons of people would be pissed if Netflix pulled their iOS app in protest, and no one would care if Hey went away.

I've bought a bunch of apps on my Mac and Apple took a $0 cut from them (evidently I didn't buy them from the app store). Last I heard, Apple was profitable before 2008 when the 30% cut was instituted.

Point being, of course, that I pay for the hardware (as I do for the iPhone). I don't see that, in addition to that, Apple is entitled to a 30% cut of every app I buy -- meaning, I'm paying 30% more than I should, never mind I already paid an absurd price for the iPhone itself.

Thought experiment: imagine if at WWDC on Monday, Apple announced they had secretly pushed a mandatory update, already installed behind your back, that somehow forced you to buy any apps from the Mac app store, essentially turning your computer into a glorified iPad. How long do you think the Mac would survive? My guess is -- not for long.

EDIT: and by the way, they do charge developers for the privilege of developing for their ecosystem -- $99/year, to be precise. Maybe you think that's low -- but then again, Apple willingly chose that price.

 

[az431]

Well Phil (can’t innovate anymore my ass) Schiller, WHAT IS A READER APP? Define what a “reader” app is in English. I mean an email app seems like the perfect example of a reader app compared to Netflix since you can.. you know actually read emails!

I hope the EU slams them for this. A multi billion dollar corporation can certainly afford to clarify and enforce policies equally.

So why is Netflix, Spotify, etc on the App Store then? Explain that one Phil!

Guideline 3.1.3 does define reader apps "in English" as: magazines, newspapers, books, audio, music, video, access to professional databases, VOIP, cloud storage, or approved services such as classroom management apps.

Take the time to actually read and learn before spouting off.
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But you can create, and share playlists in Spotify. Does Apple (or Phil) clearly define what is and what is not a “reader” app? Otherwise they are just picking and choosing here.

Yes it is clearly defined. Does anyone read anymore?
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I've bought a bunch of apps on my Mac and Apple took a $0 cut from them (evidently I didn't buy them from the app store). Last I heard, Apple was profitable before 2008 when the 30% cut was instituted.

Point being, of course, that I pay for the hardware (as I do for the iPhone). I don't see that, in addition to that, Apple is entitled to a 30% cut of every app I buy -- meaning, I'm paying 30% more than I should, never mind I already paid an absurd price for the iPhone itself.

Thought experiment: imagine if at WWDC on Monday, Apple announced they had secretly pushed a mandatory update, already installed behind your back, that somehow forced you to buy any apps from the Mac app store, essentially turning your computer into a glorified iPad. How long do you think the Mac would survive? My guess is -- not for long.

This is among the most ridiculous things I've ever read. Do you also complain that you pay more for groceries than you should because the grocery store pays for rent?

 

[sub150]

As one whose job is to design/deploy/maintain large scale data center infrastructure, it is by no means a fixed cost. During peak app download times (usually Christmas time to new years) and as demand trends up and down throughout the year, Apple is spinning up and spinning down cloud infrastructure to match demand and save money when possible. Those costs are a function not just of the number of apps in the app store but also the number of active devices around the world, as the number of devices grow so does the demands on the infrastructure.

Also few folks seem to be mentioning the human cost of the app store. I don't know how many people Apple employs on the App review teams, the Xcode Development teams, or on other of the various teams (legal, phone support, etc.) to that work to support the App store, but let's say it's 5,000 people (out of the over 139,000 employees they have) and guessing a fully loaded salary of $300K (salary + benefits + insurance, this is probably a conservative number for California) that's ~$1.5B a year just in human costs.

Not saying Apple still isn't making a lot of money off the App store it's hard to know how much for sure without seeing the real internal numbers, but I think there is a lot more cost that goes in to it than most people think yet that doesn't stop them from judging how much is too much of a fee to charge developers (who by and large seem fine with it).

At Apple's scale it's a fixed cost. Variable cost is processing CC payments.

If you have 1000 apps that cost $10 each, and you sell 1M in a week vs 2M in a week, your CC processing fees will double. Your infrastructure cost may go up? They aren't going to double.

Let me tell you, 30% is plently. Ebay makes due at 10%. Shopify, Etsy, Patreon, etc...about the same business and all <10% cut. Apple is at 30%......

 

[acidblood]

Guideline 3.1.3 does define reader apps "in English" as: magazines, newspapers, books, audio, music, video, access to professional databases, VOIP, cloud storage, or approved services such as classroom management apps.

Take the time to actually read and learn before spouting off.
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Yes it is clearly defined. Does anyone read anymore?
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This is among the most ridiculous things I've ever read. Do you also complain that you pay more for groceries than you should because the grocery store pays for rent?

Did you actually read what I wrote? If you did then please point out to me how much money Apple ever made from my Mac software purchases (hint: it's in the post, $0, and it's always worked out fine for them.)

 

[az431]

Imagine if Microsoft announced Windows would no longer run apps that don’t come from the included store and they would be taking 30% of all sales.

Would these same people be defending them?

There really isn’t a difference in a computer that you carry in your pocket and a laptop/desktop.

Yes they would.

 

[garylapointe]

Most people prefer Android to iOS.

So you're saying MOST people have actually tried iOS? I find that hard to believe. To be clear, I mean actually use it for multiple hours or days, not touch a friend's phone with an unfamiliar interface for 10 minutes.

I think there are a lot of people who use Android because it came on a cheap Android device, not because they prefer it.

I know a lot of parents who buy cheap Android tablets for their kids and I can't think of any who have ever said to me that Android OS is preferable to iOS, they mostly like the price better.

 

[az431]

Apple's raising a giant middle finger to devs a week before they are about to court them to develop for their platforms.

If the ARM Mac is a Crap Store-only product like the iToys it's DOA.

Hey is the only developer who received a well-deserved middle finger.

 

[Naaaaak]

If Hey doesn’t like the terms, they can go elsewhere. You don’t go to another person’s house and dictate what you and others will do.

Hey wants to benefit from Apple’s infrastructure without cost or responsibility. Apple is within their rights to tell Hey to go pound sand.

Yes. Let's pretend only Apple made the iToys the success they are.

This comment exhibits very little understanding about the hell devs go through to bring anything through the Crap Store. And the hell they face year-over-year to keep it updated when Apple always breaks everything.

Uninstall all useful 3rd party software from your iToy. Under King Schiller's policies, the future of the Crap Store is:

• Worthless shovelware and bad Electron ports (little value, easy to build).
• Corporate spyware/adware from the Googles and Facebooks who can stomach the dev costs / difficulty to get your data.

 

[az431]

Most people prefer Android to iOS.

So what?

 

[Rogifan]

So Schiller thinks Hey’s app is a poor customer experience but not Netflix or Kindle? Nowhere in the Kindle app does it say how/where you can buy a book. Seems like a double standard to me.

 

[az431]

Yes. Let's pretend only Apple made the iToys the success they are.

This comment exhibits very little understanding about the hell devs go through to bring anything through the Crap Store. And the hell they face year-over-year to keep it updated when Apple always breaks everything.

Uninstall all useful 3rd party software from your iToy. Under King Schiller's policies, the future of the Crap Store is:

• Worthless shovelware and bad Electron ports (little value, easy to build).
• Corporate spyware/adware from the Googles and Facebooks who can stomach the dev costs / difficulty to get your data.

Because none of that kind of software would be sold on a third-party app store? Sound crazy somewhere else.

 

[Rigby]

Hey is a free download, but it's a revenue stream for Hey. And since it's free on the App Store, Apple makes nothing, and Hey reaps the benefits.

Of course Apple "makes something". The iPhone wouldn't be the seller that it is today without a rich selection of 3rd party apps. They didn't open the app store for altruistic reasons. They also charge every developer $100/year for the privilege of developing apps for their devices.

I don't really understand why some people argue against their own interests on behalf of a super-rich megacorp. Would you really be happy if there were no more free apps and you had to pay an additional 30% for services you subscribe to so you can use them on your $1000 phone?

 

[jimbobb24]

Can they just charge 130$ in the app?

 

[Naaaaak]

Hey is the only developer who received a well-deserved middle finger.

Rogue Amoeba says otherwise.

Panic says otherwise.

Both are well-known devs that don't build crap and went through Crap Store hell.

Tons of other devs say otherwise.

Hey is not a one-off case. Most users haven't heard of these problems and have NO IDEA the crap devs deal with to get something through the App Store behind the scenes.

 

[Rogifan]

Guideline 3.1.3 does define reader apps "in English" as: magazines, newspapers, books, audio, music, video, access to professional databases, VOIP, cloud storage, or approved services such as classroom management apps.

Take the time to actually read and learn before spouting off.

This is among the most ridiculous things I've ever read. Do you also complain that you pay more for groceries than you should because the grocery store pays for rent?

So are the only “approved services” classroom management apps? Or does Apple get to define what an approved service is on an ad-hoc basis? The Hey developer claims there are other apps on the App Store similar to Hey without offering IAP. Are they lying about that?

 

[dogslobber]

Phill is nothing more than a Schill. Perhaps if he banned Spotify and Netflix then his response wouldn't be so cowardly.

 

[bluecoast]

Whatever Apple says, we all know this is more about boosting their services revenue then anything else - they’re being disingenuous.

I remember when the App Store was basically a loss leader to help sell its hardware. Then 2-3 years ago the emphasis started to change to making money on services.

I don’t doubt that the App Store has been amazing. I’m thankful that apps don’t have malware in them etc etc.

However, the Apple Pay IPP should be optional. It should be there to help the little guys who don’t have the resources to process payments.

it shouldn’t be there to ensure that Apple meets their quarterly numbers.

Let web first companies like Basecamp process their own payments via the web if they have the ability.

And Basecamp make a good point. They say that they don’t want or need the promotion that the App Store offers. They say they’ll pay the cost of reviewing their app. That they just want users to be able to install their app on iOS/iPadOS. They don’t want Apple’s ‘help’.

Whatever Apple says, it reminds me too much of the same arguments that Microsoft made when it moved to crush Netscape.

I think that the same fate will happen to Apple if they continue to walk down this path.

And it took Microsoft about 15 years to recover their reputation.

 

[garylapointe]

Let me tell you, 30% is plently. Ebay makes due at 10%. Shopify, Etsy, Patreon, etc...about the same business and all <10% cut. Apple is at 30%......

Plus $2.9% for transaction fees (plus 30 cents). 35 cents per listing after the first 50 free listings. 12% in some categories. Does ebay make money when you buying postage though them?

ebay has ways for you to pay more and make your listings more attractive than other sellers (not a very level playing field). There are also fees if you want to open a store.

Etsy has always seemed dirt cheap though (5%, right?).

 

[smulji]

I think it’s time for Schiller to retire.

Why? Thanks to him the Mac is witnessing a revival. He's done a lot of good things.

 

[Rogifan]

Hey is a free download, but it's a revenue stream for Hey. And since it's free on the App Store, Apple makes nothing, and Hey reaps the benefits. That's dumb. I am not on Hey's side.

The only sketchy thing is Apple letting bigger companies (Netflix) get away with doing the same thing, except it makes sense from a corporate politics standpoint because tons of people would be pissed if Netflix pulled their iOS app in protest, and no one would care if Hey went away.

What about all the free apps that have ads? Most of the apps on my phone are “free”. There’s a few games where I paid to remove apps (which Apple would get a cut of) but I have weather, sleep tracking, social media, podcast, streaming music apps that I use every day and they were all free downloads. If this was really about what you say then no app would be allowed to be free or free with ads on the App Store.

 

[I7guy]

Apple's raising a giant middle finger to devs a week before they are about to court them to develop for their platforms.

If the ARM Mac is a Crap Store-only product like the iToys it's DOA.

Apple does it's homework and has shown the naysayers, for the most part, wrong almost everytime in the last 10 years. With thousands of devs, it's a good possibility the vocal minority may make it seem like "apple raised a giant middle finger" to the entire dev world...but that's rarely the way it works.

 

[smulji]

Correct, you can only view Office documents. You need a Microsoft 365 subscription to edit documents.
Are they required to offer IAP in order to be in the App Store? Regardless, guarantee you they’re not paying 30%.

Subscription-based apps only pay 30% for the first year. Thereafter they're 15%.

 

[acidblood]

Another way to look at this situation:

Apple sells hardware at their own stores as well as other retail stores. They would presumably make more profit by selling the hardware at their own stores, so why do they sell at other retail stores? It is because they see the value in, and are willing to pay the cost for, the additional distribution channels.

In the case of the software, the developer has a direct relationship with Apple, so there are no other expenses besides the 30%. This is reasonable when you compare it to traditional manufacturer - distributor - broker - retailer setups.

Say the "Made for iPhone" licensing agreement forced you to sell your hardware through Apple stores only. Does that seem reasonable? Yet that's exactly what happens with iPhone apps.

 

[TonnyM]

So they want to take advantage of Apple’s ecosystem, the most successful and profitable app platform in the world that Apple created and maintains, but they don’t want to contribute in any way. The ‘fairnes‘ argument is ridiculous, because Apple is not a charity and their App Store brings more money to developers than any other platform on our planet. Why not go further and order Apple to sell hardware with zero margins ? Isn’t ‘unfair’ that they put 30-40% over everything they sale ? Apple, do the right thing ! Make all of your hardware 30% cheaper, you’ll be rich anyway, don’t be greedy!

 

[acidblood]

Many users don’t want to pay someone else. The in-app payment processing brings people with already verified payment info together with developers. Most people don’t want to give their personal info over to yet another random company with questionable security practices. It’s a security risk, every time you give your info to someone else.

Also, Apple is providing marketing for you by having your app listed in the store where people can easily find it.

If this was such a sweet deal as you make it to be, Apple wouldn't have to force this down everyone's throat, would they? Just give people the option to run apps without going through the app store, and people would be able to choose: if they like the supposed security of the app store, pay 43% more for your apps (that's not a typo: the developer has to charge 43% more to get the same after Apple's 30% cut). Apple won't give people this option because they know exactly what would happen.