Phil Schiller: Apple Will Not Change Decision on 'Hey' Email App, No App Store Rule Updates Imminent

[boss.king]

Just put the 30% premium on the IAP price, same as Spotify did, same as DownDog did - sell cheaper through your own site. People who know about this mechanism, will go to your site. Ones that don’t will buy IAP or go somewhere else.

I recommend listening to the interview he did with the Verge today. He explains why he could do that but is choosing not to. Obviously, he's also spinning it to help his own argument, but he makes (what I believe are) very valid points even if he does so a bit overdramatically.\

EDIT: Link to read/listen to the interview for anyone who's interested.

Apple’s App Store fees are “highway robbery,” says House Antitrust Committee chair

Less than a week before WWDC, all hell is breaking loose in Apple’s developer relations.

www.theverge.com

 

[bwillwall]

Every big tech company is LITERALLY begging to be regulated. I thought Apple was smarter than this.

 

[Rogifan]

Just put the 30% premium on the IAP price, same as Spotify did, same as DownDog did - sell cheaper through your own site. People who know about this mechanism, will go to your site. Ones that don’t will buy IAP or go somewhere else.

But Spotify isn’t doing it anymore for new customers. I‘d agree with this if Apple allowed non-Apple payment options in app but they don’t. How many people paid 30% more for Spotify only because they didn’t know there was another way to sign up?

 

[boss.king]

The basecamp app does not meet the requirements for approval. Basecamp is trying to bully Apple into doing what it wants.

I don’t believe Basecamp’s argument is reasonable.

Then why did the app get approved just days before?

 

[Cubsfan]

It's an email app. It's literally no different than the gmail app.

isn’t the difference that gmail has a free tier? I think that’s exactly what he says. “One way that Hay could have gone, Schiller says, is to offer a free or paid version of the app with basic email reading features on the ‌App Store‌ then separately offered an upgraded email service that worked with the Hey app on iOS on its own website.”

As far as I know there is no free tier for Hey.

 

[I7guy]

Those were Phil Schiller's own words describing the experience with apps that do not allow in-app sign-ups. That applies to Netflix as well. I'm just trying to see how far the logic will bend.

Netflix could have IAP, it's that they didn't want to. So I don't think it's ideal, but that is apples' rules. However, nobody could mistake netflix, prime for anything other than consumption. Different than email, where the value is creation.

 

[boss.king]

Netflix could have IAP

But it doesn't. You download the app and are presented with the exact same weird experience where they have to pretend the internet doesn't exist and they can't help you figure out where to go. How is that any better? I still can't get into the app, no matter what Apple classifies it as.

If Apple's going to get on a high horse about defending the user experience then actually do it. Make rules clear and apply them equally to all developers.

 

[s66]

The EU and US Congress should investigate Apple for extorting 30% from developers.....

Then they should also investigate any brick and mortar store for extorting a margin from the manufacturers of the goods they sell.
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Without reading the definition of a reader app, it's funny that a e-mail/messaging app doesn't qualify as a "reader" app.

So you never send an email ?

 

[I7guy]

But it doesn't. You download the app and are presented with the exact same weird experience where they have to pretend the internet doesn't exist and they can't help you figure out where to go. How is that any better? I still can't get into the app, no matter what Apple classifies it as.

If Apple's going to get on a high horse about defending the user experience then actually do it. Make rules clear and apply them equally to all developers.

I don't agree the app has a weird experience. The attached is on netflix's site. I signed up for netflix on my browser, downloaded the app, signed in and was ready to go. Maybe for some the interface is an issue. My non-tech wife figured it out in 30 seconds without my help.

There definitely is component of YMMV here and with hundreds of millions of customers, use cases will always be varied.

 

[boss.king]

I don't agree the app has a weird experience. The attached is on netflix's site. I signed up for netflix on my browser, downloaded the app, signed in and was ready to go. Maybe for some the interface is an issue. My non-tech wife figured it out in 30 seconds without my help.

There definitely is component of YMMV here and with hundreds of millions of customers, use cases will always be varied.

You've missed the point. Phil is saying it's a bad experience to download an app and not be able to make an account right there in the app. That's his argument, not mine. If you download Netflix and hadn't first created an account online you'd be stuck. That's the exact same experience that Hey was offering and was approved (and arguably to a more tech-savvy audience) before Apple changed their mind. But Netflix is allowed to continue doing this, while Hey isn't.

 

[jdawgnoonan]

Developers aren’t victims no matter how hard you try and spin the top.

You are retorting against arguments I did not make in my previous post.

Moving the goal posts to fit your victimhood narrative does not change the fact that...

Basecamp engaged Apple without duress.

Basecamp created a developer account agreeing to all the terms therein.

Apple has the right to refuse service to a developer who fails to meet the conditions agreed to upon creation of the account, as well as conditions of app approval and rejection.

Basecamp agreed to terms that they have now shown they don’t want to abide by, while at the same time seeking to profit from the same service they are in violation of.

I don't give a **** about the developer. I as a user want the app, and I don't want to pay an extra 30%. I think the developer should be allowed to link to their own location for payment. If you don't trust that, fine pay the extra 30%. I am the customer, I paid 1200 for this damned phone, and I don't appreciate being denied software that I want BY APPLE.

 

[I7guy]

You've missed the point. Phil is saying it's a bad experience to download an app and not be able to make an account right there in the app. That's his argument, not mine. If you download Netflix and hadn't first created an account online you'd be stuck. That's the exact same experience that Hey was offering and was approved (and arguably to a more tech-savvy audience) before Apple changed their mind. But Netflix is allowed to continue doing this, while Hey isn't.

"You download the app and it doesn't work, that's not what we want on the store," says Schiller. This, he says, is why Apple requires in-app purchases to offer the same purchasing functionality as they would have elsewhere.

Except for me I downloaded the app and it worked. Saying that's not what we want, doesn't mean they are kicking out netflix. I get the point, with netflix is a non-issue due to the brand. However, the developer decided to play this their way as Schiller also points out. So now this has become a mushroom cloud and where it lands nobody knows.
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I don't give a **** about the developer. I as a user want the app, and I don't want to pay an extra 30%. I think the developer should be allowed to link to their own location for payment. If you don't trust that, fine pay the extra 30%. I am the customer, I paid 1200 for this damned phone, and I don't appreciate being denied software that I want BY APPLE.

Maybe write the same irate type letter to the developer for not playing by the rules.

 

[boss.king]

Except for me I downloaded the app and it worked.

Because you already made an account elsewhere, circumventing the need for IAP in the Netflix app. Exactly like what Hey was offering.

 

[Appleman3546]

Apple should allow browser downloads of apps...just like on their macs with many prompts to make sure the user wants to download it from a non-Apple source

 

[lukecaan]

If the Apple App store was open to other hardware it would perhaps make sense to charge this kind of cut, but every developer is already spending $150/year for their license, spending who knows how much for apple hardware to develop with, every single user of the app has bought an iPhone to even be able to download it too. Why on god's green earth does apple feel obliged to slap a 30% tax on all app subscriptions afterwards ... it's a joke. To then ban developers from mentioning that it's cheaper to subscribe directly is the nail in the coffin.

 

[aaronhead14]

This kind of hostility from Apple is what makes for a bad user experience for customers, not the app developers.

Apple’s 30% cash-grab is absurd, and it leads to developers creating unusable apps. I hate that I can’t buy movies in the Vudu app. I hate that I can’t buy Kindle books in the Kindle app. It’s unacceptable, and it’s all Apple’s fault. Their devices would be much more usable if they weren’t so greedy.

 

[jdphoto]

At Apple's scale it's a fixed cost. Variable cost is processing CC payments.

If you have 1000 apps that cost $10 each, and you sell 1M in a week vs 2M in a week, your CC processing fees will double. Your infrastructure cost may go up? They aren't going to double.

Let me tell you, 30% is plently. Ebay makes due at 10%. Shopify, Etsy, Patreon, etc...about the same business and all <10% cut. Apple is at 30%......

Just because a relationship isn’t linear doesn’t mean it is fixed. For my personal budget at home, even though my water bill is less than 1% of my income, I’d still never call it a fixed cost as it fluctuates month to month given my usage. Also regardless its variability has little to do with the magnitude of the cost.

Of those companies you list the closest is probably Ebay, they have a lot of employees and are mostly profitable (though they have some quarterly losses every now and then). Both Ebay and Apple roughly average about 20% Net Profit Margin, while that’s Apple overall (not just App Store) vs Ebay it shows were Apple is at overall which is somewhat helpful. Etsy and Patreon have less than a thousand employees from the data I can find, much less overhead in those operations to cover. Shopify has close to the number of employees I guessed support the App Store, but according to market data that company hasn’t turned an annual profit in the last five years (last year it shows a Net Income of -$120M)...so they maybe they need to start taking a higher cut?

 

[jdawgnoonan]

Except for me I downloaded the app and it worked. Saying that's not what we want, doesn't mean they are kicking out netflix. I get the point, with netflix is a non-issue due to the brand. However, the developer decided to play this their way as Schiller also points out. So now this has become a mushroom cloud and where it lands nobody knows.
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Maybe write the same irate type letter to the developer for not playing by the rules.

I was just playing irate because I believe that is where most users would stand who were interested in this app. More than likely the average user of this app would be aware that they could pay less elsewhere, true, but should they have to be aware of that? Long term, walled gardens and proprietary app stores are a losing proposition is my belief. I don't want a censor, a guardian, or a dictator for what I choose to do on a computer. The web is open, and hopefully one day standards and advances in technology will make proprietary apps a thing of the past.

 

[Rogifan]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1273799931614998529

I’m sure Apple execs are glad there is no in-person WWDC this year but don’t think they get how upset the developer community is. Of course if they show off an ARM Mac on Monday no one will be talking about the App Store anymore.

 

[ian87w]

*sigh

This is what I'm afraid of, Apple reaffirming their position. Now, many more apps and developers are probably scrutinized and potentially facing the same barrier, just because one attention seeking developer did a tweeter rant. In the end of the day, DHH probably won't be affected that much in real life and would still be living large. However, there are probably other developers that don't have as much resources as him.

 

[A.wang28]

for those that argue Netflix and Amazon got a free pass, and Dropbox being a "Reader" app is ridiculous, I thought Apple has already outlined what constitutes a "Reader" app clearly in their guideline?

Dropbox allows access to cloud storage - ✅
Netflix and Amazon allow access to video and books - ✅
Hey - ❌

Guideline 3.1.3(a) - Business - Payments - “Reader” Apps

Reader apps may allow users to access previously purchased content and content subscriptions. Your mail app is not one of the content types allowed under this guideline for “Reader” apps (specifically: magazines, newspapers, books, audio, music, video, access to professional databases, VOIP, cloud storage, or approved services such as classroom management apps). Therefore, customers must be given the option to purchase access to features or functionality in your app using in-app purchase.

Am I missing something?
Or are people having issues with their definition of a "Reader" app? I can probably understand that issue a bit more if that is the case...

 

[boss.king]

Am I missing something?
Or are people having issues with their definition of a "Reader" app? I can probably understand that issue a bit more if that is the case...

Can you explain how an email app doesn't fall under access to a professional database?

 

[I7guy]

Because you already made an account elsewhere, circumventing the need for IAP in the Netflix app. Exactly like what Hey was offering.

Except Hey wasn't classified as a "reader" app, since the primary purpose of email is reading, creating and uploading. One can't create and upload on Netflix.
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I was just playing irate because I believe that is where most users would stand who were interested in this app. More than likely the average user of this app would be aware that they could pay less elsewhere, true, but should they have to be aware of that? Long term, walled gardens and proprietary app stores are a losing proposition is my belief. I don't want a censor, a guardian, or a dictator for what I choose to do on a computer. The web is open, and hopefully one day standards and advances in technology will make proprietary apps a thing of the past.

I don't think the app store is a losing proposition in Apples' belief. They may not get everything right, but they are a smart company that does it's homework. And the app store, probably, according to Apple is their value add to the ecosystem. Not everyone may like it, and that's a personal choice. But where this lands, nobody yet knows.

 

[boss.king]

Except Hey wasn't classified as a "reader" app, since the primary purpose of email is reading, creating and uploading. One can't create and upload on Netflix.

"Access to a professional database" falls under reader apps. Is that not exactly what an email app does?

 

[I7guy]

"Access to a professional database" falls under reader apps. Is that not exactly what an email app does?

One could say that about all apps that communicate with a back-end server. Except some create content and some don't. The ones that create content, are they classified as reader apps?

edit: then there is this:

"Apple told me that its actual mistake was approving the app in the first place, when it didn't conform to its guidelines. Apple allows these kinds of client apps -- where you can't sign up, only sign in -- for business services but not consumer products. That's why Basecamp, which companies typically pay for, is allowed on the ‌App Store‌ when Hey, which users pay for, isn't. Anyone who purchased Hey from elsewhere could access it on iOS as usual, the company said, but the app must have a way for users to sign up and pay through Apple's infrastructure. That's how Apple supports and pays for its work on the platform."