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cmaier

Suspended
Jul 25, 2007
25,405
33,471
California
1. The whole idea that apps need to be approved by Apple is preposterous and should be rejected in the first place

2. Phil Schiller's "explanation" really isn't. It doesn't explain who got access to the MDM data. It then becomes a disclosure issue. I, as a parent, maybe Ok with the developer or some other third-party entity getting the MDM data for my children--or not. Let me make that decision.

3. So these apps have been in the App Store for *years*. Apple had approved them then. Now, just when Apple releases Screen Time, they aren't Ok any longer. Sorry, but to claim that the two facts are unrelated is not believable. Especially since Apple has a history of doing exactly that.

4. When somebody claims to be doing it "for the children" (usually that's politicians with nefarious intents) an alarm bell goes off in my head.

1) no it’s not. It’s the only reason iOS is safe to use and not a toxic cesspool like android
2) yes it is. You couldn’t “ok” these developers accessing “the MDM data” (which is actually all the data on your device) because they didn’t disclose and ask permission in the first place. You can make decisions for your children and apple can make decisions for their platform and App Store.
3) No, it wasn’t “just when apple releases screen time.” It was when they discovered that developers were misusing enterprise certificates (which is what MDM involves), starting with the Facebook fiasco.
4) *You* are the only one who claimed to be “doing if for the children.” Quote: “I, as a parent.... for my children - or not. Let me make that decision.”


Your post is technically uninformed, and shows no understanding of what MDM actually is, how it is intended to be used, or the actual facts of the situation (which include that many “competitors” to screentime were allowed to stay in the App Store, so long as they didn’t misuse enterprise certificates and MDM).
 
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realtuner

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Mar 8, 2019
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Playing devil’s advocate here, but what if those 2 companies actually were not trying to be malicious?

They abused MDM profiles/enterprise certificates. They don’t get to pretend they’re on the high moral ground here.

As they say, once a cheater always a cheater. You trust someone who cheats in one area to behave in another?
 

apolloa

Suspended
Oct 21, 2008
12,318
7,802
Time, because it rules EVERYTHING!
So, you don’t want to discuss the technical side and just believe anything you’re told? How can you accept something as true without a basic understanding of how things work so you can determine if they’re actually telling the truth? Especially about Apple?

The NYT is supposed to be credible. But as this very thread proves, they twisted things around to make a sensational hit piece. This is very common with Apple, so EVERY report about Apple needs to be scrutinized to separate fact from sensationalism.

Further, do you even consider “time” in your assessments (which I mentioned in my first reply)? As in, are you not aware of all the things that have changed in iOS over the years that make what that article claimed highly unlikely? Or do you want to live in the past?

I know enough thanks and I don’t blindly buy into everything Apple does as great.
You’ve also lost all my respect by dis-crediting the reporting and journalistic skills of this sites sister site.... obviously not reading the interview. And somehow you expect us to believe you know better? Yeah right..
 

Kabeyun

macrumors 68040
Mar 27, 2004
3,412
6,350
Eastern USA
Well, my job isn’t journalism. I’m not being paid to inform the public.
Not saying you are. Just saying that when you put “journalists” in quotes and accuse all reporters of bias who work at one of the biggest, most-read, most award-winning dailys, it’s pretty obvious where the real bias lies.
 
Last edited:

cfurlin

Suspended
Jun 14, 2011
396
770
Most "journalists" these days have the article written already (or at least a concept of it in their heads) before doing much fact-checking and investigating.

Then, a stock-photo is added and some selective quotes to make them fit the headline.

You just described Medium.com to a 'T'.
 
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ipponrg

macrumors 68020
Oct 15, 2008
2,309
2,087
They abused MDM profiles/enterprise certificates. They don’t get to pretend they’re on the high moral ground here.

As they say, once a cheater always a cheater. You trust someone who cheats in one area to behave in another?

But these apps have been in the market place for a while. Shouldn’t Apple do a better job screening apps like these? Shouldn’t Apple work with the developers to explicitly identify where their root problems are?
 

DaveOP

macrumors 68000
May 29, 2011
1,575
2,322
Portland, OR
I’m no expert, but am I the only one who thinks MDM almost sounds like a malware or a virus or at least similar in some ways to what a malware or virus could do?????

MDM is used in Enterprise for compliance and monitoring. I work in MDM, in a field with extremely tight regulation. It's not that we want to disable things like iMessage or other features, it's what we HAVE to by law. Years back, you couldn't use iPhones in my industry because iMessage was not archivable. At least with MDM, we can disable iMessage and let our users have iPhones and text via SMS. It's a necessary evil.
 

coolbreeze

macrumors 68000
Jan 20, 2003
1,809
1,554
UT
Unfortunately the New York Times article you reference did not share our complete statement, nor explain the risks to children had Apple not acted on their behalf.

Honestly this kind of irks me at the NYT. How do you write an article on something like this and leave out part of the companies statement that at best exonerates them and at worst at least explains their actions. The NYT is supposed to have journalistic integrity. Way to feed fuel to "someones" fire. I'd support a complete ban from the App Store when any app can access my kids location without permission.
NYT not being forthcoming and honest? Well I'LL BE! Shocking, I tell ya.
 

cmaier

Suspended
Jul 25, 2007
25,405
33,471
California
But these apps have been in the market place for a while. Shouldn’t Apple do a better job screening apps like these? Shouldn’t Apple work with the developers to explicitly identify where their root problems are?
Yes.

They should. But if an app isn’t caught by apple, and they catch it later, does that mean they should let it stay, no matter what it’s up to?

These are two issues.

Apps that use MDM without disclosing it and without the user being in full control of the MDM need to go.
 

Kevbasscat

macrumors 6502
Oct 10, 2016
255
179
Banning, CA 92220
This seems like an convenient excuse by Apple to limit competition. So let me understand this; apple believes MDM is appropriate for corporations to control phones they own but provides too much access and control for parents over their children's phone. Nonsense! Parents should have unfettered access to control their children's phones however they like, including taking them away altogether if they deem it appropriate. This is just a BS excuse by Apple.

If I wanted to argue, I'd take this statement. "This seems like an convenient excuse by Apple to limit competition." Wtf? Apple's app is FREE! They make 15-30% revenue from the devs they booted, so you have no argument silly. They're LOSING money, not gaining. It's is certainly not anticompetitive.

Now, ask yourselves, did either of those statements help solve this issue? No.

I believe parents "must" have control of their children's phones. It's critical in today's wide open internet that they know what their children view, who they interact with etc and have control over that. That said, I do not believe allowing MDM technology into the hands of any dev for this use is wise, as it breaks basic human rights, privacy laws. Apple would be liable for their actions as it certifies and sells these apps to the public, and unless they put in place, a certification and bond process or the equivalent of a secret clearance, which is ridiculous, how do you trust just any dev? I believe Apple should give this ability directly to parents ONLY, and have complete transparency of their processes so that any criticism of them breaking their own rules, for monetary gain while disallowing it by devs is accounted for and justified. Say by only keeping the MDM data a very short period of time, then destroying it, and also via an encryption method or some other user only access method, that prevents Apple from actually viewing or collecting it.

There is clearly a need for parental controls, but it doesn't need to viewed by Apple, nor any personal data taken by Apple for marketing or target audience gain. Apple can make the data anonymous to Apple. There are ways to protect privacy and protect children that can have transparency. An open audit, with the report published by the auditing authority is just one way.

What I am reading from these posts are just accusations and petty bickering, and to those who have to stoop so low as to the "its-it's" typo, grow up. You're not doing anything to solve the real issue. This is a huge concern for parents, and all you care about it is your agenda. Instead why don't we participate in "solving this issue" in a manner that puts the parents needs first while keeping this technology from anyone who would use it for their own gain or perversion. Apple has in place right now technology that would prevent them from collecting personal data for marketing purposes or targeting.

The real issue, is the right for parents to have control, and for no one else to have that information but those parents. Apple and no other company on earth is perfect, and tbh, you're all on here because Apple is by most accounts the safer bet. There is no harm in criticism, as long as emotion and personal ego/agenda aren't your primary goals. There is no proof Apple is using MDM for any public data collection, so let's leave that argument out please. It's misdirection at best. If you believe Apple has such bad intentions, go trust your privacy with Google, then come back and make that argument. Humans and corporations are not perfect, we are inherently selfish. It's our nature Privacy is going to always be something Apple will strive for, but probably never truly attain if we're honest with ourselves. You expecting them to be perfect in an imperfect world is nonsense. At least they're making a real effort. Who else is doing as much, and if you can do it better, show us. Talk is cheap, effort, and action count.
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You should scrutinize everything you read these days, as everything seems to be agenda driven. It'd be awesome to have simple information reporting sources, but that's boring and doesn't generate as many hits as sensational and biased reporting does. The reality tv mob doesn't care for factual anything, just tell them what they need to think and point them at anyone who doesn't share the same viewpoint. Those people called "influencers" also count on the same ignorance of their viewers.


This is precisely why I turned my tv off. Then again, I participate in this forum so yes I am a hypocrite. If I'm gong to be dumbed down, I choose the forum, where I might actually learn something useful, not just become a sheep who buys whatever the digital babysitter spews without question. We all have spin. Having a great bulls**t detector is what most of us need to improve.
 
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philbga

macrumors newbie
Apr 29, 2019
2
0
The NYT article also makes reference to Freedom app – which NEVER USED MDM. The MDM issue is a complete smokescreen. Speaking of smoke, Apple's Screen Time is scarily analogous to when tobacco companies added filters to cigarettes. Assuages the masses, exacerbates the problem.
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I had a feeling there was more to this story. Seems like every time something like this comes up once we get the whole story it’s not nearly as bad as the original story portrayed, or just shows Apple was right to do what they did.

The "more to this story" is that the Freedom app which is mentioned in the article, did not use MDM, had nothing to do with parental control or controlling/accessing other devices, and was removed with no reason given.

Screen Time is like putting filters on cigarettes: it assuages the masses into thinking that something is being done, but ultimately leaves everyone more vulnerable and addicted.
 

ipponrg

macrumors 68020
Oct 15, 2008
2,309
2,087
Yes.

They should. But if an app isn’t caught by apple, and they catch it later, does that mean they should let it stay, no matter what it’s up to?

These are two issues.

Apps that use MDM without disclosing it and without the user being in full control of the MDM need to go.

Yes, you're right they need to go. But if Apple didn't do their due diligence in the first place to screen the apps, this is why there is all this noise. Some here laud Apple's behavior as a great move. What would be even better is if Apple screened the apps.

One might ask, "But how can they screen every app?" I'd argue, then what's the point of the app screening process? If an app was trying to access screen time, shouldn't this topic be under much more scrutiny before acceptance?
 
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philbga

macrumors newbie
Apr 29, 2019
2
0
Unfortunately the New York Times article you reference did not share our complete statement, nor explain the risks to children had Apple not acted on their behalf.

Honestly this kind of irks me at the NYT. How do you write an article on something like this and leave out part of the companies statement that at best exonerates them and at worst at least explains their actions. The NYT is supposed to have journalistic integrity. Way to feed fuel to "someones" fire. I'd support a complete ban from the App Store when any app can access my kids location without permission.

The Freedom app mentioned in the article never used MDM. It simply gave people the ability to control when they accessed certain content, so that they could be more focused, productive and engaged with life. When Apple removed it from the app store without clear reference to any technical issue, they were making a clear statement about consumer choice and how they want to control it.
 

man2525

macrumors newbie
May 3, 2004
11
0
Orlando, FL
Apple's own Screen Time has some great capabilities regarding what a person is allowed to do in app. I just wish Apple hadn't stopped the allowance feature. It had great potential to prevent people from in-app purchasing their way into bankruptcy.
 

barmann

macrumors 6502a
Oct 25, 2010
941
626
Germany
If I wanted to argue, I'd take this statement. "This seems like an convenient excuse by Apple to limit competition." Wtf? Apple's app is FREE! They make 15-30% revenue from the devs they booted, so you have no argument silly. They're LOSING money, not gaining. It's is certainly not anticompetitive.


A few things :

- Apple does monetize user data - to what degree is debatable, but they do . And they never denied doing it .

- Hence , controlling and/or owning apps with a subscribed user base makes you money .

- Corporations do not want competition; it's the single worst enemy for them . That's why iOS, OSX and the App store are locked down , not user experience or safety or nonsense like that , it's about controlling as big a part of the market as possible .
 

macfacts

macrumors 601
Oct 7, 2012
4,722
5,553
Cybertron
1) no it’s not. It’s the only reason iOS is safe to use and not a toxic cesspool like android
...

Except the mac isn't a "toxic cesspool" like android. So having an app approval process is not needed to make a safe environment. Try again.
 

Sciomar

macrumors 6502a
Nov 8, 2017
559
1,737
- Corporations do not want competition; it's the single worst enemy for them . That's why iOS, OSX and the App store are locked down , not user experience or safety or nonsense like that , it's about controlling as big a part of the market as possible .

iOS used to not be so locked down, I had web apps on my original iPhone. There was a lot of bad stuff out there that people were able to put on their devices back then, and Apple made the choice to lock down the OS and have an App store gateway. It was early enough in the smart phone scene that people could switch to Android and not have invested much into the ecosystem. Now we're at the point where the mob ( a small one at that) is hoping to yell/cry Apple into unlocking their OS, hopefully intelligence prevails and they never do that.
 

Kevbasscat

macrumors 6502
Oct 10, 2016
255
179
Banning, CA 92220
Yes, you're right they need to go. But if Apple didn't do their due diligence in the first place to screen the apps, this is why there is all this noise. Some here laud Apple's behavior as a great move. What would be even better is if Apple screened the apps.

One might ask, "But how can they screen every app?" I'd argue, then what's the point of the app screening process? If an app was trying to access screen time, shouldn't this topic be under much more scrutiny before acceptance?

Apple has the recourses to completely inspect every app. They're not the richest corp for nothing. They are greedy though and have been slow to be diligent. I hope this wakes them up.
 

germinator

macrumors 6502
Apr 22, 2009
260
199
1) no it’s not. It’s the only reason iOS is safe to use and not a toxic cesspool like android

So, is macOS a toxic cesspool? Do you think users cannot distinguish between good and bad apps? I don't need Apple's nanny to tell me which apps I can trust and which I cannot.


3) No, it wasn’t “just when apple releases screen time.” It was when they discovered that developers were misusing enterprise certificates (which is what MDM involves), starting with the Facebook fiasco.

It isn't clear that developers were "abusing" enterprise certificates. They were using them for a somewhat different purpose. That is not necessarily "misuse".
Apple knew for years that they were doing that, and yet they allowed them in the app store.

4) *You* are the only one who claimed to be “doing if for the children.” Quote: “I, as a parent.... for my children - or not. Let me make that decision.”

Quote from Phil Schiller's email (emphasis mine): "Unfortunately the New York Times article you reference did not share our complete statement, nor explain the risks to children had Apple not acted on their behalf."
 

Sciomar

macrumors 6502a
Nov 8, 2017
559
1,737
So, is macOS a toxic cesspool? Do you think users cannot distinguish between good and bad apps? I don't need Apple's nanny to tell me which apps I can trust and which I cannot.

Quote from Phil Schiller's email (emphasis mine): "Unfortunately the New York Times article you reference did not share our complete statement, nor explain the risks to children had Apple not acted on their behalf."

Users cannot always differentiate between good or bad apps, not everyone is as clever as we macrumor forumites. I am glad there is a service to block out the apps that run similar to payday loans and phone scammers, gotta protect the gullible. They leave just enough room for some of the less than good apps to get in, like the ones with excessive subscription charges, though I wish they'd pull those as well.

Good on them for protecting the littles, watching other parents these days, it's obvious someone has to. Today's parenting involves throwing a screen at the little annoying thing as soon as it wakes up or makes noises, heaven forbid we have to listen to them or actively instill values and knowledge.

My trust towards tech industry is very limited these days, android in its current state will never get it, Apple is the best current option in my opinion, and the companies misusing MDM certs certainly do not get that trust. Shame on parents willingly loading MDM certs on their child's devices, knowing or not checking into the extent to what can be done with those certs.
 

I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
34,228
23,971
Gotta be in it to win it
"Thank you for being a fan of Apple and for your email......."

No company should treat their customers as "fans"; that implies a level of arrogance that the people that pay money for products are simple "fans" (you can substitute fanboi and it still makes sense) that will still stick through the company's decisions, good or bad, with the blind abandonment of a "fan" as opposed to someone who can make an informed decision.
You over-thought the response from Phil. That a customer got an explanatory email from an senior exec from any company is actually pretty spectacular.
 

stottmj

macrumors newbie
Aug 9, 2010
16
4
As someone who actually manages MDM in the Enterprise. It definitely provides a viable solution for parents. Yes, it can collect a lot of detail. But at least you can lock things down such as creating a WiFi profile and enforcing DNS that the user cannot change nor bypass. That allows you to restrict access to naughty websites, etc.

The Internet has some extremely dark places and there are a lot of dangerous predators targeting children. It’s about a whole lot more than screen time.

The problem here seems to be that these companies managed the MDM and not their customers. Their app communicated with the MDM to configure things. But the company still had control of these devices just like any enterprise MDM provider. Thus installing an MDM profile on the kids devices gave those companies godlike privileges to a lot of privacy and tracking data. So I agree with Apple that it’s risky.

At the same time an MDM solution would be ideal. I know of a business that issues devices to employees but also family members and they use the MDM to restrict the usage of those devices. They do this because you have to be a business or organization to use MDM alongside DEP. The company buys the devices preconfigured to be assigned to the company MDM. So out of the box they immediately phone home to the company MDM and self enroll. Complete zero-touch management of the device. Works for Macs too.

Unfortunately, MDM is far too complex for the average parent to configure. I would do this myself with my kids. But I have the skills to do it and I wouldn’t buy one of these parental control apps.

Apples parental controls and screentime leave a lot to be desired. Frankly, young kids shouldn’t have iPhones and only use iPads supervised. With MDM you can control things without it you cannot.
 

dallastigers

macrumors member
Jun 23, 2003
92
19
TX
Problem is Screen Time is still buggy. Adjusting time still allows time limits to be overridden, and multiple times with my kid’s devices that use “Shared Across Devices” setting some just start ignoring all of it including settings that fell under the prior “restrictions” setting. Just noticed today 2 of 3 devices have ignored all settings for 2 weeks while the 1 device I usually check from time to time hasn’t not and has followed settings. Sometimes restarting helps, but today that didn’t. I also changed settings on each device and after awhile they started to adhere to the settings, but it took awhile.

I guess I am going to have to set up each individually, but last time I switched this everything reset and had to key back in settings for various websites and time limits. This takes away the main advantage of adjusting it on the fly when device might not be near me. I wish you could at least export/import the websites and time limits.

Users cannot always differentiate between good or bad apps, not everyone is as clever as we macrumor forumites. I am glad there is a service to block out the apps that run similar to payday loans and phone scammers, gotta protect the gullible. They leave just enough room for some of the less than good apps to get in, like the ones with excessive subscription charges, though I wish they'd pull those as well.

Good on them for protecting the littles, watching other parents these days, it's obvious someone has to. Today's parenting involves throwing a screen at the little annoying thing as soon as it wakes up or makes noises, heaven forbid we have to listen to them or actively instill values and knowledge.

My trust towards tech industry is very limited these days, android in its current state will never get it, Apple is the best current option in my opinion, and the companies misusing MDM certs certainly do not get that trust. Shame on parents willingly loading MDM certs on their child's devices, knowing or not checking into the extent to what can be done with those certs.
 
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