Photo Mess Aperature IPhoto etc.

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by a4est42, Oct 7, 2013.

  1. a4est42 macrumors member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2009
    Location:
    CA
    #1
    First of all I have made lots of mistakes. And then I believe I have compounded them over time and I am now looking for some help. Please be kind-- i know I have been stupid and i know i need to make some changes.

    When I had a backup external hard drive fail I got very nervous and lost some images....I have done some professional work but mainly am an amateur photographer. i am also a genealogist so lots of old photo retouching, cemetery photos and lots of scanned documents to contend with. I think I lack some rudimentary understanding if how the various programs and devices work with each other and need a cookbook style solution.

    So here is what I have:


    • 2009 Macbook Pro 256GB HD maxed out
      Seagate external 1TB HD
      Carbonite ( but only backs up what is on MBP not external
      Aperture 3.0
      I did not upgrade to Snow leopard because of memory issues
      IPAD 3 with Photogenie which I love for most editing but then how to upload edited photos to MBP
      Issues with unreferenced files unable to find originals on MBP
      Multiple copies of photos
      Iphoto is not where I work should I?
      What should my work flow look like?
      I use Photo genie on vacation and then wish to upload to MBP

    What I need:

    • A systematic approach for dealing with new photos (start doing it right)
      To be able to organize all files so they are easy to find (fixing my messes)
      I am okay with how to organize into subjects-- folders --projects ( I think)
      I am not okay with where to store and how to access

    To add another layer to the conundrum
    i am ready to upgrade to a new IMACs or MacBook pro or Air and do not know which way to go. I prefer the touch pad to a mouse. i do not know how touch pads for desk tops compare. Since i now have na IPAD my laptop is essentially a desktop. So i guess I am asking for a suggestion for work flow and a suggestion for what to buy when i upgrade in the next few months. i would love to know thoughts on HD size and type. Where to locate masters. My tendency because of previous problems is to just upload to HD then import into Aperture--- but then what about Iphoto....Help?????

    i know there is not just one answer but would really appreciate different thoughts ideas etc.
     
  2. Designer Dale macrumors 68040

    Designer Dale

    Joined:
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    Folding space
    #2
    There have been a number of posts like this lately with folks maxing out and looking for a simplification of things. It can be done but I don't have the time right now.

    What you do need to do right now is free up some space on that HD. A maxed out drive is a recipe for disaster you don't want to know about. Go through it and dump everything that you really don't care about. Music you don't listen to, apps you never use, bad out of focus photos. Most of us can free up 50 gigs right there. That will give your system a bit of breathing room before you start your new organization.

    Others with more time will help with that.

    Later.

    Dale
     
  3. rjphoto macrumors 6502a

    rjphoto

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2005
    #3
    You could always have an new hard drive installed. A lot less than a new computer.

    And then get a blazing fast iMac with all the bells and whistles later...

    Have the best of both worlds...

    As for iPhoto vs. Aperture, Aperture is just iPhoto on steroids. You might also like LightRoom.

    I haven't made the jump to LightRoom yet, but I'm leaning toward it... I've got Version 4, but need to do some upgrades to my computer first.
     
  4. a4est42 thread starter macrumors member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2009
    Location:
    CA
    #4
    Thanks Dale,
    No music and i have dumped everything i can. I am a bit reluctant to off load all photos to an external drive without a backup of that drive as well. if you or anyone else can point me to other posts along this line I would appreciate it.
     
  5. rjphoto macrumors 6502a

    rjphoto

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2005
    #5
    Get another external, plug it in, format to the mac format and TimeMachine should launch. It will back up the whole drive.

    You could also use a program like Carbon Copy Clone, and make a bootable backup.
     
  6. Designer Dale macrumors 68040

    Designer Dale

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    #6
    OP:
    Is this right: You have an internal HD with all your files and an external with a backup of the internal. You use an on-line service to backup the HD as well?

    Aperture uses two kinds of files, Referenced and Managed*. With Referenced, you pick where they are and are responsible for telling Aperture where that is. In Managed, Aperture takes control of where files are stored and assumes responsibility for finding them. If something goes hooey with the link for a Referenced file, you have to tell aperture where it is.

    Sorry for the vocabulary lesson, but it will help you to get your answers.

    * To the best of my knowledge this is an either/or situation. You can't have Managed and Referenced fils at the same time.

    Dale
     
  7. flynz4 macrumors 68040

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2009
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    #7
    Yes, you can mix/match referenced/managed... but that will not simplify anything for the OP.

    OP: I suggest that you buy two inexpensive ebooks from photo.rwboyer.com which will set everything straight. The other option is to go to ApertureExpert.com and start watching the videos. They are also good. However, I would start with Robert Boyer's ebooks first. There are a few minor terminology changes (ex: Masters are now called Originals)... but the books are solid.

    One book is called "file management" and the other is "Organization"

    /Jim
     
  8. a4est42 thread starter macrumors member

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    Jul 16, 2009
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    #8
    Great idea.
    I will give that a whirl
     
  9. ChrisA macrumors G4

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    Jan 5, 2006
    Location:
    Redondo Beach, California
    #9
    Use Aperture. It is MUCH better at organizing and it can directly read iPhoto's library. Buy whatever new computer you like and create tthe new Aperture library on an external disk. You want MANAGED library were Aperture moves the files insdie the library. Buy a large external disk that will not be even 1/2 full. Don't use referenced files, yo can NEVER move them or they are lost. Just get one big disk and place the entire Aperture library on it. Buy a 4GB drive and if you outgrow that buy a RAID.

    Next attach another external disk and give the ENTIRE disk to Apple's Time machine. This disk needs to be at least 1.5X the size of all the data on the computer. I'd go with a 4GB drive. The bigger the better. Time Machine will keep old data files on the drive untill the drive is full, then it is forced to delete older versions of files it has many copies of.

    Import the images and asign keywords and other meta data like the location and date. This is a key step, invent a keyword system and WRITE DOWN the keywords you use and what they mean.

    Later creat smart folders that group photos by some criteria. Notice that some images will get sucked into multiple smart folders. That is OK. Aplerture still keeps only one physical copy of the file even if it is inside 10 folders.

    Periodically make a copy of the entire library to yet another external disk. You can use Aperture's built-in "vault" system as it as very fast and only writes changes. Rotate these to some off site location. For example keep a small fire safe at the office for off site backup disks and another at home.

    In the end you have one live copy, one Time machine copy and a pair of off site disks that you ping-pong swap.

    You might opt to use one less off site drive and add a cloud backup system.

    But organization is done by keywords and other meta data NOT by placing file in folders that method is very primitive and prone to loss of data because it depends on your memory.
     
  10. a4est42 thread starter macrumors member

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    CA
    #10
    okay this is pretty bad. I went to the website thought that looked familiar. Went to an old file drawer and i have a hard copy from back when I bought my original Aperture (1) so i guess I just need to re-read everything and start rebuilding my work flow.

    just thought someone might have some ideas as to how they handle as in
    • Download from camera into X
    • Edit in Y
    • Save as ....
    • Store on external or new HD

    until I go for a new Computer I am thinking of purchasing a second external drive. Put all Photos there and put in safe. (My insurance against catastrophic failure) Then off load as much as I can onto to External hd (also houses Time machine backups) And then figure out my new work flow methodology. (revist Boyers organization)

    The I need to decide what to buy to give me more resident storage for very large photo laden genealogy programs in my next computer purchase.

    So keep the suggestions coming i am really trying here to simplify my life without having the kind of problems I have had in the past with HD. failure. It may seem like overkill until you lose photos of your newborn grand daughter. Nd that's what happened 3 years ago....

    ----------

    AWESOME. This is exactly what i needed. Thank you so much. let me have a think on that and I may be back with a couple more questions.

    Do you typically import directly into the External HD within Aperture? And your point is well taken about key words vs file folders projects. So the key is to train yourself to be organized at each time you import files, CORRECT?
     
  11. a4est42 thread starter macrumors member

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    CA
    #11
    Follow Up Questions

    Is there any reason to use Iphoto in conjunction with Aperture?

    When I download to Ipad, until I get a new mac, how do I off load photos to MBP?

    Should I use Dropbox or other cloud storage?
     
  12. Jmhoey macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2013
    #12
    Never on a local disk

    As a professional photographer let me just say that no one, and I mean no one, keeps their libraries on their local drive. Get an external hard drive, one that is at lease three times the size of your present library size. Keep all Aperture images on there. Get an additional external to copy, not back up, the Aperture drive. Here is how I do it:

    Aperture drive: LaCie 4TB Thunderbolt
    Aperture Backup: LaCie 4TB Thunderbolt
    rMBP Backup: LaCie 4 TB Thunderbolt

    After every dump of new images into the Aperture library I copy the drive files to the Aperture Backup. I keep several versions/copies, so I can always go back at least two repositories should corruption occur. It has been my experience that scripts, backup programs or utilities, etc... Are prone to far more problems than a simple copy. If you're too lazy to drag a file or directory, well, you get what you get.

    Now, the question came up on whether you should, or why would you, use both Aprerture and iPhoto together? For me it's a little different. All of my iPhone and iPad images and videos go into iPhoto. Being a professional I really do not want to mix my business catalog with snapshots. iPhoto unfortunately has become my junk repository. For a normal user though I cannot see why you would want to use both. If you want to take some images around, simply export them to a folder on your desktop and from within Aperture create a new library, call it Travel or something like that. I call mine portable.

    I am an adamand opponent to cloud services for backups. For so many reasons. There is not a single one that is fully secure. Anyone who claims otherwise is just simply living a fantasy. I would not trust my 14,000 image catalog of money-making images to anyone but myself. Use drives. They are cheap these days. Also create a routine of manually running backups/copies. No system will work if the User drops the ball. And don't forget to do a test restore now and then. Don't wait until the last minute to find out you have corruption brewing.

    Lastly, if you're really serious about backing up your images, a small USB drive like a WD Passport big enough to house your images should be used to keep a copy off site, or somewhere other than home. Again, normal users really don't do this and don't have to worry about it, but for those of us who have careers based in images a house fire will destroy everything. Once a week I take a drive to a data rated firebox.

    And lastly again, I can't sign off without the inner tech bursting out of me. Get a UPS system. A real one. Not a $10 surge protector. It's worth the $250 to protect not just your hard drives but also your laptop. That charger won't stop a couple of mega joules. Trust me.
     
  13. flynz4 macrumors 68040

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    Location:
    Portland, OR
    #13
    If you have an old book from Aperture 1, then throw it away.

    /Jim
     
  14. Designer Dale macrumors 68040

    Designer Dale

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    Location:
    Folding space
    #14
    Toss the book and just read the Help file for Aperture.

    Regarding your list, no one here will recommend directly connecting your camera to your computer to load photos. Get a card reader and use it instead. Put the card in the reader and let Aperture load the photos. When it asks if you want to erase the photos or not, say no and format the card in the camera. Let Aperture manage the photos and the camera manage the format of the card. Each device understands these things best.

    Use one app for both storage and editing. Have Aperture import your iPhoto Library and set it to open when a card is detected by the computer. It will launch automatically and ask you to name the Project for your photos and give you some options that are easily explained by the Help file. If you shoot over several days, it will create different Projects for each date.

    The dude with the $1500 in Thunderbolt drives has a good plan for a pro, but I'm just an amateur and don't have that kind of cash for my hobbie. Most of us don't but wish we did. I have a $60 dock that holds two bare drives and connects to my laptop. One drive is my full backup and the other is dedicated to backing up my Aperture Library. Aperture will work best if your Library is on the internal drive unless you have Thunderbolt and an SSD external.

    Your current computer sounds like a bone stock '09 MBP. I have an '08 MBP upgraded to the max of 6 gigs of ram with a 128 gig SSD in the main bay and a 7200 rpm 750 gig HDD in the optical bay. Apps are on the SSD and files, including Aperture Library, are on the HDD. It's a sweet setup but not for the faint of heart to put together. Any new Mac will blow it out of the water. Go for one of the Fusion drive configurations when you upgrade and get at least 8 gigs of ram. 16 would be much better.

    Any new computer will give you at least four times the internal storage you have now.

    That's all for now.

    My External Drive Dock

    Dale
     
  15. swordio777 macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2013
    Location:
    Scotland, UK
    #15
    You mention that you had an external backup fail - is this the 1TB external seagate drive you listed? Or does the seagate drive just hold spill-over files that simply won't fit on your MacBook?
    I'll assume it's the latter because of the statement you made about Carbonite not backing up the seagate.

    Here's the cookbook approach you wanted:

    1) First things first - go out & buy 3 new 1TB external hard drives
    2) Download the free version of Superduper and make an exact clone of your internal drive to one of the new HDDs and a clone of your external seagate drive to the other.
    3) Put these backups somewhere safe & do not touch them again until you've completely cleaned up both your working drives.
    4) Attach & format the 3rd new external drive - name the drive "Photos".
    5) Create a top level folder on this new external drive called "Aperture Referenced Files", then USE APERTURE to relocate any referenced files on your internal drive into this folder on the external drive. This will clear up some much-needed space on your internal drive. DO NOT try to move these files manually - you will break the referenced links and just make things worse.
    The purpose of the top-level folder is so you remember NEVER to touch these files outside of aperture.
    6) USE APERTURE to copy any referenced files from your external seagate drive onto the new external drive as above. Keep any folder structures you currently use, but move these inside the "Aperture Referenced Files" folder you created earlier. At the end of this stage you should have consolidated most off your photographs onto the "Photos" external drive.
    7) If you still have photos on either your internal or your seagate drives, the referenced links from Aperture to these files have presumably been broken. Create another top-level folder on your Photos drive called "Broken Links" and move any remaining photos over to this folder manually. Once you've done this, ALL your photos should now be on the external Photos drive making the job easier to manage.
    8) At this stage, forget about photos for a while - Clean up both your internal drive and your external seagate as best you can. Empty your trash, and delete as much as possible from your downloads folder. Use an app such as "Tidy Up!" to search for any non-photo duplicate files that remain on your internal & seagate drives.
    9) Back to photos - Use Aperture to re-consolidate any lost links to referenced files. Once you've re-linked files, remember to move them from the "Broken Links" folder over to the "Aperture Referenced Files" folder. As before, USE APERTURE to move the files between folders - you don't want to break the links again immediately after recreating them. Do this with as many files as you can to try & minimise the number of photos that are not inside aperture.
    10) Once you've finished tidying everything up it's time to make new clones of each drive your using. If there's space on your seagate drive, you could move all your photos onto it, then use superduper to reclone your internal drive & seagate drive onto the 2 new drives that you've been keeping safe all this time. If there isn't space on the seagate to do this, buy ANOTHER external drive to backup your external Photos drive, then re-clone the seagate & internal drives onto the other 2.

    Apologies for the long post, but this should get you well on the way to regaining control of your files. It sounds like you're having a real problem with referenced files, so you may want to consider consolidating all your referenced files into a managed library. This could potentially save you future headaches.

    When it comes to importing new photos I would recommend using Managed files.
    If you prefer to use referenced then create a folder on your desktop & name it appropriately, copy the photos from your memory card into it then use aperture to import the referenced files. Once the files are imported, USE APERTURE to move this folder onto your external Photos drive, inside the "Aperture Referenced Files" folder and never touch it again.

    I know it will seem like a mountain to climb, but be patient and you will get there.

    Really hope that helps.
     
  16. a4est42 thread starter macrumors member

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    Jul 16, 2009
    Location:
    CA
    #16
    You folks are incredible

    To answer Swordio's question.
    The drive that failed was a smaller (250GB) Seafate Freeagent Go (I still have it)

    The cook book answer was just what I was looking for so I cannot thank you enough---although I am not ignoring all the solid advice give. I appreciate everyone taking the time to write and I do not mind long answers or even conflicting ones. :D

    I needed a way to climb out of the mess and you have all been so helpful. Like I said I have made mistakes and been stupid---its not like we set out to do this intentionally. But one mistake builds on top of another and sometimes there's just a hole in one's understanding.

    Having all the photos in one place is exactly what I want so this will work for me. I have a fire safe where back-ups can be kept and I really want to clean up my mess before adding a new computer to the mix.

    Let me digest all of this and I may be back with a couple more questions. If anyone else has a suggestion or question fore away. I always look at mistakes as the best teachers and if others can learn from my screw ups great. Thank you all. As my grandson would say totally awesome dude!
     
  17. Designer Dale macrumors 68040

    Designer Dale

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    #17
    Post #16 nails it. Do that and you will be on your way. X10 to that.

    As to fixing holes in understanding, this is the place to get that done. I speak from experience.

    Dale
     
  18. snberk103 macrumors 603

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2007
    Location:
    An Island in the Salish Sea
    #18
    This post is full of good advice. I will add a few thoughts that either add to it, or are a variation.

    In fact - I do keep my library on a local drive - but I have a Mac Pro with multiple drives inside. For an iMac with inadequate HDD storage, I would agree... move the library - the entire library - to a fast large external HDD. However, the backup drives can be cheap USBs. And get several of these. My backup strategy is run a script based backup nightly - SuperDuper! in my case but there are others. I rarely have issues with it, and when I do I simply make sure I resolve them before formatting my memory cards.

    My routine is:
    1) I don't format my memory card until I know the nightly backup has run successfully. This means I have the image on the card and in the library at a minimum.
    2) I run a nightly backup that clones the photo library to an external USB HDD.
    3) I rotate three external USB HDDs. One is is being used, second is stored in my safety deposit box, third one sits on shelf. One I rotate 1 => safety deposit box, 2 => shelf, 3 => goes into active use.

    The 3rd HDD allows me to go way back in case there was some corruption in the library database, that I was faithfully copying. It also means that if one of the backup HDDs fails I can swap it into the active rotation without interrupting the the cycle... I will always have one connected and in use, and one off-site. I can then wait a few days to replace the failed unit.

    I prefer the banks fire protection to my own. A fire safe is "fire resistant' not "fire proof". In a really bad house fire you will lose both your primary and backup HDDs. Even if the bank has a really bad fire, I will still have my primary backup - plus my shelved backup.

    I am a huge fan of a UPS. Have always had one, and have had very very few HDD failures (knock wood). It is not the spikes that bork the system, in my experience, but the dips. My UPS makes a little beep when it kicks in - it beeps once or twice a week during some seasons ... just a little single beep as it lets me know that it flattened out a wee-little-power-dip that plays havoc with a HDD writing operation.

    ====

    Simplify what you are doing. Instead of half-a-dozen tools, try to use just one or two primary applications. They may not do everything as well as you'd like but you will spend far less time trying to remember how to do things, and where you parked that image that was half done when you were interrupted.
     
  19. a4est42 thread starter macrumors member

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    Jul 16, 2009
    Location:
    CA
    #19
    Thanks to everyone yet again!

    And Dale you are right. This is a great place to learn.

    I cannot be very helpful for others in this venue but if anyone out there is interested in Genetic genealogy I wrote a beginner's Guide to genetic genealogy. Which I did to pay back the larger community of genealogists and others that had helped me. Pay it forward.

    http://tinyurl.com/geneticgenealogyguide


    Thank you all and do not feel as if you need to stop. the more the merrier i think it helps us all to have a strategy. When i decide what drives to purchase etc. I'll let you know. As for the fire safe perhaps a better option would be my daughter's a half mile away.

    Swordio: It does seem like a mountain to climb---but I hear the view is fantastic at the top! :p
     
  20. a4est42 thread starter macrumors member

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    Jul 16, 2009
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    CA
    #20
    Question about USB 2 versus USB3

    Taking all the good advice. A couple of follow up questions

    My current Laptop has USB2. Will external HDD that are USB3 work. I don't want to purchase 3 drives that won't work with a new computer.

    Also Is their any advantage disadvantages of the portable versus desktop HDD?

    And since my current HD is 256GB maxed out and there's probably only another 10 GB of photos on the external it seems 1T should last awhile.

    So I am going to take the advice to get a UPS system protector. And 3 Back up drives. It may put off the new computer awhile and thats okay while a get my house back in order.
     
  21. Designer Dale macrumors 68040

    Designer Dale

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    #21
    usb 3 is faster. A computer with usb3 can read a usb2 drive at usb2 speed but a system with usb2 can only read a usb3 drive at usb2 speed. Beyond that, usb is usb.

    Portable drives run off the low voltage supplied by the computer system bus. They are in essence battery powered and slower. desktop drives need a wall plug but are faster. In general desktop drives are more reliable because the power supply is more stable.

    I have 878 total gigs of drive space backed up to a 1T external. That is a total of about 400 gigs of actual data. It's plenty of breathing room.

    I was going to see what storage options new iMacs have, but the Apple Store is down for updates. New toys coming?

    Dale
     
  22. swordio777 macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2013
    Location:
    Scotland, UK
    #22
    Yes, they will work just fine. But as Designer Dale said above - they will only work at USB2 speeds as that is the fastest your computer will allow. My current iMac only has USB2, but I always buy USB3 drives so I can notice the speed improvement when I finally upgrade the iMac.

    For backups, no, there is no disadvantage. They are a little slower, but your backups are going to take hours anyway you'd be best to run them over night or while you're out. I make all my backups to portable HDDs and have never had a problem. Two recommendations though:
    1) you may want to buy a powered desktop HDD for your photos. Something like a WD Red is designed to be powered on 24/7, but a lot of other drives are not and can wear out quickly if they are permanently plugged in, and;
    2) Don't buy multiple identical drives from the same shop on the same day. While it's very unlikely, they could be from a bad batch in which case all of your new drives would be affected. Say you run all 3 of your backups every sunday, you don't want all 3 backup drives failing on the same day. Buy different drives from different manufacturers to try & minimise this possibility.

    Also, the reason I suggested a 1TB to back up your internal drive was purely for future-proofing. You can obviously use a smaller HDD for this purpose if you prefer.

    UPS is a great idea - power spikes/drops are one of the most common ways to damage HDDs, so the UPS will definitely help minimise this risk as well.

    Sounds like you're well on track!
     
  23. a4est42 thread starter macrumors member

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    Jul 16, 2009
    Location:
    CA
    #23
    Thanks Swordio and Dale!

    That helps. The Seagate I have is 1T is a desktop model. The WD Red you mentioned seems bare so I would need to buy a housing? Or i could just step down one level to a WD Black. Do the housings actually include UPS? They seem rather pricey if it's just a housing and power supply as compared to all in one?

    Is thumb drive SS storage any more reliable than HDD? I realize it in more expensive per MB. However for insurance it is small and easily stored. I could easily backup photo dumps onto a thumb drive and rotate those in between major backup. I shoot lots of photos eh. i shoot--- but there can be long periods inbetween.

    Also any recommendations on card readers or any decent one will do?

    i am sorry to ask so many questions but this is an investment not just in hardware but secure backup so I am just trying to come up with the best smart solution.

    I do like the suggestion of using different manufacturers or purchasing from different places.
     
  24. swordio777 macrumors 6502

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    Location:
    Scotland, UK
    #24
    Yes, the WD Red is a bare drive. The Red is specifically designed to be inserted into a NAS (Network Attached Storage) and left running 24/7.

    DO NOT substitute a WD Red for a WD Black - they are designed for completely different purposes.

    If you detach your Photos drive whenever it is not in use then the type of drive you use is less important. But if you intend to use the Photos drive like an extension to your internal drive (ie - it's turned on whenever your computer is turned on) then make sure you buy a drive that is capable of this.

    My previous external Photos drive was a Hitachi Desktop Touro Pro. This unit is a consumer grade product that was never designed to be used for long periods. I left it attached and turned on 24/7 and it died completely (following a catastrophic drive failure) after about 6 months.

    I don't know how you plan to use the drive, but evaluate your usage requirements then buy the right tool for the job. You said it yourself - this is an investment. If you expect the drive to get some heavy use then spending an extra $40 or $50 at the outset is definitely less hassle than dealing with a catastrophic drive failure in under a year.

    Nope - No bells or whistles.
    3.5" drive housings / caddys are just a way to connect your HDD to your computer, so you'll want the UPS as well.

    Mechanical HDD platters are generally more fragile than solid state drives. They're susceptible to knocks, magnetic fields, and other day-to-day occurances/mishaps that don't affect SSDs. However it's hard to say whether solid state is any more "reliable". A cheap SSD thumb drive will most likely be less reliable than a server-grade HDD platter.

    If you go for long periods between photographic shoots then just leave your photos on the memory card until after you've backed up your computer. In that instance your camera's CF / SD card will act as your temporary backup.
     
  25. a4est42 thread starter macrumors member

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    Jul 16, 2009
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    CA
    #25
    Typically I would have it plugged in all the time if i am using as a photo drive so going for the Red does make sense. Thanks again for your patience and expertise.
     

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