I was watching the Screensavers (on TechTV) earlier tonight, and they referred to this thread. Of course they got the story all wrong, but that's not the important part...
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Pioneer DVD+R/+RW Support
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Re: Re: Some Macs have DVD-RAM
They are, but Type 2's can be removed from their cartridge and (supposedly) read by a regular DVD-ROM drive. (Again - data only)
While we're talking about it - does anyone here use DVD-RAM's? I've got a G4 at work with one but it won't recognize the blank cartrige when I put it in. It just sits for a sec and then ejects it - no feedback on the sceen at all.
It one of the older, non tray style ones FWIW.
-Eric
[edit]: PS, before I ripped it out of my G4 DP 500, I tried using the one that came with it (a tray loading one) and it acted the same way, just spit the cartridge out. Both machines were running 10.2.5 at the time - I haven't tried OS 9 (don't even have it installed at work I don't think)
It one of the older, non tray style ones FWIW.
-Eric
[edit]: PS, before I ripped it out of my G4 DP 500, I tried using the one that came with it (a tray loading one) and it acted the same way, just spit the cartridge out. Both machines were running 10.2.5 at the time - I haven't tried OS 9 (don't even have it installed at work I don't think)
DVD-RAM != DVD
DVD-RAM is totally incompatable with about 90% of the DVD drives out there, DVD-Rom Drives included.
Only some drives made by Panasonic, Toshiba, and Hitachi will read DVD-RAM discs.
For some DVD specifics....
The later ( Type 2 ) discs can be removed from the caddy that they come in. This gives the user a disc that will physically fit in a drive. If you look at a DVD RAM disc out of the case, compared to a DVD disc, you will see that there are hash marks all over the DVD-RAM disc. This sector layout is predetermined, to allow for data allocation, and much higher performace for data storage. In some respects, this is close to the way a hard drive is layed out. While I have not looked into the specs of the format, I suspect that this layout is an attribute of a combination CAV and CLV spinout. This visualisation shows that even the very base format of DVD-RAM has no similarity to DVD. DVD has a sequential track that is pure CLV. DVD +R and -R follow this sector layout, matching the characteristics of DVD.
I may have jumped ahead here a little for those who are not sure what exactly CLV and CAV are.
CAV ( Constant Angular Velocity ) This techinque of reading a disc keeps a disc at a constant speed. As the laser moves towards the outer edge, the data thoughput increases, as the bits pass by the laser faster ( assuming that the bits always take the same amount of disc real-estate ). If the bit rate is required to remain constant, the bits consume more real-estate per bit, as the platter is spins faster at the outer edges. This technique has the advantage allowing faster access times, as the spindle never needs to be recalibrated for a particular read rate. You may get less data per disc if a constant bit rate is required.
CLV ( Constant Linear Velocity ) This technique keeps the data rate constant. As the laser starts to move to the outside, the platter slows. This keeps the bit rate constant, and the bits on the platter all the same size, giving maximum data storage capacity. The problem with this is that access can take a penalty, as the spindle must speed up or slow down to keep a certain bit rate, and the disc must be re-synced before a read can happen. In this fashion, the number of sectors increase on each track.
Within these two recording schemes you can see on DVD-RAM how there are steps suggesting that the platter spins at a constant rate for a while, the sudenly slows a little, then resumes a constant speed. At one point Laserdisc called this CAA, though the acronym for this escapes me. With DVD-RAM, you can see the sector layout on the platter with the naked eye, DVD uses CLV, you see no sector layout on the discs at all.
In all of this techno-babble, I hope that people see that DVD-RAM has no commonality to DVD in anything other than name. In short. DVD-RAM discs can only be played in drives programmed specifically to read them. With DVD+/-R, the reader, however, does not need to have a clue of what a recordable disc is.
Hope this helps, and if it doesn't let me know so I can stop replying at 11PM.
Max
DVD-RAM is totally incompatable with about 90% of the DVD drives out there, DVD-Rom Drives included.
Only some drives made by Panasonic, Toshiba, and Hitachi will read DVD-RAM discs.
For some DVD specifics....
The later ( Type 2 ) discs can be removed from the caddy that they come in. This gives the user a disc that will physically fit in a drive. If you look at a DVD RAM disc out of the case, compared to a DVD disc, you will see that there are hash marks all over the DVD-RAM disc. This sector layout is predetermined, to allow for data allocation, and much higher performace for data storage. In some respects, this is close to the way a hard drive is layed out. While I have not looked into the specs of the format, I suspect that this layout is an attribute of a combination CAV and CLV spinout. This visualisation shows that even the very base format of DVD-RAM has no similarity to DVD. DVD has a sequential track that is pure CLV. DVD +R and -R follow this sector layout, matching the characteristics of DVD.
I may have jumped ahead here a little for those who are not sure what exactly CLV and CAV are.
CAV ( Constant Angular Velocity ) This techinque of reading a disc keeps a disc at a constant speed. As the laser moves towards the outer edge, the data thoughput increases, as the bits pass by the laser faster ( assuming that the bits always take the same amount of disc real-estate ). If the bit rate is required to remain constant, the bits consume more real-estate per bit, as the platter is spins faster at the outer edges. This technique has the advantage allowing faster access times, as the spindle never needs to be recalibrated for a particular read rate. You may get less data per disc if a constant bit rate is required.
CLV ( Constant Linear Velocity ) This technique keeps the data rate constant. As the laser starts to move to the outside, the platter slows. This keeps the bit rate constant, and the bits on the platter all the same size, giving maximum data storage capacity. The problem with this is that access can take a penalty, as the spindle must speed up or slow down to keep a certain bit rate, and the disc must be re-synced before a read can happen. In this fashion, the number of sectors increase on each track.
Within these two recording schemes you can see on DVD-RAM how there are steps suggesting that the platter spins at a constant rate for a while, the sudenly slows a little, then resumes a constant speed. At one point Laserdisc called this CAA, though the acronym for this escapes me. With DVD-RAM, you can see the sector layout on the platter with the naked eye, DVD uses CLV, you see no sector layout on the discs at all.
In all of this techno-babble, I hope that people see that DVD-RAM has no commonality to DVD in anything other than name. In short. DVD-RAM discs can only be played in drives programmed specifically to read them. With DVD+/-R, the reader, however, does not need to have a clue of what a recordable disc is.
Hope this helps, and if it doesn't let me know so I can stop replying at 11PM.
Max
They said that "MacRumors.com says that Apple made a deal with Pioneer to use the new 106 drive in all their new Macs."
While this is probably a good guess, it does not say that on this site (at least not where I can see) and I don't see Apple providing support for DVD+R/RW media even if they do use the DVR-106 in their new Macs.
I have a DVD-RAM drive that I pulled out of an older G4. It is the tray-loading model. I installed it into a FireWire case and connected it to my Quicksilver and to a beige G3 for doing backups. It works fine in 10.2.6. I have never tried it in OS 9. When I insert a DVD-RAM disc, it appears on the desktop like any other optical disc. (Of course, when I inserted a new disc, it asked me to format it, and I said "okay.") I don't use it with my Quicksilver anymore, since I just bought a DVR-105 to go in there.
Edit: One more thing - I believe the older drive only reads/writes 2.6 and 5.2 GB discs, not the newer 4.7 and 9.4 GB discs. The newer tray loading drive should read/write them all.
I use one , both with OS9 and Jag, and again it is the older tray-loader.
They DO only accept the 2.6/5.2Gb disks, but are very useful to put in a server and do nightly incremental backups with Retrospect.
Jaguar - no problems
OS9 - Retrospect will use it quite happily, but for other finder-based use I use DVD-RAM TuneUp from Software Architects Inc
If anyone needs more info, just ask.
Nig.
Session burning...
Yeah, that's what I really miss in the DVD-RW (and presumably also DVD+RW) format: the possibility to burn another session on the disk, or to even use the unused space to burn something within the earlier burnt session. (Can you do that with DVD-RAM?)
Oh well, I don't really need it. Just wonder why the DVD-RW format doesn't support session burning.
Yeah, that's what I really miss in the DVD-RW (and presumably also DVD+RW) format: the possibility to burn another session on the disk, or to even use the unused space to burn something within the earlier burnt session. (Can you do that with DVD-RAM?)
Oh well, I don't really need it. Just wonder why the DVD-RW format doesn't support session burning.
Open DVD
Apparently, there is a modification to the specification coming that will support multi session. I have yet to read up on it more, but you can find out more by searching for OpenDVD on GOOGLE.
Max
Apparently, there is a modification to the specification coming that will support multi session. I have yet to read up on it more, but you can find out more by searching for OpenDVD on GOOGLE.
Max
Difference between - and +
The practical differences are:
- The DVD-R media is the least expensive.
- The DVD-R disks are most compatible with DVD players.
- DVD+R/RW are faster than DVD-R/RW at writing 'data' (random access).
- Microsoft "supports" +R/RW, and Apple "supports" -R/RW. Either kind of drive can be made to work on either platform.
- Vendors are starting to sell drives that support both formats, so the difference will become moot -- you can buy whichever disk format fits your requirements.
So I'd suggest that if your application is video, DVD-R is the obvious way to go -- it's most compatible with DVD players. If you're doing backups, DVD-R is the least expensive storage (70 cents for a 4.7 GB disk, last time I looked), but DVD+R is a bit faster.
You you want to use a DVD as a big floppy disk, DVD+RW is better.
The practical differences are:
- The DVD-R media is the least expensive.
- The DVD-R disks are most compatible with DVD players.
- DVD+R/RW are faster than DVD-R/RW at writing 'data' (random access).
- Microsoft "supports" +R/RW, and Apple "supports" -R/RW. Either kind of drive can be made to work on either platform.
- Vendors are starting to sell drives that support both formats, so the difference will become moot -- you can buy whichever disk format fits your requirements.
So I'd suggest that if your application is video, DVD-R is the obvious way to go -- it's most compatible with DVD players. If you're doing backups, DVD-R is the least expensive storage (70 cents for a 4.7 GB disk, last time I looked), but DVD+R is a bit faster.
You you want to use a DVD as a big floppy disk, DVD+RW is better.
Originally posted by Nutzoids
So many new toys...Thank you Apple for being on top of things
why are you thanking apple??? shouldn't you be thanking pioneer?
Re: Difference between - and +
While you are mostly right, I wanted to clarify a couple of things....
At this point, DVD+R and DVD-R at 4X are the same for speed of data transfer. Also, Microsoft announced last week that they now support both plus and minus formats. While you are right about the plus format having the ability to be used like a floppy, the minus forum has found ways to do the same.
The differences are dimishing. Anyone who is in the market for a DVD burner should buy a multi burner at this point. It is kinda silly to buy a plus 'or' minus burner at this point.
Max
P.S. one thing I do like for the minus format is that there are dual sided discs readily available for cheap. This is a great thing for data backup since you can put >10 GB on a $2 disk.
Max
While you are mostly right, I wanted to clarify a couple of things....
At this point, DVD+R and DVD-R at 4X are the same for speed of data transfer. Also, Microsoft announced last week that they now support both plus and minus formats. While you are right about the plus format having the ability to be used like a floppy, the minus forum has found ways to do the same.
The differences are dimishing. Anyone who is in the market for a DVD burner should buy a multi burner at this point. It is kinda silly to buy a plus 'or' minus burner at this point.
Max
P.S. one thing I do like for the minus format is that there are dual sided discs readily available for cheap. This is a great thing for data backup since you can put >10 GB on a $2 disk.
Max
Re: Re: Difference between - and +
How I wish you were right! But I have been looking at double sided DVDs and the cheapest is $8+, not $2 per disc. List price for Pioneer branded is around $16/ea. and they seem to be out of stock everywhere. If you can find 2X certified dual sided for $2, let us all know where it can be found!
John
How I wish you were right! But I have been looking at double sided DVDs and the cheapest is $8+, not $2 per disc. List price for Pioneer branded is around $16/ea. and they seem to be out of stock everywhere. If you can find 2X certified dual sided for $2, let us all know where it can be found!
John
???
Your right ( sorta )!! When I posted this, they were slightly above $2, but they have gone up dramatically!!! They are now a little over $3!!!!! Also, I never claimed that you could get dual sided 2X media for 2 bucks. I simply claimed that you could get dual sided media for that price.
Be carful when you tell someone they are full of crap. They may prove your wrong.
Here is proof ( and where I buy my disks ) that quality DVD-Rs are cheap. Ritek has gotten a good reputation in recent times, and many professional tape dealers now carry them.
$8?? I don't think so..
http://www.meritline.com/ritprim94dvg.html
Meritline repackages these disks.. here is the link
http://www.meritline.com/94dvgenpurdo.html
Max
P.S. Usually these are in stock. I just checked, and you are right. They are out of stock. They must have had a run recently.
Max
Your right ( sorta )!! When I posted this, they were slightly above $2, but they have gone up dramatically!!! They are now a little over $3!!!!! Also, I never claimed that you could get dual sided 2X media for 2 bucks. I simply claimed that you could get dual sided media for that price.
Be carful when you tell someone they are full of crap. They may prove your wrong.
Here is proof ( and where I buy my disks ) that quality DVD-Rs are cheap. Ritek has gotten a good reputation in recent times, and many professional tape dealers now carry them.
$8?? I don't think so..
http://www.meritline.com/ritprim94dvg.html
Meritline repackages these disks.. here is the link
http://www.meritline.com/94dvgenpurdo.html
Max
P.S. Usually these are in stock. I just checked, and you are right. They are out of stock. They must have had a run recently.
Max
maxvamp,
Doing a google search I found NO 1x dual sided DVD-R just the 2x. I clearly stated what prices I was finding and asked for your source info. After all you COULD have made a typo! As far as being full of crap... well you made that assuption and if anything made yourself look a little silly for making such a comment. I guess I could have made it blatently clear that I'm searching for quality branded 2x or 4x double sided DVD-R but I didn't. I wouldn't even think of using1x media, especially when making runs of 20-100 for my customers. Besides, buying Pioneer 105-106(s) would have been a total waste of money for making faster production runs.
Thanks for sharing your supplier info with the group!
Doing a google search I found NO 1x dual sided DVD-R just the 2x. I clearly stated what prices I was finding and asked for your source info. After all you COULD have made a typo! As far as being full of crap... well you made that assuption and if anything made yourself look a little silly for making such a comment. I guess I could have made it blatently clear that I'm searching for quality branded 2x or 4x double sided DVD-R but I didn't. I wouldn't even think of using1x media, especially when making runs of 20-100 for my customers. Besides, buying Pioneer 105-106(s) would have been a total waste of money for making faster production runs.
Thanks for sharing your supplier info with the group!
Even if they do....
Even if they do, they might not support the firmware to burn in those formats. The Sony drive that they use in some iMacs supports DVD-RW, but apple doesn't, so you can't burn in that format.
Even if they do, they might not support the firmware to burn in those formats. The Sony drive that they use in some iMacs supports DVD-RW, but apple doesn't, so you can't burn in that format.
ZenJohn
Interesting the inflections one assumes when reading email. When I first read your post, I simply took it as a challenge that I had mis-stated information. I see such posts all the time here ( and on other boards ) and quite frankly, I was a little insulted.
You see, I didn't know that you were having issues finding any cheap disks the met your specific criteria of faster discs, and your statement implied that I had made a false claim. To be honest, I think it may be a while before you actually find any 4x dual sided media. Furthermore, I doubt Pioneer has any interest in competing strongly in the blank media market.
If I have offended, I am sorry. I do ask, however, that you add more detail to your posts, as it may fend off rude replies.
Thank you for understanding,
Max
Interesting the inflections one assumes when reading email. When I first read your post, I simply took it as a challenge that I had mis-stated information. I see such posts all the time here ( and on other boards ) and quite frankly, I was a little insulted.
You see, I didn't know that you were having issues finding any cheap disks the met your specific criteria of faster discs, and your statement implied that I had made a false claim. To be honest, I think it may be a while before you actually find any 4x dual sided media. Furthermore, I doubt Pioneer has any interest in competing strongly in the blank media market.
If I have offended, I am sorry. I do ask, however, that you add more detail to your posts, as it may fend off rude replies.
Thank you for understanding,
Max
Re: Even if they do....
Pete are you referring to the 15" iMacs? First I've heard of Sony drives being used. In any case it looks like Apple doesn't directly support DVD-RW burning, but states just to use Toast. http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=42718 Even though the OS doesn't directly support it, it doesn't prevent it from performing such a task. Actually, iTunes supports DVD-RW and has done so for a while: http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=61083
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=93033
If Sony drives are used in the 15" iMac then it would explain why it has a special firmware update, unless it has to do with the MB in the unit. http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=120161
If you have a specific model number/version of iMac that is using the Sony drive that you mentioned, or any TILs that pertain to this problem please post them as it's good to know. Especially when you support 200+ Macs of various models and configurations like I do!
Tks, John
Pete are you referring to the 15" iMacs? First I've heard of Sony drives being used. In any case it looks like Apple doesn't directly support DVD-RW burning, but states just to use Toast. http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=42718 Even though the OS doesn't directly support it, it doesn't prevent it from performing such a task. Actually, iTunes supports DVD-RW and has done so for a while: http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=61083
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=93033
If Sony drives are used in the 15" iMac then it would explain why it has a special firmware update, unless it has to do with the MB in the unit. http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=120161
If you have a specific model number/version of iMac that is using the Sony drive that you mentioned, or any TILs that pertain to this problem please post them as it's good to know. Especially when you support 200+ Macs of various models and configurations like I do!
Tks, John
For more information on this subject, go to http://forums.xlr8yourmac.com/drivedb/search.drivedb.lasso and select "DVD+R/RW + DVD-R/RW" from the first popup. Then hit search, and you will get a number of explanations and solutions for getting these drives to work properly with the Mac.
This is all well and good, but what I want to know is, when is Pioneer (or someone) going to make a drive that does all the formats, in addition to burning CDRs at a reasonable speed? 16x? Come on, they're up to 52x now. This is especially important now that Apple's high-end towers only come with one optical bay. It's be great if they could make one reaaaaaaaaaaaaally fast drive that does it all!
Regardless, in an effort to stay 'with it', I wonder if I should call Apple and change my G5 order to a combo drive so I can order this new Pioneer and stick it in there when I get?
Regardless, in an effort to stay 'with it', I wonder if I should call Apple and change my G5 order to a combo drive so I can order this new Pioneer and stick it in there when I get?
Re: Re: Even if they do....
Thank you for correcting me. I don't own a mac, just a poor teen with mac dreams.
Thank you for correcting me. I don't own a mac, just a poor teen with mac dreams.
Yes, Apple did used to have DVD-RAM, but the old version, and the Sony DVD-/+R in some iMacs have +R and R/W compatibility, but ONLY through Toast. No need to be rude about it.
The new G5s should be using Pioneer A06 Drives, based on the specs they provide. 16x CD-R, 10x CD-R/W (as opposed to 8x in the A05s), and 4x DVD-/+R. They probably won't natively write to + media, but they may include support for -R/W. Otherwise you'll need Toast for both.
Plextor has a new 8x DVD+R, 4x DVD-R, 4x DVD+R/W, 2x DVD-R/W, 40x CD-R, 24x CD-R/W, 2MB buffer. The PX708A. Mac compatible probably only through a hack. XLR8YourMac has info on how to do this.
The new G5s should be using Pioneer A06 Drives, based on the specs they provide. 16x CD-R, 10x CD-R/W (as opposed to 8x in the A05s), and 4x DVD-/+R. They probably won't natively write to + media, but they may include support for -R/W. Otherwise you'll need Toast for both.
Plextor has a new 8x DVD+R, 4x DVD-R, 4x DVD+R/W, 2x DVD-R/W, 40x CD-R, 24x CD-R/W, 2MB buffer. The PX708A. Mac compatible probably only through a hack. XLR8YourMac has info on how to do this.
It would be GREAT if Panther would support +R/+RW without having to swap the SuperDrive for a new one. I have the Sony DVD RW DW-U10A in my 17" iMac and it can NOT handle DVD+R/+RW.
I have a Philips DVDR80 DVD recorder connected to my TV in the living room. This is a +R/+RW recorder, and the disks produced are playable in most regular DVD players. However, the Mac cannot handle them at all. Not even copying the contents to the desktop, not even copying with Toast.
I can open the disk in Finder, it has no AUDIO_TS folder, it has the regular VIDEO_TS folder and a mysterious VIDEO_RM folder, probably +R/+RW specific stuff. I get I/O error in Toast and DVDBackup, -128 error in Finder. DVDPlayer reads the disc and displays the main menu on the DVD but hangs when trying to play it, requiring restart!!
PLEASE let us have the + compatibility Apple!!
I have a Philips DVDR80 DVD recorder connected to my TV in the living room. This is a +R/+RW recorder, and the disks produced are playable in most regular DVD players. However, the Mac cannot handle them at all. Not even copying the contents to the desktop, not even copying with Toast.
I can open the disk in Finder, it has no AUDIO_TS folder, it has the regular VIDEO_TS folder and a mysterious VIDEO_RM folder, probably +R/+RW specific stuff. I get I/O error in Toast and DVDBackup, -128 error in Finder. DVDPlayer reads the disc and displays the main menu on the DVD but hangs when trying to play it, requiring restart!!
PLEASE let us have the + compatibility Apple!!