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Taking the time to get it right doesn't mean taking their own sweet time.

As for new initiatives,

I just listed some that I am aware of. AR. AR glasses. Continued development on the watch. Health initiatives. You would have to be blind to assume that Apple is coasting along and doing nothing but count their money just because Macs updates have been lacklustre.

In an earlier post, you mentioned some of the innovative initiatives that Apple is working on include AR, health initiatives, self-driving vehicles, etc. I agree with you that there is the potential for both incredible growth from a business perspective and incredible potential to change people's lives for the better via the development of these technologies (which I think was one of your points)...here's where my perspective diverges. I think Apple is pretty well focused on health initiatives...they have a device in the wild, the Apple Watch, that is fairly well-received with mainstream consumers, they have some ideas on where they'd like to go with it, some moderate success health-wise, and as they develop more sensors, huge potential to changes (save) people's lives. But, you seem to have a blind faith that where Apple has exhibited a sense of focus in one aspect to assume it's that way with others. While it's arguable that we don't know a whole lot about the self-driving initiative, there have been many reports that Apple has waffled one way or another in terms of trying to partner with different companies, had setbacks in their time table, redefined their goal to incorporate an employee shuttle, etc. This really appears to be one initiative that doesn't exactly have that kind of focus (I'm consciously avoiding the over exaggeration of "lasar focus") that the health initiative (linked to Apple Watch), or iPad or iPhone lines have. Their AR initiative seems to be similarly ambiguous, at this point. Self-driving and AR may come into focus later or may not.

I think what this illustrates is that Apple has a better handle on somethings then other things. This doesn't mean their focus on the self-driving sector is a waste of time or will be a failure or will drive the company down. Every company does some things better than others. Every company has some initiatives that they really understand, envision, etc. And....they have other initiatives that they are working on in order to get to that point where they can focus their development. That said, I think the laptop line has lost its way...even if it's only going to be for 5 years or so....Many have pointed out that the MB is really evolving in the MBA line. What this means is that it'd be easier for Apple to reposition its current teams on two lines...MB and MBP. Now, you've argued that pro hardware would take too much money to design and pull teams away from other projects...but there are already people working on the laptop lines...it's not like they'd have to create a whole new team from scratch, hire people, or pull people off AR. I think if Apple gave a good hard think about what kind of differentiation they can provide people among the MB and MBP line, given the different form factors, they have enough option where at one end there is ultra-portability (with plenty of power for mainstream users) and at the other a pro machine that equates with some characteristics that have defined the pro machines up to 3 years ago in the MBP line, at least at the 15 inch MBP offering.

Would this mean returning to legacy ports? No. That ship has sailed. (Although, I can imagine them returning the SD port, given the cries from the media folks...I've only used that port once or twice in my life, but it's clear that those working with cameras can use them often.) But, it might mean temporarily restraining the knee-jerk move towards MORE thinness, with some of the other characteristics people have been clamoring for. Geekbench has reported testing of new Mac with 32GB and a CPU that fits with what Apple might put in a laptop...that's possibly news that they are thinking this way. I think it would include more powerful options with the escape key intact. And, the whole line would certainly have a keyboard that is user-centric...not just from a position that users want thin machines, but that doesn't break more often than their older models which have keyboards we've come to love.

Now, I totally hear you when you respond to hyperbolic people that claim Apple is going down and they can't do anything right...Apple is doing fine by all economic indicators...they do have many products that are successes...while I don't care for the notch, I'm not ignorant enough to think that detracts from the function of that device in a way that is more than aesthetic. But, those who support Apple have argued that people like those in this thread that are more knowledgeable of technology and critical of Apple's recent track record with the Mac line don't matter...This is a claim that originates out of hubris and I think Apple would disagree...while it might not seem like it, I think Apple would say they care about all their customers and especially those who have been most passionate with them over the last couple of decades.
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What is it then which drives Mac users to start flaming Apple in completely unrelated threads such as those on Animoji or watchOS, if not hate? To insult and denigrate the efforts of Apple in these fields, and by extension, the users who do look forward to such features?

This is obviously not going to stop with this thread, and I can only imagine the next non-Mac related thread they are going to pollute next.

When people flame animojis or watchos, I would argue it often originates out of frustration...not hate. They are likely frustrated given some feature of software or hardware they see languishing rather than some innate hatred for animojis or watchos or the people who enjoy them. Obviously, it may not be very productive, but there you go.
 
Thats why the Apple repair quotes are a joke and essentially fraud. They have you pay to fix known design defects and their manufacturing processes are such that if any one component fails, they generally need to replace the whole board. Or now, board, battery, top case etc...

Amen.

Can’t believe they make so much compromises for the sake of design.
 
In 2028 I can guarantee architects wont be using autocad - in fact I haven’t touched it for 15 years.

Replace "AutoCAD" with "the CAD system of your choice".

Incidentally, architecture is probably the one field in which a regular CAD might benefit from extra VR functionality.

The same does not apply to, I don't know, circuit designers using OrCAD, or physicists using MATLAB.

But anyway, you know nothing about cloud computing either by the sounds of it.

Judging from what's written on my business card, my employer thinks otherwise...

I wonder what you think are the differences between the notion of cloud computing and the client-server model.

What I said is that powerful desktops will not be required.

Now that's an intersting point of view.

Although I can see a move towards more centralized computing, I do not think workstations will go extinct any time soon - for intrinsic practical limitations.

For example, a packet switching network generally does not go well with hard real-time requirements, which is why if you want your Google Maps not to be even more laggy than it already is, you want the rendering loop to run locally.

If and when (certainly later than 2028) we have circuit-switching, low-latency, optical fiber connections to the nearest Google data center, you will be able to use your computer as a dumb terminal for a rendering loop running on a Google machine, much like the BBSs of the 1980s did over POTS, but then again that negates all of the advantages of the Internet and of cloud computing (for starters, elasticity).


You have zero vision.

I choose to take this as one of the greatest compliments that's ever been paid to me, since "vision" is usually a synonym for "unsubstantiated mumbo-jumbo and buzzwords".

Yes the bean counters will be on the absolute basic machines available. But I know they wont be Apple, which is what this discussion is about,

Of course they won't.

So you agree that there will a demand for personal computers and workstations and Apple won't supply them, preferring to focus on phones and consumer devices?
 
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but there are already people working on the laptop lines...it's not like they'd have to create a whole new team from scratch, hire people, or pull people off AR. I think if Apple gave a good hard think about what kind of differentiation they can provide people among the MB and MBP line, given the different form factors, they have enough option where at one end there is ultra-portability (with plenty of power for mainstream users) and at the other a pro machine that equates with some characteristics that have defined the pro machines up to 3 years ago in the MBP line, at least at the 15 inch MBP offering.
That’s not actually how Apple works.

My understanding is that Apple employs what is known as a functional organisational structure. This means that there isn’t a dedicated MacBook team or iMac team or iPhone team or Apple Watch team. There isn’t even an iOS or macOS team. Everyone works on anything and everything. Rather, people are deployed as and where they are needed. So if Apple decides that AR is the future, they could pull people off the macOS team to work on AR if they wanted to go full throttle. Which I suspect is precisely what they are doing.

There are obviously pros and cons to this. If you are wondering why the Mac mini hasn’t been updated in ages, that’s because there likely is no Mac mini team. They have long been redeployed to work on other areas. But this also gives Apple the flexibility to focus on whatever new initiative they wish, when they wish. It also helps improve collaboration amongst everybody.
 
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Not updating a Computer lineup for 1 year is like if cars were not updated in like 2 decades, not updating for 1400 days .... hey buy this brand new 1965 car.. yes we still produce thouse, top of the line.. or at least they were in 1965... - But we updated the software running the FM transistor radio and the 8 track player.
Ironically, a '65 Camero actually has value.
 
The state of Mac is sad indeed. I understand the idea - innovation in PC industry is slowing especially on the desktop hardware side, so a yearly upgrade cycle is unsustainable or not needed. We should upgrade less often. But Apple is sending a contradictory message on the software front. A Mac Mini bought in mid 2012 (even though it looks exactly the same and is just as capable as the current 2014 Mac Mini) is ineligible to run the latest Mac OS introduced in 2018. This machine is only three generations old in terms of the Mini lineup! If I want to buy a replacement, I can't, since the message is clear: the current 2014 Mac Mini will probably be unsupported in 2-3 years. :(

If the message is that we should not upgrade that often, then please, at least be consistent and don't force obsolescence on the software front!
 
I bought my first Apple computer in 2008. It directly led to me buying an iPhone later that year. Compared to Windows Machines it was stable and reliable and a lot more secure. I don’t think I can use any of those adjectives today to compare a good Windows machine to today’s Mac lineup. Privacy may be the only area where Apple has the advantage, but given that Apple is already selling people out in Asia and Eastern Europe I can’t say I have faith that they won’t do so here in the US eventually.

Creative people used to flock to Apple. Now they have to pick something else because the performance gap is becoming too wide. Apple may not have made a lot of money selling computers to these people but they got a lot of good publicity and also superior software from them, and they use to make a lot of money from that.

I don’t think Apple is in danger of going bankrupt but I do think that they have already become just another tech company. A good product here and there, lots of gimmicks, and a growing number of disappointed customers.

For a lot of people Apple doesn’t “Just Work” anymore.
 
I completely disagree. I'd bin both of my C2D iMacs were it not for the fact that they Run ALL of Adobe CS5 in the same way as they did straight out of the box and they're very useful to me. I have newer Macs running newer software that I use as daily drivers, but even for doing fairly sophisticated Photoshop and likewise, they are still very capable machines. 10 years on. I'm not going to throw something out just because it's old - who knows how much longer they'll last, but I reckon they've still got plenty of life left in them. One of them has been left on 24/7 for a good three quarters of its life. It's bombproof!

Good for you. Too many people are obsessed with "new for the sake of new" instead of using what works for them.
 
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That’s not actually how Apple works.

My understanding is that Apple employs what is known as a functional organisational structure. This means that there isn’t a dedicated MacBook team or iMac team or iPhone team or Apple Watch team. There isn’t even an iOS or macOS team. Everyone works on anything and everything. Rather, people are deployed as and where they are needed. So if Apple decides that AR is the future, they could pull people off the macOS team to work on AR if they wanted to go full throttle. Which I suspect is precisely what they are doing.

There are obviously pros and cons to this. If you are wondering why the Mac mini hasn’t been updated in ages, that’s because there likely is no Mac mini team. They have long been redeployed to work on other areas. But this also gives Apple the flexibility to focus on whatever new initiative they wish, when they wish. It also helps improve collaboration amongst everybody.
Are you sure that this is how they operate? In Steve Jobs’s biography, it was pretty much the opposite of this. I am just curious. Did they change it? When?
 
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Not buying another Mac until I can plug in an iPhone directly out of the box, either by Apple throwing in a stupid dongle or by replacing lightning with USB-C on the iPhone. Not that I routinely plug in my phone, but the dongle and cable metastasis in my bag — all white and a tangled undifferentiated mess — has driven me to the brink of insanity.
 
Only? That's 4 times as many ports as a MacBook

By "only" I meant port uniformity. The Dell XPS 13 has been criticised for lack of USB-A, HDMI, and for replacing the SD slot with a micro-SD slot.

What’s wrong with them? The 15” is a great machine. 13” is always weaker. You can go back to 2010 when the 13” still came with Core 2 Duo while the 15 and 17 had i7 and SSDs. If anything blame Intel not Apple.

One word: keyboard. Failure rates are abnormally high and the only fix available is replacing half of the laptop--an expensive repair (~$700) for an already excessively priced computer.

Blame Apple, not Intel. Apple engineered the keyboard poorly (look at my other posts) and has not updated their laptops to include current 8th gen CPUs which have given a significant performance boost (based on tests for Apple's PC cousins). The 13" MBP should have the 4 core 8 thread CPU and the 15" MBP should have the 6 core 12 thread CPU. PC OEMs have managed to accomplish this with chasses that are comparable or thinner than the MBPs and without the keyboard issues Apple users are encountering.

They will by the end of the year. I’d say October launch and release. They may even come with Vega in the 15”. This would provide a huge increase from the 80GB/s bandwidth. They may even squeeze another hour of battery life out of this solution.

I am tired of waiting for the products in the pipeline. So are other Mac (not iOS) users. The few products released in the last couple of years have been disasters:

--MB(P)s with poor battery life due to lower battery capacity and a dubious touch bar (where is our terraced battery technology?);

--dongle-hell due to the inclusion of only USB-C ports (look at PC OEMs who managed to include the new USB-C ports and legacy ports for the most optimized functionality);

--the lack of two USB-C ports on the MB so that it requires a dock to charge while attaching peripherals;

--the lack of TB (ThunderBolt) on the MB which prevents it from becoming an ultimate ultraportable which could then also use an eGPU;

--an iMac Pro which is thermally constrained due to design and performance constrained due to the use of mobile parts again because of design.

Apple needs to stop promising and start producing results for Mac users, or else be honest with us and just tell us the show is over.
 
I'm curious how often Apple will upgrade its Macs when Apple switches to ARM, as well as how much of a change each iteration will bring?

I've gotten a new computer every 6 years or so, and every time there was a noticeable difference. However, the last time, and now, not so much of a change. Seems more evolutionary than revolutionary.
 
One word: keyboard. Failure rates are abnormally high and the only fix available is replacing half of the laptop--an expensive repair (~$700) for an already excessively priced computer.

No one has actually supplied numbers yet on total keyboard repairs or failures. Not the people that filed lawsuits and not Apple itself. Until someone does provide the numbers, there's no proof the butterfly keyboard is actually less reliable than the scissor keyboards. I myself have had scissor keyboard problems both at work and at home in the past, so I'm not sure why people think anecdotal problems with butterfly keyboards prove anything on a large scale.
 
Let’s assume that Apple wasn’t trying to annoy its professional and Mac customers.

So...

What could’ve gone wrong and what’s happening?

MBA & MB
It’s clear that the MBA was intended to be phased out as quickly as possible and the MB was going to take over.

The original MBA was underpowered and priced high just like the original MB, but became lower in price over time and much loved. Clearly Apple had the same plan for the MB.

Presumably the gains in performance & then volume sales that were predicted to happen with the Intel processors used in the MB never happened, so the costs of the processors stayed high.

With Apple, unwilling to sacrifice their margins, the MB’s price stayed high too - and the MBA stayed around to meet a sub $1000 entry level price point.

What’s going to happen?

There are rumours of a 13 inch MacBook/Macbook Air using the standard ‘business class’ Intel processors w/ fans (sorry I forget the chip kind - understandable since Intel has so many lines).

I suspect that this will be launched as the new Air (everyone loves the Air & the Air is associated with Intel fan cooled chips) with the MB line retired for now.

This will buy Apple some breathing space for when the MB is relaunched as an ARM computer, likely with the Air planned to be upgraded each year for 2-3 years, for any Intel holdouts.

The MB will be cheaper.

MBP
I think you can only explain the MBP by a desire for Apple to make the MBP thinner and expecting Intel to deliver 10nm chips - which would run faster and cooler. This didn’t happen of course.

I don’t know how you can explain the touch bar. Presumably it came from the same building as 3D Touch!

The keyboard was obviously not tested enough. And it’s difficult to repair because of Apple’s industrial design. So Apple have shot themselves in the foot here.

I think that we are waiting some time because we are going to get a redesigned MBP (based off the current design).

We can expect a keyboard with more key travel (same as the one on the new Air I expect) and I think a deeper computer - those few mm lost in 2015 will come back.

I think that we can expect a more upgradeable computer with the 15 inch model at least.

And we can expect top end spec models that don’t have the touch bar.

Talking of the Touch bar, I think we’ll see this stay around until models with Face ID can be launched (when the line invariable moves to ARM).

I think we can expect to see he capabilities of the T2 chip added to it & the T2 chip included in models without the touchbar.

Oh and the entry level MPB 13 will go replaced by the new Air. There will be a sharper definition between with a consumer and Pro machine is.

Will we see an ARM MBP? I suspect so. But not until 2021-22.

iMac & iMac Pro
I don’t think we’ll see a redesign here until these computers go ARM.

We may possibly get iMac Pro levels of upgradeability added to the 27 inch 5k iMac.

Mac Mini
I think that this will be the first ARM Mac & that we’ll see it announced at WWDC 2019.

Mac Pro
I think this is taking a while as it’s being designed to first run with Intel chips and then ARM & that the roadmap for the MP has to account for this.

Thinking it through, you can see why new machines have taken so long.

I think the main issues have been:

  • Intel not delivering what they promised
  • Apple’s obsession with making everything small, thin & unibody has caused lots of issues (MB and MBP keyboard and a general lack of repairability and upgradeability
  • Miscalculations on innovations such as the current MP and the touch bar
Above and beyond this, I think that Intel’s failure plus the amount of R&D that is going into iOS related technologies mean that it only makes sense for Apple to continue to develop the Mac if it can go ARM too.

So we can look forward to Macs with:
  • Face ID
  • 4g & 5g modem
  • ‘Neural engine’ w/ machine learning & AI
  • ARM GPUs shared off the same technology developed for the iPad (ie cheaper and cooler to run)
  • App Store Mac apps using iCloud in the same way that iOS apps do
  • iCloud back ups.
  • And we’ll probably see cheaper Mac’s all round now that Apple will be sharing so much tech with iOS devices. Not ‘cheap’ - just ‘cheaper’. This is Apple!
 
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Can’t believe they make so much compromises for the sake of design.

Well, this is the company that has employees been rushed to hospital because the higher-ups decided to use glass for their walls.

Can you imagine if Samsung had done that? It's farcical!

All laughing aside, I think that's the ultimate example of design over form LITERALLY hitting them in their faces.
 
Creative people used to flock to Apple. Now they have to pick something else because the performance gap is becoming too wide.

Name some software that has a wide performance gap? I guarantee you that the "recommended" configuration on most creative software is not really that high compared to Apple's current desktop/laptop lineup. That's one of the things that is so bizarre about people complaining about the hardware...most of the software is WAY behind. There isn't much legacy software that has been built from the ground up lately. That's why it's legacy. The specs aren't that high so the cheap business world won't complain too much.
 
The first ppc macs were about the same performance level as the 68k

If the a series macs are the same level of performance as the current ones I can see the transition going fairly smoothly... famous last words

Maybe that explains why they haven’t updated the macs ?
 
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That’s not actually how Apple works.

My understanding is that Apple employs what is known as a functional organisational structure. This means that there isn’t a dedicated MacBook team or iMac team or iPhone team or Apple Watch team. There isn’t even an iOS or macOS team. Everyone works on anything and everything. Rather, people are deployed as and where they are needed. So if Apple decides that AR is the future, they could pull people off the macOS team to work on AR if they wanted to go full throttle. Which I suspect is precisely what they are doing.

There are obviously pros and cons to this. If you are wondering why the Mac mini hasn’t been updated in ages, that’s because there likely is no Mac mini team. They have long been redeployed to work on other areas. But this also gives Apple the flexibility to focus on whatever new initiative they wish, when they wish. It also helps improve collaboration amongst everybody.

Doesn't really change the fact that they still assign people to laptops and that their current vision for those lines is murky (MBA vs MB vs MBP). I stand by the argument that they can offer a fairly diverse range of laptops via MB and MBP lines that could even approach some of the niche markets that are riled up without additional staff (than they already assign for these lines) resulting in products that turn a profit...As others point out, this requires vision from leadership. I have a feeling the current ambiguity is a result of a vision from leadership that is more focused on what they will be doing in 2020 than what those of us need now (because our current devices are failing and we need a laptop now). If that's true, then I imagine that's what's going on with stuff like the Mac Pro and mini, as well...

(I don't wonder about Mac mini, personally...cause it's not a product I'm interested in. But, I don't see updates to it requiring a huge team for huge amounts of time, either.)
 
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