Popular Reddit App Apollo Shutting Down on June 30

[yalag]

oh god, why am I going down the rabbit hole lol...

your neighbor giving you cookies for free daily is a gift that gets nothing in return for them. you are also unlikely to need the cookies to survive (its a cookie after all) so if you stop getting them it doesn't have a material impact on you aside from wondering if you neighbor suddenly hates you now or something...

the better analogy is this...

you own a giant theme park like Disney World and have built a highway to it. in addition you offer up your free and un-used park land to anyone willing to build additional highways to the park to bring more customers, but they have to bear the expense of building these additional roads. in exchange they can charge tolls on their roads but because these road developers know their roads are better and more convenient for many of the parks visitors those same visitors will happily pay the tolls to avoid the crowded and less desirable main road. then one day Disney World says "in 30 days we are closing and destroying all the extra roads and everyone has to go back to using the one single one we built. if its less convenient to our customers who have spent the last 10 years driving other roads, we don't care. if you built those additional roads, sorry but you have to destroy your investment in their construction and make a new plan for your lives." legal... but very anti-consumer and a terrible way to treat your partners who HELPED your business become what it is.

Fair. I accept your analogy it's very reasonable. But the few questions you have to ask is
1) Were the highway developers fairly compensated in this whole deal despite the rapid shutdown? For example I agree with you if Apollo spent 2 years of his time building this and then the API got shut down after 1 year. He would've lost money or worked at minimum wage. That's unethical. But this isn't the case. I repeat, the dude earned a whopping 2-3 MILLION dollars USD. I think it was a fair exchange by all accounts

2) The second thing you have to ask is, were there any level of deception? At court, they would ask even if there were no signed contract, were you ever lead to believe that the service would be provided for X amount of time as 0 cost? In this case, none. It was Apollo's assumption that it would be free (or cheap) forever, and willingly taken the risk to invest in building this product. And indeed, he profited but just not indefinitely that he wanted.

3) And finally in your analogy, the exchange is calculated and willing from all sides. Disney wanted investment from others, developers wanted to profit (for an unknown period of time). At any point in time, if either party left it's fair game. Flip the story around. If apollo just one day destroyed his app (with 0 notice), and took all its users away from reddit. Users are left with a choice to return to default app or stop using reddit. Is this unethical? I'd imagine your answer must be no. Why? The only difference again is that this generation of people have an extreme anti bias towards corporation.

 

[canyonblue737]

Will Reddit reverse the decision at all? Privately or otherwise? I think the decision has been made some time ago, and they somehow just decide to push the button today. Of course, I’m not insider or anything so I really have no idea. Maybe this shutdown will not shake company’s position at all, if yalag’s series of comments is anything to go by, just like Elon Musk fanatics And what Twitter has become today.

the decision was announced about 2 weeks ago or longer now. during that time according to Apollo's developer they haven't backed down slightly including in the face of a significant protest that will shutdown thousands of subreddits for 2 days later this week. the reality is the number of folks and developers upset by this unethical sudden behavior is significant but not significant enough to materially effect Reddit in the long run, and their goal is to bolster the perceived value of a likely pending IPO by saying that 100% of Reddit customers are forced to see advertisements on the singular mobile app.

 

[Fred Zed]

So you are not apollo‘s target user anyway. Good for you.

Don't recall it effecting the quality of my life either way... Ho hmmm..

 

[boss.king]

Don't recall it effecting the quality of my life either way... Ho hmmm..

So why are you taking the time to tell everyone how little it affects you? What are you gaining from this?

 

[Shirasaki]

Fair. I accept your analogy it's very reasonable. But the few questions you have to ask is
1) Were the highway developers fairly compensated in this whole deal despite the rapid shutdown? For example I agree with you if Apollo spent 2 years of his time building this and then the API got shut down after 1 year. He would've lost money or worked at minimum wage. That's unethical. But this isn't the case. I repeat, the dude earned a whopping 2-3 MILLION dollars USD. I think it was a fair exchange by all accounts

2) The second thing you have to ask is, were there any level of deception? At court, they would ask even if there were no signed contract, were you ever lead to believe that the service would be provided for X amount of time as 0 cost? In this case, none. It was Apollo's assumption that it would be free (or cheap) forever, and willingly taken the risk to invest in building this product. And indeed, he profited but just not indefinitely that he wanted.

3) And finally in your analogy, the exchange is calculated and willing from all sides. Disney wanted investment from others, developers wanted to profit (for an unknown period of time). At any point in time, if either party left it's fair game. Flip the story around. If apollo just one day destroyed his app (with 0 notice), and took all its users away from reddit. Users are left with a choice to return to default app or stop using reddit. Is this unethical? I'd imagine your answer must be no. Why? The only difference again is that this generation of people have an extreme anti bias towards corporation.

1) developers build those highways to Disney World because they evaluated the traffic, and did the balance sheet, and realise “hmm, I can have a steady stream of cashflow by doing this”. So they build the road, spend money and other things into it. That’s what Apollo dev did here, spent time and money to start, and then grow as time goes on. You keep repeating 2-3 million dollars without acknowledging the fact he doesn’t earn this amount overnight, just like those road builders doesn‘t get their road investment back by charging $800,000 toll per car.

2) deception? Well, that’s not up to me to decide or even guess. I don’t have both sides of the story Or have unrestricted access of those contracts. But, both parties must bind to the terms on contract. If situation changes, both parties must negotiate a new contract or choose to terminate the relationship. I’d wager that Reddit didn’t get this part sorted out before making that decision to charge a huge amount, but I shall let the court to decide.

3) yes. The exchange is calculated at that point in time and all parties involved are presumably happy with terms. Yes, either party can leave the game at any point, but without consequences? Breaking the contract? Breaking the trust? Teenagers are extremely anti-biased towards corporations because corporations care nothing about their customers (those very teenagers) by definition, other than providing services both parties agreed upon. Corporations have nothing to lose if those teenagers leave Reddit, why teenagers care about what corporations are thinking?

 

[Shirasaki]

Don't recall it effecting the quality of my life either way... Ho hmmm..

Uhh, ohhh…kay. Sure.

 

[Shirasaki]

the decision was announced about 2 weeks ago or longer now. during that time according to Apollo's developer they haven't backed down slightly including in the face of a significant protest that will shutdown thousands of subreddits for 2 days later this week. the reality is the number of folks and developers upset by this unethical sudden behavior is significant but not significant enough to materially effect Reddit in the long run, and their goal is to bolster the perceived value of a likely pending IPO by saying that 100% of Reddit customers are forced to see advertisements on the singular mobile app.

And this is the danger of their behavior towards third party apps: they know the impact is minimal. However unethical it is, nothing will change, materially. I’d say similar example can be found on many other industries as well. Brutal, cruel, ruthless, all for the money. This is exactly why we can never have nice things and good life. And why the world is still sinking with no one with power bothering to act.

 

[canyonblue737]

And this is the danger of their behavior towards third party apps: they know the impact is minimal. However unethical it is, nothing will change, materially. I’d say similar example can be found on many other industries as well. Brutal, cruel, ruthless, all for the money. This is exactly why we can never have nice things and good life. And why the world is still sinking with no one with power bothering to act.

The end result is that less developers will be willing to develop apps for new and upcoming services (that are asking for 3rd party help and offering APIs) because of a distrust of the long term future for those apps. That will hurt new services and it will hurt end users.

 

[yalag]

1) developers build those highways to Disney World because they evaluated the traffic, and did the balance sheet, and realise “hmm, I can have a steady stream of cashflow by doing this”. So they build the road, spend money and other things into it. That’s what Apollo dev did here, spent time and money to start, and then grow as time goes on. You keep repeating 2-3 million dollars without acknowledging the fact he doesn’t earn this amount overnight, just like those road builders doesn‘t get their road investment back by charging $800,000 toll per car.

I didn’t say he earned it overnight. But even over a period of time, it’s more than fair exchange. In the analogy, the developers spent 1 year building highways and $200,000. They earned 3 millions dollars over a 8 year period. What’s the issue here?

2) deception? Well, that’s not up to me to decide or even guess. I don’t have both sides of the story Or have unrestricted access of those contracts. But, both parties must bind to the terms on contract. If situation changes, both parties must negotiate a new contract or choose to terminate the relationship. I’d wager that Reddit didn’t get this part sorted out before making that decision to charge a huge amount, but I shall let the court to decide.

Theres no contract that’s my main point. Nothing illegal has happen here. Apollo wasn’t even in a position to ask for any kind of commitment when he started the project. So he willingly took the bet. That was his decision.

3) yes. The exchange is calculated at that point in time and all parties involved are presumably happy with terms. Yes, either party can leave the game at any point, but without consequences? Breaking the contract? Breaking the trust? Teenagers are extremely anti-biased towards corporations because corporations care nothing about their customers (those very teenagers) by definition, other than providing services both parties agreed upon. Corporations have nothing to lose if those teenagers leave Reddit, why teenagers care about what corporations are thinking?

Again, I ask you, if Apollo all of a sudden pulled his app, with 0 notice, 0 regards for his users, and as a result hurt Reddit’s user base. And when asked not to, Apollo said he wants 55million to keep the app up. Would you be angry? The answer is undoubtedly no. It’s his app, he does what he wants. It sounds like a stupid move but his losses *shrug* and you would move on. That. That’s the attitude you should have in the reverse scenario.

 

[yalag]

The end result is that less developers will be willing to develop apps for new and upcoming services (that are asking for 3rd party help and offering APIs) because of a distrust of the long term future for those apps. That will hurt new services and it will hurt end users.

Rest assured that there are a long line up of developers that are willing to earn 3 million (over 8 years) for writing software.

 

[canyonblue737]

Rest assured that there are a long line up of developers that are willing to earn 3 million (over 8 years) for writing software.

Do you know what a good developer working at a major Silicon Valley employer makes per year? You clearly don’t because after you account for taxes and costs over 8 years (that’s how long Apollo has existed) you likely get a take home of $150k-200k at best. Not much more (if at all) than those developers at the major corporations (and Apollo’s came from Apple) and at obviously much higher personal risk. Im not saying $2.8m GROSS for a self run company is terrible for 8 years but it isn’t nearly as much as you think in the end for the world of tech. I’ve made more in the last 8 years but I work for a company and bear very little risk in comparison. (To be clear I am not in tech)

 

[maxoakland]

Imagine telling Wal-mart you will use their entire infrastructure for FREE to sell your own stuff and getting mad they now want to make you pay to use their store to sell your goods all while already charging users a monthly/yearly fee.

Imagine building a business on other people's content and then telling them how they're allowed to access it

 

[maxoakland]

LMAO! MacRumors will calls out this unreasonable pricing, but won't say anything about Apple charging $2,000 for SSD drives when others charge $300.

I made this exact complaint about unreasonableness from Apple just a couple days ago; link

You know what else is also unreasonable? MacRumors criticism for companies outside of Apple and ZERO criticism for Apple itself.

Disgusting all around.

You're right and people need to admit it

 

[Shirasaki]

I didn’t say he earned it overnight. But even over a period of time, it’s more than fair exchange. In the analogy, the developers spent 1 year building highways and $200,000. They earned 3 millions dollars over a 8 year period. What’s the issue here?



Theres no contract that’s my main point. Nothing illegal has happen here. Apollo wasn’t even in a position to ask for any kind of commitment when he started the project. So he willingly took the bet. That was his decision.


Again, I ask you, if Apollo all of a sudden pulled his app, with 0 notice, 0 regards for his users, and as a result hurt Reddit’s user base. And when asked not to, Apollo said he wants 55million to keep the app up. Would you be angry? The answer is undoubtedly no. It’s his app, he does what he wants. It sounds like a stupid move but his losses *shrug* and you would move on. That. That’s the attitude you should have in the reverse scenario.

More than fair exchange? Apollo dev doesnt just take those $2-3m back home in raw aren’t they? Just like canyonblue737 says, factoring all the usual cost and tax, what he earns is Likely much less than that. Cumulative earning means nothing in business world. Yearly earning counts. If you still whinge about that 2-3 million dollars, you are missing the forest here.

If, instead, Apollo Suddenly announces app shutdown with 0 notice and 0 regards for his users, I would be angry towards Apollo as well, because they causes frustration and inconvenience to people without valid and plausible explanation/reason. Maybe Reddit can share some of the blame but issue definitely is on Apollo side. Yes, eventually everyone would move on, because thankfully Reddit is not necessity. But what if supermarket does the same? In fact, banks in Australia has been shutting down local branches for those remote towns in recent months, inconveniencing the vulnerable part of society, and I feel bad for those customers as well.

 

[Shirasaki]

Imagine building a business on other people's content and then telling them how they're allowed to access it

Imagine building a business on other people’s content which is WILLINGLY provided by said individual for free without any attempt to negotiate a better deal With that business, despite having the right to dictate how other businesses should access it all along.

 

[Krypton Deer]

June 30 will be my last day on Reddit

 

[trusso]

Dumbasses.

 

[Abazigal]

I didn’t say he earned it overnight. But even over a period of time, it’s more than fair exchange. In the analogy, the developers spent 1 year building highways and $200,000. They earned 3 millions dollars over a 8 year period. What’s the issue here?

I guess the issue here is the perceived lack of empathy. Though I understand I am not exactly the best person to comment on this, given my stance on support of the iOS App Store model (which hasn’t changed).

It’s not easy to find a business model that works, so when you come across one that puts food on the table while making your customers happy (because they are getting value they couldn’t derive from the stock app), you take it.

Sure, there are lessons to be had here (like the importance of diversification and to always have a backup plan), but I also look at the state of centralised media today and wonder to myself - what platform is there that you can truly own and control? Wordpress? So it’s disingenuous to claim it’s Christian’s fault for tying the fate of his app to a platform he didn’t control, because what other platform is there?

Third, your analogy can also be extended to normal everyday employment. I am paid but can be fired at any time for no reason other than I am not the boss of the company. That hardly seems fair or reasonable.

The Apollo dev is in the midst of having his livelihood upended, so maybe now isn’t the most tactful time to say this either. Maybe I just happened to be more passionate about this matter because Apollo (like Tweetbot) is an example of an app that is so well designed it makes people want to interact with it.

I don’t fundamentally disagree with the root of your argument, but I feel it’s lacking a lot of nuance.

 

[ipwTiYon2190Y]

Mods need to start being paid. They should all quit when reddit’s new policy starts.

 

[MacBH928]

Maybe Christian can start his own Lemmy server with Apollo integration for people to migrate

Not at all what is happening. Third party apps are fine with a fee to access it that is reasonable. Reddit waited until they had a huge cash cow, then decided "oh, we're totally going to start billing now" and picked an insane rate.

If you think this isn't an issue, that's fine, but your translation above isn't accurate.

Thats how capitalism works and now you know why some people chose to be socialists or communists. None the less, the capitalism fight continues via the invisible hand. Lets see how people react to this as the market adjust itself by itself

 

[GizmoDVD]

Who is giving away these free cookies?!?

 

[noraa]

Imagine telling Wal-mart you will use their entire infrastructure for FREE to sell your own stuff and getting mad they now want to make you pay to use their store to sell your goods all while already charging users a monthly/yearly fee.

Maybe you should actually read what happened before spouting off nonsense.

 

[svish]

Sad to see the app closing down.

 

[TheDailyApple]

Agreed. Macrumors is BY FAR my favorite online place… and they even banned me for a full year once.

Be honest here…did you deserve it?

 

[krspkbl]

I have now uninstalled the app

No more browsing Reddit on my iPhone. I could use the official app but I honestly really don't want to. Reddit needs to know they ****ed up here. And I will make a point to not visit the mobile site in Safari.

On desktop, I will keep using old reddit. The day that shuts down (it's only a matter of time) then I will be done with Reddit for good.