Cost is a function of die size and yield. Since they hired a lot of physical designers and did a lot of custom design, their cores are probably 10-15% smaller than competing cores based on the same microarchitecture.
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Possible Details on Apple's ARM-based 'A4' Chip?
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Cost is a function of die size and yield. Since they hired a lot of physical designers and did a lot of custom design, their cores are probably 10-15% smaller than competing cores based on the same microarchitecture.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QuickTransit
The technology has been used to allow SGI Itanium 2 systems to run old MIPS binaries, IBM Power5 systems to run x86 Linux binaries and SUN Solaris version to run SPARC binaries on Solaris x86/x86-64/Itanium.
Nothing about that suggests that it wouldn't be possible to use QuickTransit to run x86 binaries on an ARM processor since the technology is clearly very portable.
Then of course, there is nothing stopping Apple from adding the ARM version of MacOS X and having ARM binaries included in the universal binaries along with PPC and x86.
Just saying it is possible doesn't mean it will happen and why should it? If you want a fully functional x86 laptop running OS X you can get a Mac and if you're interested in the iPad (as I am) then it really doesn't matter that it is running iPhoneOS since the GUI is proven to work well in a touch environment and behind it is OS X in all its glory so the possibilities are only limited by where Apple wants to go with it.
Sweet, wonder when the Apple A8, Apple S4, and Apple RS4 come out
well the rs4 is retired.....the apple rs6 is in development and the apple rs5.
cuddos to german car inspiration.
Yeah and it all sucks donkey balls and is not widely used.
Apple will not leave Intel anytime soon, they are not completely stupid...
I can't believe this resurgence of PowerPC lovers. Apparently, some people have no clue how powerful regular desktop CPUs are. Guys, the Core i3/i5 is like 5-10times faster than any 1GHz Snapdragon/ARM CPU or 1.6 GHz Atom stuff. And no, it's not possible to port your apps doing a simple recompile. This works in the Java, Python and C# world, but not in C++ or Objective C. It's a BIG TASK to port an application to another architecture.
I can see these small portables ARM/Atom-based devices (netbooks, tablets) eating into the regular home computer market, but that will happen very slowly, and it will take at least 5-10 years before we'll see these things overtake regular computers at home, if it ever happens.
Yeah yeah, we can talk and make our geeky predictions all day about what the Apple A4 processor contains. But seriously guys, if it actually had 2 or 4 cores, don't you think Steve Jobs would have bragged about it during the keynote? Seems like a little common sense exercise to me.
For now, this is all we need to know: the iPad is fast and runs games at a smooth framerate on an XGA display. What more do we really need as far as processing power? I mean sure, maybe a couple years down the road when the OS is more advanced, but for now, you aren't going to be rendering any movies in FCP. More like checking your email at blazing speed. Not important as long as it works. I'll be buying one to use at school.
For now, this is all we need to know: the iPad is fast and runs games at a smooth framerate on an XGA display. What more do we really need as far as processing power? I mean sure, maybe a couple years down the road when the OS is more advanced, but for now, you aren't going to be rendering any movies in FCP. More like checking your email at blazing speed. Not important as long as it works. I'll be buying one to use at school.
Do you think if it really was a 4 core chip Steve Jobs would not mention that during presentation? Besides, quad core does not make any sense for mobile devices especially the ones running iPhone OS which severely limits multitasking.
But people will want to be able to compare in a few months when iPad starts competing with Tegra/Android based tablets
Neither Apple nor Nvidia makes the chips. Apple makes practically none of their products.
I think Nvidia is using TSMC as a foundry on Tegra2. They actually make the chips. It is their processes that get leveraged.
The EE Times referenced in the article that kick-stared the thread suggests that Apple is using Samsung as a foundry.
The costs are in the design team that composes the design. What "blocks" you license from other folks. The licensing fees for IP incorporated and the fees to the foundry for "printing" and packaging the chips.
Apple was doing similar process previously by having Samsung do the tweaking and the "printing".
As for how many.... really depends upon how big the cores are.
Nvidia Tegra2 (scroll down to the digram )
http://www.anandtech.com/gadgets/showdoc.aspx?i=3714
On their SoC there is two A9 cores , a image processor , an A7 core , a Video (H.264) core, a audio core , a GPU (with multiple relatively small cores).
All of that is on one piece of silicon. Dump a bunch of the x86 cruft and can fit lost more in the same space. It isn't what A9 class cores that apple may have put on here but perhaps some specialized processors that are just way better at some specific task than a generic computational core. Video and graphics cores respectively are way more efficient at doing computations they are built for than a general purpose CPU is.
It isn't really a question of how many. It is how many you need and of what type and what is the objective (performance , performance/Watt, etc. ). Also if collapsing cores that used to be in different chip packages (containers with pins on them) then may be saving space in the finished product but taking up more space on an individual wafer. The packages these dies fit into are typically much bigger than the dies themselves.
Bigger wafer usually means better costs.
More is fitting on the wafers because the imaging processes are getting smaller.
The other swing in costs is going to be at what width "printing" at. A mature 45nm process per wafer in a plant that has had that equipment for a year or so is going to be more affordable than a plant with a brand new 28nm process. You get a bit of a bang for the buck cause get more out of each wafer. However, with those recent multimillion dollar bills for the new equipment at that level you get charged more too. A brand new, first class 28nm fab facility will put you back around a billion dollars. So fewer and fewer folks build/own these things and more and more folks "share" by hiring folks to do runs of their stuff for them.
Next iPhone
Just for the discussion, I'll call it the 4G iPhone.
After the iPad disappointed with no front camera, no iChat, no Adobe Flash, no multi-tasking, I think it bodes very grimly for the 4G.
I dont think we'll see the front camera, nor iChat, nor Adobe flash.
I don't think we'll see a faster processor as companies do not want to make apps for 3 processor speeds and various memory configs. When the 3GS came out, I thought there would be a ton of new apps that would be "3GS only" but that didn't happen. Companies want to include the entire market, not just make an app for the 4G people. So a faster processor or more memory will mean what? Nothing. The 3GS is fine in terms of speed. Plus wouldn't a faster proc just heat up more and drain battery faster?
What we will see is what the hardware leaks confirmed, a 5Megp camera and a LED flash. The screen wont change at all, due to cost and existing apps.
Possibly HD video recording as well (if the processor/video proc can handle it).
So if your a 3GS person, the diff between 3 mp and 5pm is nothing. Most of us post our pics to Facebook and people are looking at 400X resolution images, not 3000X3000. Who needs to clog up the network uploading giant picture files?
So that 3GS person will upgrade for... a flash? Really? A flash that phones 10 yrs ago had (free phones mind you). $299 for a Flash?
Maybe some more colors? Maybe a minimum 32 gig in size?
I think iPhone has reached a plateau on terms of features/hardware and 'wow' factor.
I hope they come up with some 'wow' factor, but I don't see it.
And yes as everyone has said, the 3G to 3GS was basically 0 changes except for video recording, which again free phones 8 yrs ago could do. Apps were not created to take advantage of the speed/memory.
The only feature I want to see is FOLDERS. I want my "Games" and "Music" folders so my apps can live an organized existence and not on 900 pages. (And how about optional 'tagging' so if I download a game, it automatically goes into my Games folder)
They should also allow us to choose 1 app to multi-task at a time, and it can warn us every time we go to turn on the phone that the app is running and draining battery.
Now if they really want to go to the next level they need to figure out how to add more sensors. EG a temp sensor (like those lasers that can measure your AC/heating/skin) A laser that can measure distance, like a golf scope.
A motion sensor etc. (I still dont know why someone hasnt used the camera to detect differences in frames and create an iSecurity app that starts recording when there's motion)
If they added more sensors, you'd allow app makers to go wild and take it to the next level.
If the iPad was underwhelming, I fear the next iPhone will be too.
Just for the discussion, I'll call it the 4G iPhone.
After the iPad disappointed with no front camera, no iChat, no Adobe Flash, no multi-tasking, I think it bodes very grimly for the 4G.
I dont think we'll see the front camera, nor iChat, nor Adobe flash.
I don't think we'll see a faster processor as companies do not want to make apps for 3 processor speeds and various memory configs. When the 3GS came out, I thought there would be a ton of new apps that would be "3GS only" but that didn't happen. Companies want to include the entire market, not just make an app for the 4G people. So a faster processor or more memory will mean what? Nothing. The 3GS is fine in terms of speed. Plus wouldn't a faster proc just heat up more and drain battery faster?
What we will see is what the hardware leaks confirmed, a 5Megp camera and a LED flash. The screen wont change at all, due to cost and existing apps.
Possibly HD video recording as well (if the processor/video proc can handle it).
So if your a 3GS person, the diff between 3 mp and 5pm is nothing. Most of us post our pics to Facebook and people are looking at 400X resolution images, not 3000X3000. Who needs to clog up the network uploading giant picture files?
So that 3GS person will upgrade for... a flash? Really? A flash that phones 10 yrs ago had (free phones mind you). $299 for a Flash?
Maybe some more colors? Maybe a minimum 32 gig in size?
I think iPhone has reached a plateau on terms of features/hardware and 'wow' factor.
I hope they come up with some 'wow' factor, but I don't see it.
And yes as everyone has said, the 3G to 3GS was basically 0 changes except for video recording, which again free phones 8 yrs ago could do. Apps were not created to take advantage of the speed/memory.
The only feature I want to see is FOLDERS. I want my "Games" and "Music" folders so my apps can live an organized existence and not on 900 pages. (And how about optional 'tagging' so if I download a game, it automatically goes into my Games folder)
They should also allow us to choose 1 app to multi-task at a time, and it can warn us every time we go to turn on the phone that the app is running and draining battery.
Now if they really want to go to the next level they need to figure out how to add more sensors. EG a temp sensor (like those lasers that can measure your AC/heating/skin) A laser that can measure distance, like a golf scope.
A motion sensor etc. (I still dont know why someone hasnt used the camera to detect differences in frames and create an iSecurity app that starts recording when there's motion)
If they added more sensors, you'd allow app makers to go wild and take it to the next level.
If the iPad was underwhelming, I fear the next iPhone will be too.
Absolutely not. For a holistic system point of view it doesn't matter if there area 1 or 4 or two microhamsters on nanoscale treadmill .... as long as it is fast enough from the user point of view.
It isn't like it was a old style Detroit new muscle car presentation.... this car has 485 HP engine in it and can go 210 mph down hill in a hurricane.
The primarily issue can the device do the 6-7 things they said it was extremely good at. You only need just enough horsepower to do those things very well. Much more than that is a waste ( especially since it is mobile and want max battery life).
Besides getting into a "I got more super mega horsepower" is a trap. The bigger power budget Atom and CoreDuo CPUs are going to do better. You just have to plug them in.
Previously it was often the case the Touch got the faster processor/graphics first and then the phone got it later.
I think it will most likely still follow the same pattern .
Processor/Graphics in iPad will trickle down to the Touch which then tickles down into the iPhone.
That allows Apple to get a huge run on the processor over that about 3-4 year lifespan in volume production.
They may throw the A4 at the iPhone and the Touch to kick start things. Depends on what their expected pipeline is for the next gen after this one. A slight tweak may go into the Phone/Touch, but not really a big step.
Take a look at the iPad teardown when it appears. If the main circuit board is very small and looks like it is close to fitting in a phone body ... then shouldn't take long.
Apples stock has taken a beating since the iPad launch. Just about $15 a share loss. It looks like Wall Street doesn't think that it is going to sell.
Foxnews.com ran a lead story asking if Apple has lost its mojo. Cnn.com ran a headline story listing the 10 things the iPad is missing. Msnbc.com (not that anyone actually watches that channel or site) called it "meh". The ever loving media is not in love with the iPad.
But this is the best review ever!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQnT0zp8Ya4
Foxnews.com ran a lead story asking if Apple has lost its mojo. Cnn.com ran a headline story listing the 10 things the iPad is missing. Msnbc.com (not that anyone actually watches that channel or site) called it "meh". The ever loving media is not in love with the iPad.
But this is the best review ever!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQnT0zp8Ya4
>.. really was a 4 core chip Steve Jobs would not mention that during presentation
no, I'm surprised that Jobs even mentioned that it was 1GHz. I don't think Apple likes to compete on specs (It'll lose, there will alway be a competitor with better specs for cheaper price).
> , quad core does not make any sense for mobile devices especially the ones running iPhone OS which severely limits multitasking
Good point. There's pros (and cons) for multi-cores not strictly related to multitasking (do a google or wiki). The Cortex multi-core design, however, were specifically made for mobile and low powered devices.
I think it's nearly inevitable that with this chip, and it's likelihood that it'll be in the next iPhone, that iPhone OS 4.0 will support multitasking.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QuickTransit
The technology has been used to allow SGI Itanium 2 systems to run old MIPS binaries, IBM Power5 systems to run x86 Linux binaries and SUN Solaris version to run SPARC binaries on Solaris x86/x86-64/Itanium./QUOTE]
Did you ever hear of Rosetta?
I don't believe we'll see the A4 in the next iPhone.
The rumour was that the PA Semi engineers were split into 2 teams, 1 working on the iPad processor and another on iPod/iPhone processors.
The 25Whr battery is an order greater than that in the iPhone and yes whilst the screen is a major power drain, i think the chip's utilisation at 1Ghz is probably in the range of 500mwatt to 1 watt.
I think we'll see an A2 or whatever branded chip probably using around 200-400mWatts... Note all my numbers are peak utilisation, i have no doubt the 1 month standby of the iPad is down to PA Semi's extensive experience in very low idle utilisation chips. This also bodes well for the iPhone 4 standby time.
M.
The rumour was that the PA Semi engineers were split into 2 teams, 1 working on the iPad processor and another on iPod/iPhone processors.
The 25Whr battery is an order greater than that in the iPhone and yes whilst the screen is a major power drain, i think the chip's utilisation at 1Ghz is probably in the range of 500mwatt to 1 watt.
I think we'll see an A2 or whatever branded chip probably using around 200-400mWatts... Note all my numbers are peak utilisation, i have no doubt the 1 month standby of the iPad is down to PA Semi's extensive experience in very low idle utilisation chips. This also bodes well for the iPhone 4 standby time.
M.
They initially licensed embedded GPUs from AMD/ATI, and later bought AMD's handheld graphics division.
That applies to most SoCs, though.
Tegra2 is clocked up to 1GHz.
i think it would still benefit. the iPhone OS runs many tasks simultaneously and even the main Application exists from a couple of threads (several of them just appear by using Cocoa )
and aren't cpu's more efficient when they are idle or almost idle?
maybe they use 4 corse and an already under-clocked cpu
More likely the Acorn A4, which was ARM (Acorn Risc Machines) poweredi thought they got the idea from the audi a4.
"the article incorrectly states that the Qualcomm Snapdragon and nVidia Tegra were also based on this design. Those processors were based on the Cortex A8 "
Now BSN are rubbish but the Tegra 1 was an ARM11 device, and the Tegra 2 is a dual-core ARM Cortex A9 device. I presume he was talking about the Tegra 2, and is thus correct.
Qualcomm's Snapdragon is based upon the ARM v7 architecture (Cortex A), and lies between the A8 and A9 in implementation and performance per clock, but can clock higher. I believe the latest Snapdragons are dual-core and capable of 1.5GHz, and they're also Out of Order designs like A9, so I wouldn't rush to be denigrating the website's comment.
Now BSN are rubbish but the Tegra 1 was an ARM11 device, and the Tegra 2 is a dual-core ARM Cortex A9 device. I presume he was talking about the Tegra 2, and is thus correct.
Qualcomm's Snapdragon is based upon the ARM v7 architecture (Cortex A), and lies between the A8 and A9 in implementation and performance per clock, but can clock higher. I believe the latest Snapdragons are dual-core and capable of 1.5GHz, and they're also Out of Order designs like A9, so I wouldn't rush to be denigrating the website's comment.
Anyone else here who believes that some of the things we just do not know currently might still happen?
They might have saved one or another app and technical detail for the sales start event. to create a second WOW effect and media blizz by
.
So i guess iPad is open CL capable, the CPU is multicore, and yes, i still believe there might be a cam hidden in the bezel.
maybe it wasn't in the prototypes they presented, or maybe it was, and just no one saw it?
I did not see a single photo where one of the front sensors was visible.
They might have saved one or another app and technical detail for the sales start event. to create a second WOW effect and media blizz by
.So i guess iPad is open CL capable, the CPU is multicore, and yes, i still believe there might be a cam hidden in the bezel.
maybe it wasn't in the prototypes they presented, or maybe it was, and just no one saw it?
I did not see a single photo where one of the front sensors was visible.
My mistake! I take back my earlier comment about quad core ... I thought Tegra2 was 2GHz. Since NVidia also claims 140hr audio playback, and 16hr video, Apples A4 is probably more likely to comparable/similar to Tegra2 (ie, dual core, not quad).
... unless Apple has found some way to match power consumption, which I doubt (or at least not as likely).
In any good multimedia SoC audio and video decoding are performed by dedicated units, not by the main CPU. Thus battery life for audio/video playback can't be used to estimate power draw of the CPU core(s).
where i work no one seems to like it or want it. it's even a joke that if you ask for a new laptop the person doing the ordering says he's going to get you an iPad.
i have an iphone, someone has a touch, a Pre, blackberry, people have game consoles, etc. no one seems to figure out why they should buy this extra gizmo that doesn't really do anything new, is very limited with no flash or multi-tasking and is expensive