PowerMac and PowerBook Updates?

[JJTiger1]

Re: Re: Re: liquid cooled laptops are old hat

Originally posted by AidenShaw
It probably isn't mentioned because liquid-filled heat pipes have been used for so long it isn't worth noting....
{snippage}
The liquid in the heat pipes transfers the heat from the CPU to the radiator.

... so, we can add this freon cooling system to the heat sink, and overclock the processor...

Years ago, a chip vendor did a similar trick at a tradeshow. The cooling system was hidden under the display stand. The compressor (similar to that used in a household refridgerator) quit and the computer melted down to useless sand.

... but they had the world's fastest personal computer, even if it worked for only a few days. Set the stage for the speeds that we see today.
=-=
In a laptop: The heat dissipation grid/radiator could be built into the metal vertical display housing. A square foot (or more with a 17 inch display) of metal surface that is raised up into the open air.
... might shorten the life of the display, though.
... might spring a leak in the hinge area.
=-=
JJ

 

[daveL]

Originally posted by centauratlas
I agree, but does "about to" mean, last week or in early March or late March? And from their delivery, how long will Apple take to build the machines. My guess (based on Apple delivery times) is that mid March for IBM to ship enough volume for the 970fx xserves, plus a few weeks to get caught up with demand.

IBM is great, don't get me wrong, I just think that they haven't delivered enough volume to support 970fx xserve G5s, PM G5s, and (perhaps) PB G5s all at once.

And I agree it is good hard news, except that "about to" is undefined.

Well, "about to" is referring to the SOC (System On a Chip) that IBM has designed for Apple, not the 970FX. The context of the blurb that mentioned the SOC was ASIC production, not stock PPC processor production.

Also, the VT PM G5s are already being sold, so G5 Xserves must already be shipping to VT, at least. These are 2 GHz parts, which should be easier to come by, at this point, then 2.5 GHz parts.

I'm thinking another couple weeks, but who knows?

 

[nighthawk]

Regarding the Cooligy, their technology needs to be build directly into the processor and cannot be just added as a heatsink to any processor.

The other problem with cooling modern processors is that because the core components are so small, there is a great deal of heat that needs to be removed from a small area. This is where the Cooligy technology is suppose to exceed current cooling methods by using microchannels within the processor to pass the cool liquid through, as opposed to surface-only cooling. This would allow more heat to be disappated.

With the XServe, I do not believe that Apple has a higher profit margin than Powermacs. I think that the prices are comparible, especially if you purchase the Cluster version XServe.

Disadvantages:
- No Superdrive (or any internal optical for Cluster)
- No stock video card
- Stock hard drive is half the size as the Powermac

Advantages:
- Double stock memory (512 MB or 1GB) compared with 256 MB or 512 MB for PowerMac
- DDR400 instead of DDR333 with PowerMac
- ECC memory instead of non-ECC
- 8 GB maximum for all models
- Two Gigabit ethernet ports
- Hot Swappable drives
- Compact design (42 in a rack compared to 9 PM)
- OS X Server 10-client (Cluster) or Unlimited Client - $499 value for 10-client and $999 for Unlimited.

So if you are using it as a Server, in a Cluster or need the improved memory specs, then it is a better value than the PowerMac -- at least right now.

Plus, because of the higher R&D per unit cost, Apple is not making nearly as much profit. However, because of Virginia Tech and their famous cluster, XServe sales should go up. Especially when XGrid is implemented into more software.

 

[eSnow]

970FX power hunger...

Of note, the 970FX actually consumes a lot less energy than the 7447A. At 1.4 Ghz, it consumes a modest 12.3W (24.5W at 2.0Ghz), while the 7447A requires a full 20W at the same speed.

Somehow, I don't quite see the 7447A in a PowerBook, maybe it is intended for the iBooks.

IBM spec sheet

 

[MrSugar]

Re: 970FX power hunger...

Originally posted by eSnow
Of note, the 970FX actually consumes a lot less energy than the 7447A. At 1.4 Ghz, it consumes a modest 12.3W (24.5W at 2.0Ghz), while the 7447A requires a full 20W at the same speed.

Somehow, I don't quite see the 7447A in a PowerBook, maybe it is intended for the iBooks.

The thing people need to realize is that a g5 in a powerbook is a HUGE re-design. It's not like the power is that huge of a factor, but you have to have new motherboards which need to be designed around. New methods of placement, I bet the internals of the PB g5 are completely different than the g4. All these things, esspecially following with apple's 1" enclosure history, are going to take a LONG time to get worked out. It is not simply a matter of switching in a chip, regardless of power, the engineering to complete a g5 powerbook has to be insane.

I hope they come out around summer time, but I have no faith.... I bet it's longer.

 

[AidenShaw]

Wild heat pipe / fan assembly

Check out:

3 heat pipes going to a centrifugal blower.

It's for an 80-watt CPU in a laptop (see http://www.ixbt-labs.com/articles2/amd-athlon64-m/index.html)....

 

[eSnow]

Re: Re: 970FX power hunger...

Originally posted by MrSugar
The thing people need to realize is that a g5 in a powerbook is a HUGE re-design.

True, but Apple has been knowing they'd switch to the 970 for at least two years now, they have the XServe and PowerMac logic board and if the IBM guy talking about a 90nm SOC being produced for Apple is right , they are probably just now receiving die-shrunk system controllers.

I am getting more optimistic about an early spring release.

 

[XForge]

Too late, I was just forced to order a dual 1.8 instead of waiting for the revisions. Now we'll take shipment of the new machine the same day as the price drops $700 on that unit, betcha betcha.

 

[XForge]

Originally posted by Photorun
This week... another vague rumor, tune in next week for... more vague rumors. I'm going to go out on a limb and predict, by the end of 2004, Apple will have one of their pieces of hardware quite possibly maybe slightly faster in speed than it is as of today... but don't hold me to it.

Sorta like Homeland Security and their color-coded threat levels huh? "We've heard there may be a risk, we won't tell you exactly what or where or when, or even what you're supposed to do about it... just be scared, okay?"

 

[hayesk]

Originally posted by XForge
Too late, I was just forced to order a dual 1.8 instead of waiting for the revisions. Now we'll take shipment of the new machine the same day as the price drops $700 on that unit, betcha betcha.

Apple has a price protection guarantee. If the item has not yet shipped, they'll ship you the newer revision at the same price. If you bought a new one within ten days and it has shipped, Apple will refund the difference in price.

 

[thatwendigo]

Laptop manufacturers and Shuttle form factor desktops use heatpipes already, as some people have pointed out. What's surprising me is that nobody's brought up that Apple already uses them, too. In fact, the machine right in front of me uses a heatpipe. The eMac has a dual contact pipe that rests between the processor and the SuperDrive, running back around the monitor and up to an exhaust fan.

So we know Apple has some experience using them. Whether that translates to laptop designs is best left to people who have more engineering experience than I.

 

[daveL]

Heat Pipes

Originally posted by thatwendigo
Laptop manufacturers and Shuttle form factor desktops use heatpipes already, as some people have pointed out. What's surprising me is that nobody's brought up that Apple already uses them, too. In fact, the machine right in front of me uses a heatpipe. The eMac has a dual contact pipe that rests between the processor and the SuperDrive, running back around the monitor and up to an exhaust fan.

So we know Apple has some experience using them. Whether that translates to laptop designs is best left to people who have more engineering experience than I.

Funny, I was just thinking the same thing (Apple already using heat pipes). I've taken the keyboard off my TiBook 1 GHz and it's amazing the amount of plumbing in there.

 

[army_guy]

Cooligy is an addon HSF style device, its a piece of silicon with channels in it with liquid that shift the heat away to a radiator via a pump (solid state). This sits on top of the CPU die and since its silicon to paste to silicon the thermal characteristics are excellent, however I dont know what kind of performance you can expect but the objective was to produce a cheap reliable high performance cooling device to replace the current HSF solutions. The only problem is it needs to make contact with the CPU die NOT the heatspreader.

 

[TorbX]

Originally posted by XForge
Sorta like Homeland Security and their color-coded threat levels huh? "We've heard there may be a risk, we won't tell you exactly what or where or when, or even what you're supposed to do about it... just be scared, okay?"

Hahaha, good one! ROFL!

Americans are great fun, after all.

Later,
-TorbX.

 

[kingtj]

G5 and pro audio noise

To be perfectly honest, I think this issue has been blown a bit out of proportion. Apple does appear to be trying to solve the problems - and by many accounts, their latest power supply revision does correct most or all of it.

I have a dual 2Ghz tower that I use for some recording work (granted, not quite at the "pro" level, but I have some "pro" level gear attached to it), and I'd say that even with the older revision power supply I've got - the noise "issue" is less of an issue than what I had to deal with on many Windows PC setups.

I don't fault folks for striving for perfection -- but I'm also not sure I quite understand why PowerMac G5 users automatically thought they were entitled to a dead quiet audio input/output with just the built-in audio? In the Windows PC world, it's commonly understood that top-quality audio isn't obtained through your USB ports or through sound card chipsets integrated onto the motherboard. You purchase a "pro quality" audio card with outboard breakout box! Macs may be expected to be superior to Windows PCs, overall, but I never really saw any promises on Apple's part that on-board audio eliminated the need for 3rd. party pro-audio cards?

Originally posted by StudioGuy
And, if they do update them before the Summer, I wonder if the "Pro Audio" noise issues that have been discussed at length regarding the dual units will be solved.

That's stopping me from buying a G5 at all.

 

[daveL]

kingtj

I agree. It's just not practical, from a business point of view, for Apple to make every peripheral part of a system to meet the highest "pro" specs. If you think Apple hardware is over-priced now, what do you think it would be if the video, audio, etc. were really "studio" grade? Not everyone needs these system attributes, nor do they want to pay for them. I think Apple tries to hit the "better" quality mark, knowing that it will satisfy most of the market. If your particular application requires something more than that, well that's what expansion slots/buses are there for. Otherwise, you end up with a specialized niche product that very few can afford and even fewer actually need. Third-party add-ons exist for a reason.

 

[aswitcher]

Re: Re: 970FX power hunger...

Originally posted by MrSugar


I hope they come out around summer time, but I have no faith.... I bet it's longer.

Sigh, I hope your wrong. I hope they have been working on it for 9 months or so and are just waiting for the chips...

 

[army_guy]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: liquid cooled laptops are old hat

Originally posted by AidenShaw
Yes they do.

http://www.thermacore.com/hpt_how.htm

Technically heatpipe technology isnt liquid cooling, the common term liquid cooling in industry assumes the use of a pump, radiator and some kind of block to absorb the heat from a hot surface. Heat pipe is reliable and performs quite well but IMO doesnt compare to the flexibility and performance of a liquid cooling system.

 

[rotorblade]

Originally posted by AidenShaw
Note that the Cooligy website has diagrams and discussions of using the technology for servers and PCs, not laptops. Maybe they need to work on miniaturizing that fluid pump.

The issue with laptops really hinges on radiator size and airflow. Radiator size is dependent on many factors such as total power, delta T from fluid temperature to ambient, flow rate...etc. Portable systems are so airflow constrained that the problem is not moving the heat from the package (processor) to the radiator. The problem is getting the heat from the radiator into the air.

With limited airflow, the efficiency difference between a fluid radiator and a heat pipe radiator is not that great. As airflow increases (and the amount of dissipated power increases) in larger chassis, the efficiency difference in the radiator grows. Having a small radiator in an enclosure which provides little airflow will be the major isssue to overcome.

 

[billefrafra]

Further G5 discounts = evidence of impending release?

Saw this at the Apple Retail Store (not Education):

"Power Mac G5
Sale Price is $1,899. ($200 savings applied at Check Out)



These products are new and unopened units.


Power Mac G5 1.8GHz/512MB/160G/SuperDrive/PCI/GeFr5200
Add
$2,099.00"

I know I want it to be evidence, but maybe it IS really a good sign. . . .

 

[iPC]

Re: if they don't update

Originally posted by spinko
the powerbooks to G5 soon, I'll be getting a VAIO

Get a ThinkPad instead. Not as sexy, but a higher quality machine for sure.

 

[Ge4-ce]

Re: Further G5 discounts = evidence of impending release?

Originally posted by billefrafra
Saw this at the Apple Retail Store (not Education):

"Power Mac G5
Sale Price is $1,899. ($200 savings applied at Check Out)



These products are new and unopened units.


Power Mac G5 1.8GHz/512MB/160G/SuperDrive/PCI/GeFr5200
Add
$2,099.00"

I know I want it to be evidence, but maybe it IS really a good sign. . . .

Well.. it is rather a good sign than a bad one.. but then again.. these machines are rather old.. they were allready replaced by the DUAL 1.8 Ghz models. No-one want's those anymore if you can buy a dual for about the same price.

That's why they really have to dump them lowprice..

but I saw the Ingrammicro stock of PowerMac G5 is getting pretty low.. Same as the displays! that's often a good sign!!

 

[army_guy]

Originally posted by rotorblade
The issue with laptops really hinges on radiator size and airflow. Radiator size is dependent on many factors such as total power, delta T from fluid temperature to ambient, flow rate...etc. Portable systems are so airflow constrained that the problem is not moving the heat from the package (processor) to the radiator. The problem is getting the heat from the radiator into the air.

With limited airflow, the efficiency difference between a fluid radiator and a heat pipe radiator is not that great. As airflow increases (and the amount of dissipated power increases) in larger chassis, the efficiency difference in the radiator grows. Having a small radiator in an enclosure which provides little airflow will be the major isssue to overcome.

The cooligy was designed to replace current HSF combinations ( heat sink fan) thats it, it is not competing with liquid/phasechange/TEC cooling.

 

[neonart]

Re: Re: Further G5 discounts = evidence of impending release?

Originally posted by Ge4-ce
Well... I saw the Ingrammicro stock of PowerMac G5 is getting pretty low.. Same as the displays! that's often a good sign!!

How can you see Ingram's stock? Are you a reseller, or is there a way for regular people to see it?

 

[Soire]

Originally posted by hayesk
Apple has a price protection guarantee. If the item has not yet shipped, they'll ship you the newer revision at the same price. If you bought a new one within ten days and it has shipped, Apple will refund the difference in price.

Is this really true? If I were hypothetically waiting on the edge of my seat for the new PowerMacs to come out, but decided to order the dual 2ghz like tommorow... then what's the safety window? The couple weeks till it ships and then ten more days, within which i'm covered for cost? Or they'd ship off the newer model instead? And while I'm throwing questions around- even if they released a beefed up G5, it still wouldn't ship for at least a month or two, right? Thanks for the info though.

-Soire