I agree with the chip sequence; I don't agree with the naming of the PPC 975 the G6. I would think Apple would do what they did with the G4 and call the PPC 975 and PPC 976 enhanced G5s, saving the G6 moniker for the PPC 980 or 990.DrGruv1 said:
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PowerMac Delays
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shadowself said:
Like a lot of you, I am also waiting for the new G5 Powerbook due whenever, because that will mean a drop in price on 2nd hand machines on eBay, so I can then get a 15" G4 for 25% less than they are now. My spin on the delays are a factor of a few issues. 1. Even if they are ready, current stocks have to drop to acceptable levels for Apple to take a hit on price, 2. Historically, Apple wait for some event for their release (maximises impact and free coverage, Apple is a marketing company after all), 3. I think there may be some truth in the MOSR line of secret large US govt orders (maybe they are the ones soaking up all those 2.2 - 2.6Ghz CPU's). My reckoning on this third point is that the Virginia Tech exercise surprised the market and at $5 million it is a CHEAP supercomputer that has Unix underpinings.
Can I wait, you bet (I am using a PB5300ce bought in 1996, yeah I'm cheap and proof you can get a 8 year cycle out of a Mac)
Apple will do it when they are ready, they have the worlds attention to see just how good these new ones are going to be, they will want to make the most of it. Also me thinks that dual core stuff is within 12 - 16 months away--- WWDC 2005???? Then I'll buy a Dual 2.0 G5 from eBay
Sorry, forgot to respond to this part
I don't believe concern over a new cooling system should delay any purchases. Apple has tried, used and evolved cooling systems in Macs since the beginning. Apple's first nightmare was with the squirrel cage fans in the SEs. They were horribly noisy compared to the silent Mac Plus and earlier machines. However, compared with today's machines -- and especially the notoriously noisy later generation G4 machines -- they were very quiet.
Apple has been investigating many forms of cooling, from peltier coolers to high thermal conductivity composites (some better than copper) to heat pipes to active liquid cooling systems. Apple will introduce what is most cost effective once it has evolved far enough. The current darling in the rumor mills is active liquid cooling probably because it would be the most dramatic change for Macs. I don't expect Apple to ship active liquid cooling systems in anything other than PowerMacs, ever -- and maybe never.
Liquid cooling is not new. Supers have used it for years -- some like Crays and CDCs even flooded the entire bays with Freon (most big systems just funnel the liquid through piping as heat sinks to the boards and backplanes). If I remember correctly Seymor Cray had more cooling patents than any other type. Cooling has always been a paramount issue.
This is one of the primary reasons I believe the "delays" (if people want to call them that) are because of the glue chips and getting them into volume production. Faster and lower power CPUs are great, but they are only a fraction of the story. The glue chips need to be able to keep up, but they can't be power hogs and huge heat sources either.
wdlove said:
I don't believe concern over a new cooling system should delay any purchases. Apple has tried, used and evolved cooling systems in Macs since the beginning. Apple's first nightmare was with the squirrel cage fans in the SEs. They were horribly noisy compared to the silent Mac Plus and earlier machines. However, compared with today's machines -- and especially the notoriously noisy later generation G4 machines -- they were very quiet.
Apple has been investigating many forms of cooling, from peltier coolers to high thermal conductivity composites (some better than copper) to heat pipes to active liquid cooling systems. Apple will introduce what is most cost effective once it has evolved far enough. The current darling in the rumor mills is active liquid cooling probably because it would be the most dramatic change for Macs. I don't expect Apple to ship active liquid cooling systems in anything other than PowerMacs, ever -- and maybe never.
Liquid cooling is not new. Supers have used it for years -- some like Crays and CDCs even flooded the entire bays with Freon (most big systems just funnel the liquid through piping as heat sinks to the boards and backplanes). If I remember correctly Seymor Cray had more cooling patents than any other type. Cooling has always been a paramount issue.
This is one of the primary reasons I believe the "delays" (if people want to call them that) are because of the glue chips and getting them into volume production. Faster and lower power CPUs are great, but they are only a fraction of the story. The glue chips need to be able to keep up, but they can't be power hogs and huge heat sources either.
I think in your optimism you fail the see the reality of the situation. Apple is NOT going to jump from 2.0 GHz to 3.0GHz. No matter how much you dream, IT WILL NOT HAPPEN. Next step is 2.4-2.6 GHz, then, after some time, 3.0GHz. Yeah, it would have been nice to see a 2.5GHz-ish update by now, but there is obviously some good reason as to why it hasn't happened. Believe it or not, Apple wants an update to come out as bad as you do, because an update to them means more $,$$$,$$$.Spagolli94 said:
In hindsight, those who purchased dual 2.0 in July-Oct 2003 were the smart ones. They STILL have the king of the personal computer industry, and probably will for several more weeks. Not to mention there were no flaws with the Revision A Power Mac G5, even though some feared there would be (and consequently, did not buy). Let's just say I am glad to be counted in the camp of the smart ones with my August 2.0 G5 DP Power Mac purchase.
And if you want/need a new Power Mac G5 now but have not yet purchased, you need to wait until the next revision. You cannot make a more foolish decision than to buy right before an updated model is to come out. In 2 weeks you can have more for less money. Of course, sometimes that 2 weeks turns into 2+ months (some of you thought PM G5 updates would happen in January), so, you take a gamble waiting, but the alternative is to buy a new Power Mac now and have it outdated in one week, and then you'll know what buyer's remorse is all about.
When you think about it, Apple coming out with updated 2.4GHz G5 now in April is just past mid-way for coming out with 3.0GHz in Sept. 2004. Apple *could* have announced 2.4GHz in January and started shipping now in April. But with speed bumps, Apple typically bumps and has them available same day, with no pre-announcement. Apple only pre-annouces new products/major revisions, like the introduction of the Power Mac G5.
As for 3.0GHz G5 Power Macs, Steve will have to say something about 3.0GHz G5 at WWDC, but I can guarantee you it will not be shipping in June. Sorry.
I know many of you will consider it a broken promise if Steve ships 3.0GHz G5 AFTER August 21, 2004, the date Apple annouced dual 2.0 G5's "now shipping," but I am in the camp that cuts Steve some slack and don't take him so literal but rather feel he was indicating the timeframe when they would "about" be ready. Assuming Apple ships 2.4 GHz G5 in April 2004 and can ship 3.0GHz G5 by Oct. 2004, I think Apple is doing well with sticking to timely upgrades.shadowself said:
I am off subject I know, I visited Cupertino in 1990 and had a tour of Apple's Cray. Do they still have it or any other new Cray or such other beast? They told us at the time that 50% of its time was used for modelling the thermoplastic flows for their cases.
wannaPM said:I also think that they can't directly jump from the actual 2 GHz to 3 GHz because of at least the following matters:
- they never did such a speed bump before, probably because a similar thing could arise many technical problems
- the Xserve just started shipping with a 2 GHz clock, hence they can't sell a "desktop" that is almost 50% faster than the top server
- it would not be correct at all for the customers to sell a 3.0 GHz model at the same price a 2.0 GHz had few days before (but maybe Apple doesn't take much care of what is correct for its customers
A direct jump from 2.0 GHz to 3.0 Ghz would be large. Then again, the jump from 1.4 to 2.0 was about this large percentage-wise.
When the G4 PowerMac came out, it was out a long time before being updated. Same with the first Powerbook G4s. It seems that a change in processor families and/or design means a longer wait before the next update. I am always surprised at how many people seem to forget this when they talk about waiting for Rev. B machines... Maybe it was wishful thinking that the longer delays between A and B was before the fault of Motorola.
It HAS been weird that nothing new has been announced in the past 3 months. Maybe Apple wants to be as unpredictable as possible. For example, they might be hoping that this totally shatters the advice of not getting things at Christmas time because updates are probably just around the corner at MacWorld...
Is the glass half full, or is the glass half full?
If the current batch of rumors are correct, then Apple is waiting for current model stock to deplete while they ramp up production on the new models -- which means that they can start shipping the day of the announcement. I can dig it.
As suggested, the alternative is they are designing/building/waiting for better components, or making more room in the case for expansion in the case, or tending to cooling issues... If they are taking their time to get it right -- I can dig it.
Prompt delivery and/or a trouble free product are worth waiting for.
If the current batch of rumors are correct, then Apple is waiting for current model stock to deplete while they ramp up production on the new models -- which means that they can start shipping the day of the announcement. I can dig it.
As suggested, the alternative is they are designing/building/waiting for better components, or making more room in the case for expansion in the case, or tending to cooling issues... If they are taking their time to get it right -- I can dig it.
Prompt delivery and/or a trouble free product are worth waiting for.
info from french mac rumors site
croquer.free.fr reports :
"new PMG5 will be :
M9042LL/A
Dual 2.2 Ghz
512MB PC 3200 DDR
ATI Radeon 9600 Pro
160GB Serial ATA
3 64Bit PCI slots, 1 133Mhz, 2@ 100Mhz
M9490LL/A
Dual 2.4 Ghz
1GB PC 3200 DDR
Pioneer DVR-A07 superdrive
ATI Radeon 9800XT
250GB Serial ATA
3 267Mhz PCI-X slots backward compatible with PCI-X 1.0
M9496LL/A
Dual 2.6 Ghz
1GB PC 3200 DDR
Pioneer DVR-A07 superdrive
ATI RAdeon 9800XT
250 GB Serial ATA
3 267MHz PCI-X slots backward compatible with PCI-X 1.0"
now regarding the delay, this rumor site reports 3 reasons, but discloses only 2 :
- indeed a 2 weeks delay was due to ATI for not delivering graphic cards fast enough
- the absence of Xserve G5 Dual is simply due to a special consumer who is currently buying all the produced units : American government agencies have decided to avoid having sensitive data on windows-based server, and have decided to go for a plan extending till June 2005, and to acquire 80,000 Xserve G5 and PMG5.
- the delay was also due to a pure logistic problem, internal to Apple, and Greg Joswiak might have some problem to keep his position of hardware manager in the future..."
OK that's it, I will keep posting if there is updated info.
croquer.free.fr reports :
"new PMG5 will be :
M9042LL/A
Dual 2.2 Ghz
512MB PC 3200 DDR
ATI Radeon 9600 Pro
160GB Serial ATA
3 64Bit PCI slots, 1 133Mhz, 2@ 100Mhz
M9490LL/A
Dual 2.4 Ghz
1GB PC 3200 DDR
Pioneer DVR-A07 superdrive
ATI Radeon 9800XT
250GB Serial ATA
3 267Mhz PCI-X slots backward compatible with PCI-X 1.0
M9496LL/A
Dual 2.6 Ghz
1GB PC 3200 DDR
Pioneer DVR-A07 superdrive
ATI RAdeon 9800XT
250 GB Serial ATA
3 267MHz PCI-X slots backward compatible with PCI-X 1.0"
now regarding the delay, this rumor site reports 3 reasons, but discloses only 2 :
- indeed a 2 weeks delay was due to ATI for not delivering graphic cards fast enough
- the absence of Xserve G5 Dual is simply due to a special consumer who is currently buying all the produced units : American government agencies have decided to avoid having sensitive data on windows-based server, and have decided to go for a plan extending till June 2005, and to acquire 80,000 Xserve G5 and PMG5.
- the delay was also due to a pure logistic problem, internal to Apple, and Greg Joswiak might have some problem to keep his position of hardware manager in the future..."
OK that's it, I will keep posting if there is updated info.
365 said:
Within a year? More than acceptable. The only complaint I would have id that the price of the current line up should have gone down by a few hundred dollars. other than that, 1 GHz jumps per year in the PowerMac line is fine by me. We're not struggling with G4's here anymore.
ImAlwaysRight said:I think in your optimism you fail the see the reality of the situation. Apple is NOT going to jump from 2.0 GHz to 3.0GHz. No matter how much you dream, IT WILL NOT HAPPEN. Next step is 2.4-2.6 GHz, then, after some time, 3.0GHz. Yeah, it would have been nice to see a 2.5GHz-ish update by now, but there is obviously some good reason as to why it hasn't happened. Believe it or not, Apple wants an update to come out as bad as you do, because an update to them means more $,$$$,$$$.
In hindsight, those who purchased dual 2.0 in July-Oct 2003 were the smart ones. They STILL have the king of the personal computer industry, and probably will for several more weeks. Not to mention there were no flaws with the Revision A Power Mac G5, even though some feared there would be (and consequently, did not buy). Let's just say I am glad to be counted in the camp of the smart ones with my August 2.0 G5 DP Power Mac purchase.
And if you want/need a new Power Mac G5 now but have not yet purchased, you need to wait until the next revision. You cannot make a more foolish decision than to buy right before an updated model is to come out. In 2 weeks you can have more for less money. Of course, sometimes that 2 weeks turns into 2+ months (some of you thought PM G5 updates would happen in January), so, you take a gamble waiting, but the alternative is to buy a new Power Mac now and have it outdated in one week, and then you'll know what buyer's remorse is all about.
When you think about it, Apple coming out with updated 2.4GHz G5 now in April is just past mid-way for coming out with 3.0GHz in Sept. 2004. Apple *could* have announced 2.4GHz in January and started shipping now in April. But with speed bumps, Apple typically bumps and has them available same day, with no pre-announcement. Apple only pre-annouces new products/major revisions, like the introduction of the Power Mac G5.
As for 3.0GHz G5 Power Macs, Steve will have to say something about 3.0GHz G5 at WWDC, but I can guarantee you it will not be shipping in June. Sorry.
If someone skipped reading this long post, read it now. It's the voice of reason.
Good news for Apple and the rest of us. Bad if you are hanging out for one. I wonder what discount they got.eric67 said:
I couldn't agree more. Great post, ImAlwaysRight!the future said:If someone skipped reading this long post, read it now. It's the voice of reason.ImAlwaysRight said:
GigaWire said:
well you're easily pleased then, to be honest once I get my hands on a new G5 I couldn't care less if they only update every three years, I'm just getting desperate for a new machine. I've been using a 500mhz G3 iBook since December when I sold my dual G4 "wind-tunnel" ready for the January updates I even bought a HP Pentium 4 PC a few weeks back to put me on until the G5's arrived. It was faster ( and cheaper ) than any Mac I've ever owned but what can I say about XP.. anyway that lasted about 7 days before it went on eBay now I just want price reductions or upgrades, is it too much to ask.. I'm even telling myself that the PC wasn't that bad and find myself visiting hp.co.uk check this out....this is just verizons version of the wireless network. Dell is putting the chips in their new computers for a cost of like $45.
http://www.verizonwireless.com/b2c/mobileoptions/broadband/index.jsp?action=broadbandAccess
http://www.verizonwireless.com/b2c/mobileoptions/broadband/index.jsp?action=broadbandAccess
How far away is the 1 year mark to the promised 3GHz. It seems to me that we are getting close. If these new rumored machines come in at around 2.5 GHz and we are relatively close to the promised 3 GHz who would really buy now and not wait for that much more power? I know a lot of people didn't buy a G5 because rev B was only a few months away in January 2004. Well if these same people had known that April would come without an update how many of them would have purchased a G5 instead of waiting? I debated the issue and realized that the extra speed the dual 2 G5 offered over my dual 1 G4s would pay for itself in one video project I saw no reason to wait. With many video projects under it's belt the G5 has definitely earned its keep.
My prediction - 3 GHz G5 one year from the G5 introduction and nothing in-between.
I don't know what I would do now if I was still waiting. I'd either hold out a bit longer for 3 GHz or buy a refurbished Dual 2 G5 for $2,400 from the apple store now.
My prediction - 3 GHz G5 one year from the G5 introduction and nothing in-between.
I don't know what I would do now if I was still waiting. I'd either hold out a bit longer for 3 GHz or buy a refurbished Dual 2 G5 for $2,400 from the apple store now.
nextgenmac said:
You're confused. Dell offers regular 802.11g (like apple) for $45. They do offer a GPRS card with an AT&T contract for about $150. Frankly, this is a terrible deal because you can get a faster card (EDGE) from AT&T directly for free with a 2-yr contract.
Verizon has a card that works in Macs. The driver is available here:
http://ramp.ucsd.edu/~bellardo/darwin/airprime/
PPC 970 Maxing out at 2 GHz
I wonder if the PPC 970 maxes out at 2.0 GHz or if PMs being built right have underclocked cpus. If IBM were able to produce 2+ GHz PPC 970 in quantities, why did Apple not speed bump PMs? My guess is there are two possible reasons:
-The PM design might not be capable of keeping cool 970's running at more than 2 GHz.
-Unlike PC makers Apple does usually not just put in cpus that have slightly faster clock speed than their predecessors. So they just wanted to keep one line up. But it would be foolish not to upgrade the current machines if for what ever reason the next major update is still months away.
My guess still is we'll see Rev. B at WWDC. But I'm afraid they won't hit 3 GHz until then. If we're lucky, 3 GHz PMs will be announced at MWSF along with PB G5 and iMac G5. That would be an interesting keynote, though.
I wonder if the PPC 970 maxes out at 2.0 GHz or if PMs being built right have underclocked cpus. If IBM were able to produce 2+ GHz PPC 970 in quantities, why did Apple not speed bump PMs? My guess is there are two possible reasons:
-The PM design might not be capable of keeping cool 970's running at more than 2 GHz.
-Unlike PC makers Apple does usually not just put in cpus that have slightly faster clock speed than their predecessors. So they just wanted to keep one line up. But it would be foolish not to upgrade the current machines if for what ever reason the next major update is still months away.
My guess still is we'll see Rev. B at WWDC. But I'm afraid they won't hit 3 GHz until then. If we're lucky, 3 GHz PMs will be announced at MWSF along with PB G5 and iMac G5. That would be an interesting keynote, though.
Apple Has No Track Record Of Ever Meeting Any Promised Deadlines
Why do you think the dual 3 GHz G5 will come out before San Francisco MacWorld 2005? I certainly don't. That date would be in keeping with Apple's usual delay in fulfillment of any promised shipping date.
I feel certain the NAB Event April 18 will be the Rev. B G5 announcement. That's about 8 months since the original g5 shipping time. As to when they will really ship - anybody's guess. This gives Apple only 8 months 'til SF MacWorld 2005. That is the realistic date to expect the dual 3 GHz G5 PowerMacs to ship - not this year.
Apple Has No Track Record Of Ever Meeting Any Promised Deadlines.agreenster said:
Why do you think the dual 3 GHz G5 will come out before San Francisco MacWorld 2005? I certainly don't. That date would be in keeping with Apple's usual delay in fulfillment of any promised shipping date.
I feel certain the NAB Event April 18 will be the Rev. B G5 announcement. That's about 8 months since the original g5 shipping time. As to when they will really ship - anybody's guess. This gives Apple only 8 months 'til SF MacWorld 2005. That is the realistic date to expect the dual 3 GHz G5 PowerMacs to ship - not this year.
B!nej said:You're right, but I was actually thinking about all the QuickSilver & Sawtooth G4 owners - I see a lot more of them around than I see MDDs. I wouldn't think most MDD dual 1.25 and 1.42 owners would be in the market for a new Mac for another few months yet, but I guess there could be a bunch of late G4 owners champing at the bit for a brushed metal finish... ?
... me for example ... dual 450 mhz powermac ... and even i have to do my business on this machine i won't buy a g5 rev.a ... so long, i get two new and fast internal 120 gb ide hds from hitachi for my good old pm ... off-topic: anybody made experiences with internal ide raid configurations?
.a