PowerMac G4 Cube CPU, VRM, L3 upgrades

[Vega20]

Hi folks, looking to polish my rework skills and have no better torture subject than my G4 Cube. Probably want to do the whole works: CPU, VRM, L3 Cache, etc and would like to make sure everything is compatible.

1. For the CPU the obvious choice is the Freescale 7448. Will any revision work? NewerTech used the QGZ0652 but they've disappeared off the face of the planet. Also, what is the PLL config for the standard 1.7ghz or higher?

2. There was a fellow in Japan a while back selling VRM upgrades, is that still the case?

3. Is the L3 even replaceable on the Cube? It looks like an SMT component unlike the B&W, Mirror Door, etc.

If this was 10 or even 5 years ago it probably would have been easier and cheaper to track down a NewerTech or Sonnet card but alas its 2022 and they all left to get milk and never came back lol. Many thanks for the help!

Edit: Also am still using the cruddy Rage 128 Pro. What cards are the best/not selling for exorbitant prices these days?

 

[DearthnVader]

Hi folks, looking to polish my rework skills and have no better torture subject than my G4 Cube. Probably want to do the whole works: CPU, VRM, L3 Cache, etc and would like to make sure everything is compatible.

1. For the CPU the obvious choice is the Freescale 7448. Will any revision work? NewerTech used the QGZ0652 but they've disappeared off the face of the planet. Also, what is the PLL config for the standard 1.7ghz or higher?

2. There was a fellow in Japan a while back selling VRM upgrades, is that still the case?

3. Is the L3 even replaceable on the Cube? It looks like an SMT component unlike the B&W, Mirror Door, etc.

If this was 10 or even 5 years ago it probably would have been easier and cheaper to track down a NewerTech or Sonnet card but alas its 2022 and they all left to get milk and never came back lol. Many thanks for the help!

Edit: Also am still using the cruddy Rage 128 Pro. What cards are the best/not selling for exorbitant prices these days?

The 7448 doesn't support an L3 cache, it has 1 MB L2 on chip.

I don't know of any source for VRM upgrades.

As far a s graphics, if you don't need OS 9 support, a flashed PC GeForce 6200 is your best bet, otherwise a Radeon 7500 is a good card that will have OS 9 support and work in a Cube.

 

[Vega20]

The 7448 doesn't support an L3 cache, it has 1 MB L2 on chip.

I don't know of any source for VRM upgrades.

As far a s graphics, if you don't need OS 9 support, a flashed PC GeForce 6200 is your best bet, otherwise a Radeon 7500 is a good card that will have OS 9 support and work in a Cube.

Awesome, wan't quite sure on that.

It looks like a 256mb GeForce 6200 is about $40 USD which is perfect. Here or Macelite probably has the ROM. Many thanks!

 

[Jiggly Billy]

1: Cross reference the TDP of whatever chip you choose. Technically a non-Cube specific upgrade can be used but will run insanely hot requiring a fan and VRM upgrade, and even then you may run into thermal issues due to packaging. Mine has a Cube specific upgrade, with an upgraded VRM (mainly just wanted to eliminate any potential power issues down the road), and has a fan in the bottom. Still runs quite warm!

2: https://artmix.com/products/product/stratos-technology-powermac-g4-cube-high-power-vrm-unit/
This is the only current option available, some CPU upgrades came with either relocation cables or different VRM units entirely but are very rare.

3: This is like any other AGP based G4 where it is part of the CPU board

For video cards, the holy grail of OS 9 & 10 compatibility is the Geforce 3. Rare as hell! But fits perfectly with the bracket. The only 3 cards that can use the factory bracket are the Rage 128, any GeForce 2MX (one from a standard G4 will work, just has a different heatsink than the Cube specific one), and the Geforce 3. The Radeon 7500 will work with the Cube, but the bracket is *slightly* different and can't be interchanged. The 6200 is OK, but VGA only and that's a hard pass for me as I wanted to use the period correct Apple Cinema Displays

 

[DearthnVader]

1: Cross reference the TDP of whatever chip you choose. Technically a non-Cube specific upgrade can be used but will run insanely hot requiring a fan and VRM upgrade, and even then you may run into thermal issues due to packaging. Mine has a Cube specific upgrade, with an upgraded VRM (mainly just wanted to eliminate any potential power issues down the road), and has a fan in the bottom. Still runs quite warm!

2: https://artmix.com/products/product/stratos-technology-powermac-g4-cube-high-power-vrm-unit/
This is the only current option available, some CPU upgrades came with either relocation cables or different VRM units entirely but are very rare.

3: This is like any other AGP based G4 where it is part of the CPU board

For video cards, the holy grail of OS 9 & 10 compatibility is the Geforce 3. Rare as hell! But fits perfectly with the bracket. The only 3 cards that can use the factory bracket are the Rage 128, any GeForce 2MX (one from a standard G4 will work, just has a different heatsink than the Cube specific one), and the Geforce 3. The Radeon 7500 will work with the Cube, but the bracket is *slightly* different and can't be interchanged. The 6200 is OK, but VGA only and that's a hard pass for me as I wanted to use the period correct Apple Cinema Displays

Who said the GF 6200 was VGA only?

DVI works just fine.

 

[Jiggly Billy]

Who said the GF 6200 was VGA only?

DVI works just fine.

DVI only works as analog, you can double check the listings for units that modders sell on eBay if you doubt me.

 

[DearthnVader]

DVI only works as analog, you can double check the listings for units that modders sell on eBay if you doubt me.

Because they don't know what they are doing, they didn't create these roms more did they bother to look for the tools that did, they only seek quick profits off the work of others.

It's just unavoidable, but I made the 64k roms public anyway, because it helped people that wanted to DYI and the more know age that is shared the more people can add to it.

 

[Vega20]

1: Cross reference the TDP of whatever chip you choose. Technically a non-Cube specific upgrade can be used but will run insanely hot requiring a fan and VRM upgrade, and even then you may run into thermal issues due to packaging. Mine has a Cube specific upgrade, with an upgraded VRM (mainly just wanted to eliminate any potential power issues down the road), and has a fan in the bottom. Still runs quite warm!

2: https://artmix.com/products/product/stratos-technology-powermac-g4-cube-high-power-vrm-unit/
This is the only current option available, some CPU upgrades came with either relocation cables or different VRM units entirely but are very rare.

I ended up finding an off brand 1.6ghz Sonnet ST on Yahoo Auctions (will upgrade to a 7448) and ordered that VRM so thermals should be a bit better than the stock board with a 80mm fan. @DearthnVader, I neglected to mention it's connected a 15" ADC monitor, will probably keep an eye out for a Geforce 3 which has guaranteed compatibility unless theirs something better. Anyways many thanks for the help from both of you!

 

[flyproductions]

DVI only works as analog, you can double check the listings for units that modders sell on eBay if you doubt me.

Yes! As DearthnVader said, it is just not true! 6200 run DVI fine. Even Dual Displays with DVI (digital for sure!) and VGA connected. The only thing, they cannot do, is Dual Link. So no 30" Cinema Display with native resolution. But the 23" Alu works fine.

 

[flyproductions]

For video cards, the holy grail of OS 9 & 10 compatibility is the Geforce 3. Rare as hell! But fits perfectly with the bracket.

...and i just wouldn't call a GF3 a Cube-card. At least by far not the best of them. If getting load, it runs way too hot and draws too much juice. Similar goes for the Radeon 9000pro/8500. Therefor it has a big and loud unregulated fan on it, which i personally most dislike in particular in the Cube. Does not support Dual-Displays. And finally does not support more recent shaders. So no Core Image support...

...and, if it's just for the bracket, this can be easily DYOnd. Just don't do the first step!

 

[LightBulbFun]

...and i just wouldn't call a GF3 a Cube-card. At least by far not the best of them. If getting load, it runs way too hot and draws too much juice. Similar goes for the Radeon 9000pro/8500. Therefor it has a big and loud unregulated fan on it, which i personally most dislike in particular in the Cube. Does not support Dual-Displays. And finally does not support more recent shaders. So no Core Image support...

...and, if it's just for the bracket, this can be easily DYOnd. Just don't do the first step!

Id argue the GeForce3 is one of the best Cube cards, not for Mac OS X heavy cubes, but for those running OS 9 it very much is, I cant think of a better card out there for OS 9 performance

@bunnspecial has one in a modestly upgraded 800Mhz G4 cube driving a 17 inch ADC studio display CRT Display, which is in terms of power draw is the worst ADC displays you can jab into a cube

and AFAIK he has been happily gaming on it for a good few years now without any issues

also as an aside the Mac Radeon 9000 Pro is a passive card...

and for retaining full ADC compatibility as well, the GeForce3 is the best cube card, without getting into the very rare exotic that is the Radeon 9700 Pro MDD card

its also notable in that the GeForce3 fits into a stock cube without a VRM move and is fully compatible with an existing Cube IO bracket

so in terms of plug and play you cant get much better then this!

 

[flyproductions]

@bunnspecial has one in a modestly upgraded 800Mhz G4 cube driving a 17 inch ADC studio display CRT Display, which is in terms of power draw is the worst ADC displays you can jab into a cube

Yes! It has ADC. That’s another point on the plus-side.

also as an aside the Mac Radeon 9000 Pro is a passive card...

Yes sure! That fan-part only matches the GF3 (and somehow the 8500). Sorry, if this was missunderstandable.

and for retaining full ADC compatibility as well, the GeForce3 is the best cube card, without getting into the very rare exotic that is the Radeon 9700 Pro MDD card

As mentioned elsewhere: At least to me, the 9700, even the Mac-Edition with the ADC power connector, is in no thinkable way a Cube-card. Might be the safest way to grill the VRM, the mainboard or both.

so in terms of plug and play you cant get much better then this!

...if you can get one! 😝

I don't know when was the last time i did see one of these beauties on ebay. Just as easy to get these days as a dual 7448 card.

 

[DearthnVader]

Id argue the GeForce3 is one of the best Cube cards, not for Mac OS X heavy cubes, but for those running OS 9 it very much is, I cant think of a better card out there for OS 9 performance

@bunnspecial has one in a modestly upgraded 800Mhz G4 cube driving a 17 inch ADC studio display CRT Display, which is in terms of power draw is the worst ADC displays you can jab into a cube

and AFAIK he has been happily gaming on it for a good few years now without any issues

also as an aside the Mac Radeon 9000 Pro is a passive card...

and for retaining full ADC compatibility as well, the GeForce3 is the best cube card, without getting into the very rare exotic that is the Radeon 9700 Pro MDD card

its also notable in that the GeForce3 fits into a stock cube without a VRM move and is fully compatible with an existing Cube IO bracket

so in terms of plug and play you cant get much better then this!

It's just finding a working GF3 and not paying out the nose for it and hoping the fan hasn't been dead for years of use.

If you need OS 9, the GF3 is one of the better cards that can still be found, sometimes.

As the OP said, ADC, so that's pretty limited to the OEM GF3, GF2, Radeon 7500 and Rage 128 Pro.

Of those the 7500 is really the easiest to find and will give the best bang for the buck, tho you need to fashion a Cube bracket for it.

 

[LightBulbFun]

Yes! It has ADC. That’s another point on the plus-side.

Yes sure! That fan-part only matches the GF3 (and somehow the 8500). Sorry, if this was missunderstandable.

As mentioned elsewhere: At least to me, the 9700, even the Mac-Edition with the ADC power connector, is in no thinkable way a Cube-card. Might be the safest way to grill the VRM, the mainboard or both.

...if you can get one! 😝

I don't know when was the last time i did see one of these beauties on ebay. Just as easy to get these days as a dual 7448 card.

It's just finding a working GF3 and not paying out the nose for it and hoping the fan hasn't been dead for years of use.

If you need OS 9, the GF3 is one of the better cards that can still be found, sometimes.

As the OP said, ADC, so that's pretty limited to the OEM GF3, GF2, Radeon 7500 and Rage 128 Pro.

Of those the 7500 is really the easiest to find and will give the best bang for the buck, tho you need to fashion a Cube bracket for it.

all you had to do was Ask! its even brand new in box so no knackered fan to worry about

Apple Nvidia GeForce 3 64MB TOP AGP Graphics Card for Power Mac G4 Cube | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Apple Nvidia GeForce 3 64MB TOP AGP Graphics Card for Power Mac G4 Cube at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

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you might have to put your haggling skills to the test with that best offer button mind...


if the OP does not mind doing a VRM move then the Radeon 9000 and GeForce4 MX are options as well (and if he gets the aforementioned VRM upgrade from Japan then he does not have to even worry about this!)

also another one for the plug and play list is the original OEM ATI Radeon, this was even a BTO option on the G4 cube

 

[DearthnVader]

all you had to do was Ask! its even brand new in box so no knackered fan to worry about

I see your daydreaming price and raise you my own;-)

Apple Mac Edition ATI Radeon 9800 Pro AGP Video Graphics Card In Retail Box NEW | eBay

Since grading is so subjective we do not get into this matter. Only what is pictured is included (or specifically stated above).

www.ebay.com

 

[flyproductions]

all you had to do was Ask! its even brand new in box so no knackered fan to worry about

Apple Nvidia GeForce 3 64MB TOP AGP Graphics Card for Power Mac G4 Cube | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Apple Nvidia GeForce 3 64MB TOP AGP Graphics Card for Power Mac G4 Cube at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

Oh, in that case, i'd prefer to get a nice RX 6600xt for my main machine and have a beer or two for the 100 € left.

 

[flyproductions]

if the OP does not mind doing a VRM move then the Radeon 9000...

9000pro, 7500 as well as a 2MX, all with ADC, are also still parts of my collection...

...but, as i see from your posts, the most desierable parts are missing! 😥

...and to the posts above: Wasn't the flashed X800 the only card ever for which only analog trough the DVI worked?

 

[LightBulbFun]

9000pro, 7500 as well as a 2MX, all with ADC, are also still parts of my collection...

indeed Mr Vader had mentioned those, I was just mentions those left out in his post

...but, as i see from your posts, the most desierable parts are missing! 😥

not sure i quite follow there?

...and to the posts above: Wasn't the flashed X800 the only card ever for which only analog trough the DVI worked?

the GeForce FX 5200 is another one, in that the public ROM's only have VGA enabled (but private ROM's had DVI enabled)

MacVidCards did make a post on which bits to flip round in ROM to enable DVI but even he himself could not remember which it was exactly

not that DVI is much good on those cards because of their weak TMDS transmitter, but I do still want to play with that and see if I can get anywhere with MVC's post

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/pci-fx5200-success.1850168/?post=20765413#post-20765413

@mikiotty mentions inverting 2 values but I dont know if my invert he mentions swap their positions in ROM around or byte swap the both of them

or if it swapping them round or byte swapping them depends on the card at hand (I have a Dual DVI FX 5200 I have been meaning to try this on, its not one with external transmitters sadly)



some other ATI cards also produce VGA only output when flashed like the FireGL X1 and Radeon 9600, 9800 XT (when flashed with a Mac 9800 XT ROM), all depends on how the port mapping in ROM (and for ATI Cards the OS's frame buffer personality as well) matches up with the cards physical port layout

(I have always wanted to try and flash a FireGL X2 with a Mac 9800 XT ROM to see what result that would produce)

 

[flyproductions]

not sure i quite follow there?

In particular, the green PCP short ADC equipped 9700pro would really be nice to have! Even with no real use for it... 😉

the GeForce FX 5200 is another one, in that the public ROM's only have VGA enabled (but private ROM's had DVI enabled)

I even have one of those ASUS Dual DVI Ultras (including the special ROM to get it working). Someone really should have locked me of ebay, 15 years ago! 😝

not that DVI is much good on those cards because of their weak TMDS transmitter, but I do still want to play with that and see if I can get anywhere with MVC's post

Have a nice collection of ROMs too. 😉

or if it swapping them round or byte swapping them depends on the card at hand (I have a Dual DVI FX 5200 I have been meaning to try this on, its not one with external transmitters sadly)

Is this one of the cheap ones with the green PCB and passive cooling, that have been around alot for a while?

some other ATI cards also produce VGA only output when flashed like the FireGL X1 and Radeon 9600, 9800 XT (when flashed with a Mac 9800 XT ROM), all depends on how the port mapping in ROM (and for ATI Cards the OS's frame buffer personality as well) matches up with the cards physical port layout

Ah yes, this framebuffer thing wasn't known much about then. Experimented with this to activate the second DVI of 7950 instead of Mini-DP lately.

 

[Vega20]

If you need OS 9, the GF3 is one of the better cards that can still be found, sometimes.

Exactly, I'd like to keep my OS 9/Sorbet Leopard Dualboot.

Apple Nvidia GeForce 3 64MB TOP AGP Graphics Card for Power Mac G4 Cube | eBay​

Been eyeing that one for a while but sweet mother of mercy that's pricey.... Who knew a card can cost more than the entire G4 Cube and that's up there lol. The Geforce 3 Ti 200 and Ti 500 still pop up on eBay now and then but I've never seen a rom and highly doubt they'd fit.

if the OP does not mind doing a VRM move then the Radeon 9000...

Ordered the Japanese one a week or so ago for the G4 7448 (would love any ideas on where to find one) and if I can't find anything else I'll absolutely move it.

(when flashed with a Mac 9800 XT ROM)

Your profile picture is that said 9800 XT right? It may just be wise to dump OS 9 support and jump on the G5 era cards. The gargantuan ADC-DVI adapter is fairly available too.

 

[flyproductions]

Your profile picture is that said 9800 XT right? It may just be wise to dump OS 9 support and jump on the G5 era cards. The gargantuan ADC-DVI adapter is fairly available too.

No. The profile picture is a (of course flashed) Geforce 6800xt, made to physically fit to the cube with some homemade bracket and molex-relocation.

Sorry for the very weak picture quality!

...but this was absolutely experimental! Mandatory needed a stronger VRM. I have a Giga-C, quite similar to what you have ordered. With Apple's one the machine instantly shuts down as soon as any 3D- or OpenGL load happens. Needs VRM relocation. And - even with a cooling like that - inside the closed case overheated within minutes as there is no room to suck fresh air from.

Performancewise, the card is by a small margin stronger than a Radeon 9800pro, but some more modern architecture. But absolutely not working as an every day/normal use solution. ...as the 9700/9800s are! All i ever heard of so far where running in the PowerLogix enclosure (which imho is esthetically a big step backwards but provides better cooling). Some of them even had their own external powersupply.

 

[flyproductions]

It may just be wise to dump OS 9 support and jump on the G5 era cards.

Yes! There is just no option which is satisfying the needs for both. GF3 might be the best card for Classic. But for Sorbet you are far better off with a 6200. If it's just for the CoreImage support.

 

[LightBulbFun]

In particular, the green PCP short ADC equipped 9700pro would really be nice to have! Even with no real use for it... 😉

I even have one of those ASUS Dual DVI Ultras (including the special ROM to get it working). Someone really should have locked me of ebay, 15 years ago! 😝

Have a nice collection of ROMs too. 😉

Is this one of the cheap ones with the green PCB and passive cooling, that have been around alot for a while?

Ah yes, this framebuffer thing wasn't known much about then. Experimented with this to activate the second DVI of 7950 instead of Mini-DP lately.

thats pretty cool that you got one of those Asus Dual DVI cards! and a collection of ROM's along with the 6600 ROM's its really awesome to see someone still has a copy of all this, so much has been lost to time sadly!


a card much like it that I really want to see try and flashed is the Quadro FX 600 PCI its a Dual DVI PCI card, and like Apple FX 5200 Ultra it has dual external TMDS transmitters (the Asus card only has the 1 sadly)

so if it can be flashed it would make for a very nice G3 blue and white card or just additional PCI Video card in general!

indeed my FX 5200 Dual DVI card is one of those, the sort that have "64MB 128MB 256MB" with check boxes mines only a 64MB card

Its a curious card because I did not think that the NV34 GPU had dual TMDS transmitters built in, however while I have tested both DVI ports to actually function (in windows that is) I cant recall I have ever tested them at the same time

 

[flyproductions]

thats pretty cool that you got one of those Asus Dual DVI cards! and a collection of ROM's along with the 6600 ROM's its really awesome to see someone still has a copy of all this, so much has been lost to time sadly!

I went to my older harddrives yesterday and came across a folder, which i think was "leaked" back in the days an has a whole lot of different 5200 ROMs in it. Even along with some advise on how to use them. And all claiming to support DVI. So, if it's ok today (to save them from beeing lost 😉 ) i could post them. Same goes for the ASUS Video Suite ROM (which is Arti's work).

a card much like it that I really want to see try and flashed is the Quadro FX 600 PCI its a Dual DVI PCI card, and like Apple FX 5200 Ultra it has dual external TMDS transmitters (the Asus card only has the 1 sadly)

Do you know, if one of them supports Dual Link? In this case it would be a very nice option! Think of a 30" powered by a PCI-card! 😎

indeed my FX 5200 Dual DVI card is one of those, the sort that have "64MB 128MB 256MB" with check boxes mines only a 64MB card

I think these cards are just of poor quality. Mine already had random black screens when it was nearly new. And i never got Dual DVI to work with it.

In a way it might, just as the 6800xt i have, some kind of "part recycling". These cards came long after the time of the 5200/6800. So maybe some company bought lots of chips which were still there but no one had any use for anymore. And than slapped them together for some cheapo cards.

Anyway, the 6800 makes a super nice card for the Sawtooth. But, as a 6800, not even having one Dual-Linl-DVI port is just a bit strange.

 

[LightBulbFun]

I went to my older harddrives yesterday and came across a folder, which i think was "leaked" back in the days an has a whole lot of different 5200 ROMs in it. Even along with some advise on how to use them. And all claiming to support DVI. So, if it's ok today (to save them from beeing lost 😉 ) i could post them. Same goes for the ASUS Video Suite ROM (which is Arti's work).

Do you know, if one of them supports Dual Link? In this case it would be a very nice option! Think of a 30" powered by a PCI-card! 😎

I think these cards are just of poor quality. Mine already had random black screens when it was nearly new. And i never got Dual DVI to work with it.

In a way it might, just as the 6800xt i have, some kind of "part recycling". These cards came long after the time of the 5200/6800. So maybe some company bought lots of chips which were still there but no one had any use for anymore. And than slapped them together for some cheapo cards.

Anyway, the 6800 makes a super nice card for the Sawtooth. But, as a 6800, not even having one Dual-Linl-DVI port is just a bit strange.

yeah I dont think it would be a problem to post them at this point! someone should probably add them along with your 6600 ROMs to the MacElite page so there all safe and in one place with all the rest of the ROMs (speaking of which your 6800 Non GT ROM link is bad there)

sadly the Quadro FX 600 does not do dual link DVI AFAIK, but a PCI to PCIe bridge and a G5 GeForce 6600 seems to do the trick!

I have been meaning to ask if an Old World ROM could be made for that card as that would get Dual link DVI on an OWR Mac but I still need to unearth my G3 beige and 9600 and test out the 6200 first! (then see if the PCI-PCIe bridge etc works)