That is a good deal at Macmall- $1794 for a 1.8 single and free Ram.. Now I really dont know if I should wait for the new duals- or jsut go with the single.
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PowerMac G5s - on or around Jan 20th?
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So is it TranceClubMusic or Hannibal Lecter?Originally posted by TranceClubMusic
That head was Yummy too!
As I've stated in many other threads, I am not in the mood to wait any longer for these powermacs. If they are not out by the 27th, I am afraid I'm going to make a dumb decision and buy a dual 1.8 in my sleep.
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
Yessssssssssssssssss - I bet you wont see anything on the 27th or in January PERIOD. I know it sucks - but it aint gonna happen.
256mb Video Card AGP VS PCI-X
Im confused.........Can someone please tell me the difference? Will the up and comming ATI & NVIDIA PCI-Express Video Cards perform better then AGP Video Cards?
Is it worth paying the extra $400 or just wait for the PCI-X Video Cards?
Im confused.........Can someone please tell me the difference? Will the up and comming ATI & NVIDIA PCI-Express Video Cards perform better then AGP Video Cards?
Is it worth paying the extra $400 or just wait for the PCI-X Video Cards?
Aw, poor you, forced to buy a DP 1.8 GHz G5. Man, that's going to be a real dog of a machine. And watch out - once the PM line gets speed bumps, your DP 1.8 will magically become slower and a piece of garbage.
PCI-X video cards? Hmm, news to me, but I haven't been keeping up on video card technologies as of late... I would love to hear more about them and when they're coming out, if they actually exist!
I know what you mean. What's weird is that several vendors, including Apple, had refurbished dual 2.0s for around $2400 earlier this month. (They're still listed at the Apple store but none are available). It sure looked like an update was due very soon. But it looks like we're waiting until March or so...
powermax.com has the 1.8 single for $1849, which includes free ram and a few other goodies. And... no taxes and no shipping charges.
I recently received a quote from them on a G4 and there was no tax and no shipping charges, so I ASSume it would apply for a G5.
Also, the ram upgrade included installation and testing and there is no extra charge for this, and no rebate to deal with.
Not sure, but this might be a better deal.
3rd monitor
I know the new machinces (w/adaptors) can handle two monitors, but if there are no PCI-X video cards how can you add three or 4 monitors?
I was planning on using my PCI radeon card....why...because I have one....
Assuming it fits and all...and assuming PCI-X is backwards compatible like USB2
Anyone know what you can use a PIC-X slot for?
I know the new machinces (w/adaptors) can handle two monitors, but if there are no PCI-X video cards how can you add three or 4 monitors?
I was planning on using my PCI radeon card....why...because I have one....
Assuming it fits and all...and assuming PCI-X is backwards compatible like USB2
Anyone know what you can use a PIC-X slot for?
Re: 3rd monitor
Im a tad bit confused on this issue as well.
Is the new and up comming "PCI-Express" Video Cards to replace the "AGP" Slots on Mother boards? Or is "PCI-X" from Apple another way of saying "PCI-Express"? Like Apple's FireWire to the IEEE Standard (One in the same).
Im a tad bit confused on this issue as well.
Is the new and up comming "PCI-Express" Video Cards to replace the "AGP" Slots on Mother boards? Or is "PCI-X" from Apple another way of saying "PCI-Express"? Like Apple's FireWire to the IEEE Standard (One in the same).
single 1.8 'bargains'
single 1.8 bargains mean nothing. it's discontinued goods, as has been pointed out. if you're willing to settle for 1 processor, consider this a nice gift from apple. if you followed the conference call, you'll see that the G5 speedbump which happened was unplanned, but that the 1.8 models were not selling at all well, for obvious reasons, and had to go. apple took much lower margins on the dual 1.8, but theirtheir stated goal is to move more PM G5's, even if the margins aren't as good as they'd like. Maybe it took awhile for Apple to get started on clearing out the single 1.8's, but today's bargain will not look so good once the next bump hits (soon please!). it's just silly to look at the 1.8 singles in relation to the rest of the line, because they're not part of the line anymore.
the fact they want to move quantities is good news for those of us who haven't bought yet, as it means they're going to keep tempting us with well-priced, well-spec'd machines in order to increase the units sold, even at the expense of margins shrinking, to a point.
meanwhile, my opinion is they've got to go all-dual soon, because otherwise the low end PM is going to look like a pile of puke next to the inevitable G5 iMacs and PB's.
single 1.8 bargains mean nothing. it's discontinued goods, as has been pointed out. if you're willing to settle for 1 processor, consider this a nice gift from apple. if you followed the conference call, you'll see that the G5 speedbump which happened was unplanned, but that the 1.8 models were not selling at all well, for obvious reasons, and had to go. apple took much lower margins on the dual 1.8, but theirtheir stated goal is to move more PM G5's, even if the margins aren't as good as they'd like. Maybe it took awhile for Apple to get started on clearing out the single 1.8's, but today's bargain will not look so good once the next bump hits (soon please!). it's just silly to look at the 1.8 singles in relation to the rest of the line, because they're not part of the line anymore.
the fact they want to move quantities is good news for those of us who haven't bought yet, as it means they're going to keep tempting us with well-priced, well-spec'd machines in order to increase the units sold, even at the expense of margins shrinking, to a point.
meanwhile, my opinion is they've got to go all-dual soon, because otherwise the low end PM is going to look like a pile of puke next to the inevitable G5 iMacs and PB's.
Re: single 1.8 'bargains'
All dual would be nice, but I don't think it's a necessity, as you imply. Although the G5 iMac and PB are inevitable, there would still be many distinguishing features in the lowest end PM to make it stand apart from the iMac, for instance. I'm assuming, the new low end will become a 2.0 GHz G5, or possibly a 2.2 GHz G5. I don't see the G5 iMac having anything more powerful than a 1.6 or 1.8. Now sure, processor-wise, this isn't much difference, but when it comes to things like PCI-X, FW800, huge harddrives, 1 GHz (or greater) FSB, possibly DDR II RAM, or who knows what else, I think there will be enough to set the PM apart from the iMac that goes beyond the simple proximity in processor speed, as they definitely would not need ot "max out" the G5 iMac to the level the PM is/will be at.
All dual would be nice, but I don't think it's a necessity, as you imply. Although the G5 iMac and PB are inevitable, there would still be many distinguishing features in the lowest end PM to make it stand apart from the iMac, for instance. I'm assuming, the new low end will become a 2.0 GHz G5, or possibly a 2.2 GHz G5. I don't see the G5 iMac having anything more powerful than a 1.6 or 1.8. Now sure, processor-wise, this isn't much difference, but when it comes to things like PCI-X, FW800, huge harddrives, 1 GHz (or greater) FSB, possibly DDR II RAM, or who knows what else, I think there will be enough to set the PM apart from the iMac that goes beyond the simple proximity in processor speed, as they definitely would not need ot "max out" the G5 iMac to the level the PM is/will be at.
Re: single 1.8 'bargains'
I began posting about the 1.8 being released in reponse to someone who argued that we won't see any G5 product line changes until March (8 weeks from now). I agrued that this seemed very unlikely, as Apple was was now sending price signals with the 1.8.
When you say " it's just silly to look at the 1.8 singles in relation to the rest of the line, because they're not part of the line anymore", the 1.6 IS IN FACT part of the current line, and the only computer I was addressing with this argument.
The key point is that Apple's "re-releasing" of the 1.8 at the price of $1799 effectively kills off sales of the 1.6. Everyone talks of discontinued models, but this is a little misleading - it's better to speak of the 1.8 as a discontinued CONFIGURATION. If you go to Apple's web site, you can order a 1.6 for $1799. Then under the BTO, upgrade the RAM to 512, and the HD to 160. The price on this BTO config is now $2049, although the 1.6 processor is still slower than the 1.8, but the config is now almost the same.
Also, under Apple's refurbished units, the 1.6 sells for $1399, while the 1.8 sells for $1699. Apple knows it's a better unit, with better specs than the 1.6. So when they chose to release it now (after sitting on the stock of 1.8's for 10 weeks and taking a hit of $200- 300 per unit), they did it for some informed, business strategy.
So yes, we agree. And my argument about the 1.8 is that it signals Apple will NOT keep the 1.6 in the lineup for another 2 months, as another poster was maintaining.
Thanks - I completely agree with your point that the ENTIRE single processor line will soon be obsolete.
I began posting about the 1.8 being released in reponse to someone who argued that we won't see any G5 product line changes until March (8 weeks from now). I agrued that this seemed very unlikely, as Apple was was now sending price signals with the 1.8.
When you say " it's just silly to look at the 1.8 singles in relation to the rest of the line, because they're not part of the line anymore", the 1.6 IS IN FACT part of the current line, and the only computer I was addressing with this argument.
The key point is that Apple's "re-releasing" of the 1.8 at the price of $1799 effectively kills off sales of the 1.6. Everyone talks of discontinued models, but this is a little misleading - it's better to speak of the 1.8 as a discontinued CONFIGURATION. If you go to Apple's web site, you can order a 1.6 for $1799. Then under the BTO, upgrade the RAM to 512, and the HD to 160. The price on this BTO config is now $2049, although the 1.6 processor is still slower than the 1.8, but the config is now almost the same.
Also, under Apple's refurbished units, the 1.6 sells for $1399, while the 1.8 sells for $1699. Apple knows it's a better unit, with better specs than the 1.6. So when they chose to release it now (after sitting on the stock of 1.8's for 10 weeks and taking a hit of $200- 300 per unit), they did it for some informed, business strategy.
So yes, we agree. And my argument about the 1.8 is that it signals Apple will NOT keep the 1.6 in the lineup for another 2 months, as another poster was maintaining.
> line changes until March (8 weeks from >now). I agrued that this seemed very
more like 5 weeks in my time zone
>unlikely, as Apple was was now sending >price signals with the 1.8.
This is what i disagree with. 3rd party resellers are getting that stock, i guess it's nice for them to be able to offer a better product for the same price as the 1.6. Other than on the refurb page (are these all truly refurbs or is this a back channel to offer some cheaper machines? The single 1.8 machines are not in the lineup of the Store. Apple's not very interested in reminding anyone of their existence, and I doubt you'll find them in Apple retail shops either.
>>current line, and the only computer I was >addressing with this argument.
i wasn't really addressing your post specifically, sorry.
>The key point is that Apple's "re-releasing" >of the 1.8 at the price of $1799
they're not re-releasing it, they're quietly unloading them through 3rd party channels.
>effectively kills off sales of the 1.6.
you're crediting ordinary consumers with being zealous apple-watchers and bargain hunters, but apple sells most of it's stuff to companies and individuals who march into the Store or Site and plunk down their cash. These folks don't know that MacConnection or whoever has a better machine for the same bucks.
>Everyone talks of discontinued models, >but this is a little misleading - it's better >to speak of the 1.8 as a discontinued >CONFIGURATION.
Apple does not sell brand-new 1.8 single processor machines, and hasn't for 8 weeks or whatever. You'll never see that model again as a new item on the Apple Store. That's close enough to being a discontinued model for me.
>Also, under Apple's refurbished units, the >1.6 sells for $1399, while the 1.8 sells for >$1699. Apple knows it's a better unit, with >better specs than the 1.6. So when they >chose to release it now (after sitting on >the stock of 1.8's for 10 weeks and taking >a hit of $200- 300 per unit), they did it for >some informed, business strategy.
yeah, like, "whoa, we better get this sh*t outta here before steve finds out!"
>So yes, we agree. And my argument about >the 1.8 is that it signals Apple will NOT >keep the 1.6 in the lineup for another 2 >months, as another poster was >maintaining
well, i agree that the lineup is on the verge of changing, but i think that the 1.8 sayonara party is just a painful but necessary action which wouldn't have gotten any less painful if left undone, and that the date doesn't have any great significance. Maybe they didn't want to piss off the people who paid $2500 for them by starting to blow them out for $1700 right away, who knows?
more like 5 weeks in my time zone
>unlikely, as Apple was was now sending >price signals with the 1.8.
This is what i disagree with. 3rd party resellers are getting that stock, i guess it's nice for them to be able to offer a better product for the same price as the 1.6. Other than on the refurb page (are these all truly refurbs or is this a back channel to offer some cheaper machines?
The single 1.8 machines are not in the lineup of the Store. Apple's not very interested in reminding anyone of their existence, and I doubt you'll find them in Apple retail shops either.>>current line, and the only computer I was >addressing with this argument.
i wasn't really addressing your post specifically, sorry.
>The key point is that Apple's "re-releasing" >of the 1.8 at the price of $1799
they're not re-releasing it, they're quietly unloading them through 3rd party channels.
>effectively kills off sales of the 1.6.
you're crediting ordinary consumers with being zealous apple-watchers and bargain hunters, but apple sells most of it's stuff to companies and individuals who march into the Store or Site and plunk down their cash. These folks don't know that MacConnection or whoever has a better machine for the same bucks.
>Everyone talks of discontinued models, >but this is a little misleading - it's better >to speak of the 1.8 as a discontinued >CONFIGURATION.
Apple does not sell brand-new 1.8 single processor machines, and hasn't for 8 weeks or whatever. You'll never see that model again as a new item on the Apple Store. That's close enough to being a discontinued model for me.
>Also, under Apple's refurbished units, the >1.6 sells for $1399, while the 1.8 sells for >$1699. Apple knows it's a better unit, with >better specs than the 1.6. So when they >chose to release it now (after sitting on >the stock of 1.8's for 10 weeks and taking >a hit of $200- 300 per unit), they did it for >some informed, business strategy.
yeah, like, "whoa, we better get this sh*t outta here before steve finds out!"
>So yes, we agree. And my argument about >the 1.8 is that it signals Apple will NOT >keep the 1.6 in the lineup for another 2 >months, as another poster was >maintaining
well, i agree that the lineup is on the verge of changing, but i think that the 1.8 sayonara party is just a painful but necessary action which wouldn't have gotten any less painful if left undone, and that the date doesn't have any great significance. Maybe they didn't want to piss off the people who paid $2500 for them by starting to blow them out for $1700 right away, who knows?
MacMall Quote "PowerMac G5 Up to $300 Price Drop"
I guess it seems like we're arguing a fine point, but the macmall website quote says it all.
http://www.macmall.com/
And don't forget that hundreds of thousands of mailers will go out to Mac owners with this same headline on it. So if anyone calls up a Machead friend and says "hey thinking about getting a new 1.6 for $1799", I can't see how dumping these 1.8's at these prices will help www.Apple.com sales of the 1.6's.
While I agree that Apple probably didn't know what to do with these machines, I think that your point about not wanting to piss off those who first bought them is correct.
And that's what makes me wonder about why Apple both priced these old stock 1.8's at $1799, as well as decided to release them now. If they sat on them for 10 weeks, why not wait another 6 weeks. (you have some inside knowledge???)
They definitely are a FAR better deal than the 1.6's so why not sell them for $1999 and pocket the extra $200 per box for the 1000(?) they're dumping? Unless those pricing the boxes know something...
Sure, many of these places like MacMall, etc., are for the price zealots, but these are still brand new units, not reconditoned ones.
Of course I'm probably wrong, but I still think that Apple, who has always used pricing of different models quite effectively, would not dump "superior" new units at prices equal to those for inferior products currently in their product line.
I guess it seems like we're arguing a fine point, but the macmall website quote says it all.
http://www.macmall.com/
And don't forget that hundreds of thousands of mailers will go out to Mac owners with this same headline on it. So if anyone calls up a Machead friend and says "hey thinking about getting a new 1.6 for $1799", I can't see how dumping these 1.8's at these prices will help www.Apple.com sales of the 1.6's.
While I agree that Apple probably didn't know what to do with these machines, I think that your point about not wanting to piss off those who first bought them is correct.
And that's what makes me wonder about why Apple both priced these old stock 1.8's at $1799, as well as decided to release them now. If they sat on them for 10 weeks, why not wait another 6 weeks. (you have some inside knowledge???)
They definitely are a FAR better deal than the 1.6's so why not sell them for $1999 and pocket the extra $200 per box for the 1000(?) they're dumping? Unless those pricing the boxes know something...
Sure, many of these places like MacMall, etc., are for the price zealots, but these are still brand new units, not reconditoned ones.
Of course I'm probably wrong, but I still think that Apple, who has always used pricing of different models quite effectively, would not dump "superior" new units at prices equal to those for inferior products currently in their product line.
Apple G5 1.8 Prices
Sorry I just had to put my 2 cents in -
Everyone seems to be acting like this low price for the SP 1.8 is some New Information. When Apple discontinued the SP 1.8 and replaced it with the DP 1.8 - Did ANY of you go to the Apple Store and ask for the price of a SP1.8????
Guess what? Its the same price yall are jumping up and down about as IF this is some profound announcement of up comming G5 Speed Bumps or a change in the PM G5 Product line - guess what? It means nothing - why? Cause it meant NOTHING when they discontinued the SP 1.8 - the very next day after the DP 1.8 was announed - EVEN THE APPLE RETAIL STORES BLEW THEM OUT THE DOOR - and yes, even before the Mac World Conference.
Now - as of today - you cant find any more SP1.8 @ the Apple Store and to get rid of this "DISCONTINUED PRODUCT" (how ever you want to word it - its still on its death bed) many 3rd Party Online retailers are following the foot steps of the Apple Store and like wise blowing out thier inventory OF A DISCONTINUED PRODUCT.
My point? Lower prices of the SP 1.8 (yes - I know it lower then the SP 1.6 ) has NOTHING to do with any upcomming new G5 ANYTHING.
As you can already see - all the "supposed" inside rumors have all fell apart........
First it was New G5 Speed Bumps @ Mac World - Nothing
then...........20th Anniversary Tuesday January 20th - Nothing
Now its "The Official Anniversary Date Saturday 23rd" - I will venture to say - Not gonna happen.
New updated Web Page around the 20th? Na........
So my opinion is - the lowering of the SP 1.8 had NOTHING to do with anything - other then getting rid of a product that DID NOT SELL - PERIOD!!
From my sources - Most people either bought a DP2.0 (best Seller) or went the cheapest route by buying the SP1.6
As of today the DP 2.0 is still the best seller in the G5.
The SP 1.8 - was terrible in sales - the DP 1.8 was created to hopefuly uptake potential customers of the SP1.6 to move up to a DP with out the expense of the DP2.0
Thats my opinion - and my last post regarding this situation - cause I dont want to get in trouble any more by the Moderators.
Sorry I just had to put my 2 cents in -
Everyone seems to be acting like this low price for the SP 1.8 is some New Information. When Apple discontinued the SP 1.8 and replaced it with the DP 1.8 - Did ANY of you go to the Apple Store and ask for the price of a SP1.8????
Guess what? Its the same price yall are jumping up and down about as IF this is some profound announcement of up comming G5 Speed Bumps or a change in the PM G5 Product line - guess what? It means nothing - why? Cause it meant NOTHING when they discontinued the SP 1.8 - the very next day after the DP 1.8 was announed - EVEN THE APPLE RETAIL STORES BLEW THEM OUT THE DOOR - and yes, even before the Mac World Conference.
Now - as of today - you cant find any more SP1.8 @ the Apple Store and to get rid of this "DISCONTINUED PRODUCT" (how ever you want to word it - its still on its death bed) many 3rd Party Online retailers are following the foot steps of the Apple Store and like wise blowing out thier inventory OF A DISCONTINUED PRODUCT.
My point? Lower prices of the SP 1.8 (yes - I know it lower then the SP 1.6
) has NOTHING to do with any upcomming new G5 ANYTHING.As you can already see - all the "supposed" inside rumors have all fell apart........
First it was New G5 Speed Bumps @ Mac World - Nothing
then...........20th Anniversary Tuesday January 20th - Nothing
Now its "The Official Anniversary Date Saturday 23rd" - I will venture to say - Not gonna happen.
New updated Web Page around the 20th? Na........
So my opinion is - the lowering of the SP 1.8 had NOTHING to do with anything - other then getting rid of a product that DID NOT SELL - PERIOD!!
From my sources - Most people either bought a DP2.0 (best Seller) or went the cheapest route by buying the SP1.6
As of today the DP 2.0 is still the best seller in the G5.
The SP 1.8 - was terrible in sales - the DP 1.8 was created to hopefuly uptake potential customers of the SP1.6 to move up to a DP with out the expense of the DP2.0
Thats my opinion - and my last post regarding this situation - cause I dont want to get in trouble any more by the Moderators.
Wookies on Endor?
While there is no sociological reason to sell the 1.6's for more than the 1.8's.... What we really need to know is What is a Wookie doing on Endor? It just doesn't make sense! There for you must aquit all those who are trying to make sense of it all and just wait and see.
(South Park reference - I'm not that insane)
My 2 cents is that they Mac Mall paid X dollars for the 1.6s in there wearhouses and Apple won't take them back. Thus to drop the price means a loss. I also suspect that the $250 rebate is not from mac mall directly but from Apple itself. While we see it as a bottom line price, Mac Mall proabbly has to apply for the rebate like any other consumer and it is Apple's way of moving inventory that 'technically' they discontinued.
Who knows and in the bigger game of life it is not worth debating.
As I said before I personally guarantee that in the future there will be faster Macs!
While there is no sociological reason to sell the 1.6's for more than the 1.8's.... What we really need to know is What is a Wookie doing on Endor? It just doesn't make sense! There for you must aquit all those who are trying to make sense of it all and just wait and see.
(South Park reference - I'm not that insane)
My 2 cents is that they Mac Mall paid X dollars for the 1.6s in there wearhouses and Apple won't take them back. Thus to drop the price means a loss. I also suspect that the $250 rebate is not from mac mall directly but from Apple itself. While we see it as a bottom line price, Mac Mall proabbly has to apply for the rebate like any other consumer and it is Apple's way of moving inventory that 'technically' they discontinued.
Who knows and in the bigger game of life it is not worth debating.
As I said before I personally guarantee that in the future there will be faster Macs!
Re: Apple G5 1.8 Prices
If this was the case, I stand corrected and acknowledge that my argument is not relevant. See, all you had to do was present facts to the contrary, and I'd cave in quick.
Re: Re: Apple G5 1.8 Prices
Still LOVE ya Man!
Originally posted by CalfCanuck
If this was the case, I stand corrected and acknowledge that my argument is not relevant. See, all you had to do was present facts to the contrary, and I'd cave in quick.
Still LOVE ya Man!
Die, Die SP G5's!
i think we're all united in hoping for the early demise of any G5 whose total CPU power comes in @ under 3.2 ghz, no?!
If anything from a dual 1.6 up becomes the bottom of the line, PM G5 will be Lord of all it surveys (and there will be room for lots of SP iMacs and PB's).
meanwhile, AI posted this on the 20th:
"Consecutive mumblings have hinted that January 24th, which marks the 20th anniversary of the Macintosh, could bear the results of multiple Apple hardware endeavors."
so maybe apple is sentimental enough to do it on a Saturday??
i think we're all united in hoping for the early demise of any G5 whose total CPU power comes in @ under 3.2 ghz, no?!
If anything from a dual 1.6 up becomes the bottom of the line, PM G5 will be Lord of all it surveys (and there will be room for lots of SP iMacs and PB's).
meanwhile, AI posted this on the 20th:
"Consecutive mumblings have hinted that January 24th, which marks the 20th anniversary of the Macintosh, could bear the results of multiple Apple hardware endeavors."
so maybe apple is sentimental enough to do it on a Saturday??
Dualies
Going just slightly off topic,
I had a discussion with a friend of mine the other day and we agreed that multiple processors are probably the future of computers.
Its getting harder and harder to make faster and smaller CPUs. Smaller and faster raises heat concerns. You need special (and usually new) manufacturing facilities that are extremely expensive to create and can only be used for a short time before new processes require a new facility.
At the same time you're moving away from a perfectly good processor in which you have millions of dollars invested.
Add the rise of distributed processing into the mix.
It seems to me that it would be much cheaper to build multi-CPU computers than to keep building faster and smaller chips. New motherboards would be significantly cheaper to create and could use existing CPUs. A little bit of software trickery to spread the load across several processors and boom, you can exponentially increase the speed of computers without serious startup costs.
That's just my two cents, does anyone else agree?
W
PS: So I guess Apple's dual PM line is just another example of how its ahead of the curve.
Going just slightly off topic,
I had a discussion with a friend of mine the other day and we agreed that multiple processors are probably the future of computers.
Its getting harder and harder to make faster and smaller CPUs. Smaller and faster raises heat concerns. You need special (and usually new) manufacturing facilities that are extremely expensive to create and can only be used for a short time before new processes require a new facility.
At the same time you're moving away from a perfectly good processor in which you have millions of dollars invested.
Add the rise of distributed processing into the mix.
It seems to me that it would be much cheaper to build multi-CPU computers than to keep building faster and smaller chips. New motherboards would be significantly cheaper to create and could use existing CPUs. A little bit of software trickery to spread the load across several processors and boom, you can exponentially increase the speed of computers without serious startup costs.
That's just my two cents, does anyone else agree?
W
PS: So I guess Apple's dual PM line is just another example of how its ahead of the curve.
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