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PowerMac RoadMap Past and Future

Too bad...

This is truly disappointing news, and unfortunately looks pretty authentic. I think it's one of those things that the reality is a lot more disappointing then the wild rumors. I was planning on a 1+ GHz iMac in January, and was hoping to jump from an AMD 1.2GHz PC then. I don't play too many games, and really wanted it for DV editing (just home movies) and coding. Now I'm debating if I should just bite the bullet, and buy a Pentium 4 3.0GHz w/ Hyper-Threading and a copy of MainConcept's EVE movie editor. (iMovie knock-off) Jeez, 2004?! Maybe Apple will announce some deep price cuts soon! (maybe)
 
Maybe they will go ahead and move the XServe to Power4 O🙂

And they should have dropped MOTO a long time ago. They have been screwing the pooch for quite some time, and it looks like the pooch is now dead and they're still at it.
 
Originally posted by wymer100
As far as not booting into OS9 come January, I think people are reading *way* too much into it. This move is simply a way of cutting costs and giving an extra push to developers to start developing for OSX. It's the same reason why MS doesn't support Win95. The fewer OS's people have to support, the more resources they to divert into other areas.
Click to expand...

It is evident by now that the disabling of OS9 booting *IS* a sales-tactical, rather than a development-strategic move to focus resources on OSX. In the foreseeable future, new Macs will still be able to boot up in OS9 from a CD (for purposes of being able to dig into, and correct, faults occurring in OSX' convoluted innards. There will therefore be almost the same number of programmers writing hardware drivers for future Macs as there is today.

However, the hastening of the release of i- and PowerBooks which we saw earlier this month, rather than January, shows that Apple has found it necessary to modify the plans for scrapping OS9 booting; it might indicate that Apple will leave some kind of door open for those groups that out of sheer necessity, rather than stubbornness, will be working in OS9 for some time to come: musicians, educators, small businesses with software developed especially for them...

Apple can ill afford to push through an exodus from OS9 at a time when the financial pressures make many non-fanatics look once again at a less expensive, apparently faster, PC if the situation arises where they have to pay for both new hardware AND new software anyway. They may desire to go for socalled "standards", in that case. Apple is a "good-weather" computer, best suitable for "climates" where the means are there for choosing the more inspiring, rather than the less expensive option. For that reason, Apple needs to enable hardware-upgrading WITHOUT a necessary software upgrade - at least until the times get better.

engpjp
 
Quicksilver G4 DP 1 GHz

When the Quicksilver was introduced in February of this year, I jumped at the opportunity and bought one. The prices were dropped, the features were upgraded, and the Mac had finally hit 2 GHz. I bit. I bet the farm that my $2700 purchase was going to last me for 2 years without being left in the dust. It was the sweet spot in the Pro line for the past year. I think I feel a lot better about my purchase with this news. Oh, and let's not forget: it's not ugly like the new enclosures. HOWEVER, I would love to see a demo of the 970, and be proven wrong. Really.

I will upgrade to a new machine in a while, but it won't be for at least another year-- I'd need dual 2 GHz 970's, FW 2, faster motherboard, hypertransport, DDR memory, and a Radeon 9700 Pro All In Wonder.
 
He didn't say any of those were definitively coming to the Mac - he said he would need those if he were to upgrade.
 
Re: speed isn't everything

Originally posted by jaredbbauer
...PC sales are down not because of bad processors but because of recession...
Click to expand...

Good point. If speed is so important, how come PCs aren't selling like hotcakes?
 
Marklar and Palladium

I think the strategy makes sense. I have a Thinkpad for work that has Windows XP and Linux on it. After work I've spent some time trying to get DVDs to play in Linux but with no luck. So I boot into Windows when I need to do that.

For my real work I use Linux (correction, I ssh into my TCPA Linux box now from an eMac with OS X, but I digress....).

Microsoft is already tightening the reigns on copy protection. Just the other day I had to restart my computer 2 times to get through "Unbreakable" because Windows Media player kept thinking there was a copy right problem or something...not sure why it would have a problem an hour into the film, but it's Windows. Anyway, Palladium will give Microsoft even more power over what you can and can't do with your computer.

With Marklar, just like I boot into Windows to have more media options, maybe people will boot into OS X on a PC to be able to do the things we are free to do today, but which Palladium will prevent. I know I'd rather use iTunes than Media Player even now.

One of the early posts mentioned that the government may make palladium required by law. Marklar may be a backup in case that happens. Palladium involves hardware changes. Intel is adding instructions to their chips that are necessary for Palladium to work, and there is also a smart card on the motherboard for storing secrets. Doesn't sound like it would be that hard to make a PPC chip and motherboard with the same hardware....but I have no idea how long even something as simple as that could take.

Anyone know what "Lagrande" is? Could the writer have meant "Longhorn" (next generation Windows OS), or is "Lagrande" another name for Palladium?
 
Stalling is never good but if any computer manufacturer can weather such a lull, it's Apple. They've done it before, with the G4 glitch a few years ago. I'm not sure how much of the pie pro desktops account for but it's probably not that huge, especially if they can keep the ipod, iBook, and TiBook sales going. And they'll probably be able to sell a bunch of the desktops with price cuts and non-CPU upgrades.

The biggest damage will be done in terms of perception. I'm sure the media will jump on it as being the final nail in the coffin. "Gasp, only a 50 mhz increase in six months. How will Apple survive???"
 
Re: Wonderful !

Originally posted by dekator
Certainly made my day. We all knew about the processor problem Apple is currently in! Come on! Still, the outlook is nice. The best thing is the news about the strategy regarding M$/Palladium. That's what I always pondered. The moment Redmond has taken away the last bit of computerational freedom, people will finally be ready for regime change! Yes.
Click to expand...
You have to understand, Palladium will almost certainly be tied to DRM -- no Palladium, no digital media. So cheer for Palladium at your peril -- it won't be good for Microsoft customers, it won't be good for Apple customers, and it won't be good for humans as a species. OTOH, it will be wonderful for Microsoft and the entertainment industry. Yes, it truly is "us against them."
 
Speed matter a lot in the pro market

For most users I would agree. It seams to me a lot of people do a lot of web related things that do not require all this horse power. I think a lot of this speed has to do more with the pro market then the consumer market however.

I have two Macs. One for business only, which runs OS 9 and Office 2001, which is my iBook 500 MHz G3. It runs perfectly, no reason to change it. I have had it over a year and plan to keep using it till I kill it.

I also have an 867 PowerMac G4 that runs Final Cut Pro, DVD Studio Pro, After Effects, Cleaner 6, Boris FX and Boris Graffiti as well as some other specialized filters. On this machine, speed is everything. Recently a benchmark was started between the dual 1.25 GHz PowerMac and the new Dell 3.06 GHz Pentium 4 running After Effects 5.5. The Dell was twice as fast as the Mac. This is a common issue with special pro applications. In Photoshop for example, only a certain few filters are much faster on the Mac and a good number of them are not. For rendering with After Effects, or LightWave and Maya, you really let the computer work for weeks at a time and twice the speed for about the same money really makes a difference. For guys like me, the application and my time are what I am concerned with more so then the general use of the OS, so I would buy the Dell to run After Effects and render 3D. I still would continue to use the Mac and Final Cut Pro to put these elements together because Final Cut Pro has a great work flow that saves me time.

I can tell you first hand, in the pro market, speed matters. In the pro market where we make our living on our craft, the application and speed are king. If you have a dedicated machine for After Effects for example and you basically only run After Effects for weeks at a time, you really do not care about anything other then After Effects and how long it takes to get the data back. Now I would prefer the Mac because of applications like Automatic Duck that feed sequences with meta data back and forth between After Effects and Final Cut Pro. For this to work, you really want the same platform and this plug-in saves a ton of time. You now have to face this issue of, do I do smaller work between After Effects quickly and easily, and do I go with raw power for longer renders and a PC that do not require Automatic Duck. This really clouds the issues in the pro market. We want everything and we are willing to pay for it. Apple will get our money, we just need the speed.
 
Re: Other hardware possibilities....

Originally posted by foniks2020
Let's see what is Apple still missing BESIDES faster processors? or put another way, what could Apple ADD to their current hardware offerings?

Faster Frontside Bus (The number one problem IMO)

Fully supported DDR RAM

Serial ATA -- (well to be fair PCs also don't really have this yet either)

More L2 and L3 cache (this is still one of the biggest speed boosters available)

Firewire 2

On board Bluetooth support

Faster hard drives, Superdrives (value adds)

What else?
Click to expand...

So Apple's making all there computers after this year boot only into OS X? Many people seem to not like this.

Apple may be trying to make the distinction between these new Macs as great as possible. Having Firewire 2, on-board bluetooth, USB 2, and faster hard drives (and interfaces), and son on... only on these OS X machines would make OS X seem all the more desirable.

The distinction would be like how you know a Mac is old and has outdated interfaces if it's beige....so it could be with machines that can boot OS 9.
 
Originally posted by dongmin
Stalling is never good but if any computer manufacturer can weather such a lull, it's Apple. They've done it before, with the G4 glitch a few years ago. I'm not sure how much of the pie pro desktops account for but it's probably not that huge, especially if they can keep the ipod, iBook, and TiBook sales going. And they'll probably be able to sell a bunch of the desktops with price cuts and non-CPU upgrades.

The biggest damage will be done in terms of perception. I'm sure the media will jump on it as being the final nail in the coffin. "Gasp, only a 50 mhz increase in six months. How will Apple survive???"
Click to expand...

The media won't have to play a role even though it will. The public isn't that stupid to be blind to Macs costing more than PC's and yet the PC will be even that much faster than Macs now come this spring and summer. Sure Apple can survive but at what cost? Most Mac people who keep up on this type of news and info tend to underestimate how much Dell is growing month by month. Once HP/Compaq get things a little more organized they too will be a greater force.

Frankly I think Apple is screwing up on the ipod. They should be signing up as many as possible to sell it yet it is really only in a slim number of stores. The market isn't the same as with Macs sitting in a PC environment trying to be sold. It's a hot item but much of it is from people seeing it rather than advertising or word of mouth. Get it out where people can see it. I'm merely touching on this fact that as well as it will sell, it needs more exposure to help Apple like it should and I haven't even mentioned that in it's current form and cost, the competition will have zeroed in on them by late spring with great success(hope for a nice rev at mwsf).

Basically Apple is going to need some new devices and products to help keep them going. If Apple stays "afloat", the Mac will stay afloat in some form. If the Mac stays "afloat", there is no guarantee that Apple can stay afloat. I'm hoping to see something new come early 2k3.
 
Re: well

Originally posted by fatalerror101
[BI was secretly hoping that perhaps Apple would suprise us or something....[/B]
Click to expand...
Ha! It's not longer a secret.
I was hoping for the same and will be disappointed if nothing comes out for the pro line. Not as concerned for the processor speed as I am for DDR implementation - faster bus, ATA 133, USB 2, Radeon 9700 Pro, etc.
 
On the Palladium subject you will often hear of people saying what they will do like switch to mac/linux or turn it off. Yes, you will be able to turn it off. The thing is that for any uses web related those not using it, will be out in the cold. This really isn't any big secret. The thing that people are not realizing is that MS can use this against Apple since they will likely want to tie this in to Office and their media player but Apple won't have any solution with the current strategy. Also let us not forget that Quicktime is struggling and this will likely shrink that market even more.

Palladium is a huge issue and the way to fight it isn't by technical means. People need to be talking to their reps in the government. This isn't a single company trying to ram this down everyone's throat but a consortium making it tougher to fight because there is no competition to utilize. AMD, Intel, and MS are involved in this so get with it people. And no, email or instant messaging is not the typical way to do this. 🙂
 
Re: Too bad...

Originally posted by 3-22
This is truly disappointing news, and unfortunately looks pretty authentic. I think it's one of those things that the reality is a lot more disappointing then the wild rumors. I was planning on a 1+ GHz iMac in January, and was hoping to jump from an AMD 1.2GHz PC then. I don't play too many games, and really wanted it for DV editing (just home movies) and coding. Now I'm debating if I should just bite the bullet, and buy a Pentium 4 3.0GHz w/ Hyper-Threading and a copy of MainConcept's EVE movie editor. (iMovie knock-off) Jeez, 2004?! Maybe Apple will announce some deep price cuts soon! (maybe)
Click to expand...

Yeah, you really should, go buy your D*amn PC and leave us alone. If you want a Mac you want it BECAUSE its a MAC, not based on speed alone, so if you are this obsorbed into the speed issue than a peecee is just what you need, let us know when you get your computer and the motherboard starts smoking. Enjoy
 
Power desktop for home use

Originally posted by jayscheuerle
Seriously folks, what tasks do you do that the current offerings are not up to snuff? Is this just about swordfights with your Wintel friends? At some point, more horsepower is just more horsepower. It won't make your driving experience any better. My Acura might hit 120mph, but that does me little good for the way I drive. In fact, for day to day trolling around the city (the driving equivalent of how most users use their computers), a 5 yr. old Saturn probably gets the job done just as well (but with less style, eh?)...

I'm still plugging away at home on a BEIGE G3!! For email and iTunes and some light design, it's still a great machine. I even do some Electric Image renderings on it from time to time. Any of the current machines, or those in the past year or two, would blow me away (especially if they killed the bevy of OSX speed lags).

King of the hill is a lonely place to be and you're always watching your back. On top of that, it's a short lived euphoria. Perhaps it's the frustration that the finest looking machines DESERVE to be powered by the fastest processors. Perhaps it's the frustration of not living up to potential. At this point, I could care less about processor speed as long as Apple continues to refine OSX itself and doesn't continue to paint themselves as Microsoft wanna be's with their poorly thought hostile marketing strategies.

- j
Click to expand...

I'm not a power user, but want these things.

I want to be able to shoot high quality home video of my brother's wedding (<2 MegaPixel camcorder, not available at the moment, but soon). I want to edit these large video clips (GBs in size), without seeing the rainbow CD icon in OSX.

I want to buy a 8 to 15 MegaPixel digital camera in the near future and take really high quality pics of places and people I love, and view hundreds of them seemlessly using iPhoto.

I want iPhoto to search in my very large photo library and pull out all pics of my grandparents and arrange them chronologically.

I want to launge IE faster than the current Pentium 4 PC. I don't want to see jumpin E icon in the Dock!

(Work) I want to be able to analyze large gel images seemlessly.

I want it to work with all versions of microsoft Word and other word processors seemlessly. I want it to handle complex word documents (fonts, pics and macros).

I want it to intelligently search for information and have it organize to educate me on subject matters I know little about. I guess this requires AI computing?

I want to run a dataset of SETI in minutes not hours!

I want it to manage my digital home (music, video, security, lighting, climate etc.) intelligently.

A powerful home computer, who needs it? Am I asking too much from Apple?😀
 
Rumor Vs. Fact

I dont know if I waited too long to have a good audience for this reply but:

Suprisingly, many of you have actually discussed this article at length, whereas an educated guess by somebody who knows how apple handles problems and products. Which most of you should by now. By watching what kind of rumors eventually present themselves as fact, and what never gets beond the rumorer's mouth. This article matches what I have been telling friends for a while, matching my own theories. Yet I dare not make rumors out of my own theories, like many people do to get some 1.34 seconds of fame.

The thing about the "g5" being dead is true, to jump over to another section of the article. Apple brands lines of their machines as G-x series. Not moto or ibm, these companies have kinda picked up on the term in ways, but that is not their official names. I believe that Apple, if the 970 shows it's might to us mac users, iit will most likely be called a g5, with a lesser chance of having a whole new naming scheme. ( Just a side note, what would people think of getting rid of the "PowerMac" naming thing? I am just curious as to see people's thoughts oon the subject)

Apple's roadmap is fuzzier now than it has been since Jobs took the helm. The major changes have been done, and there are more ideas on the horizon, but not a lot of new ideas. Lately apple has been focusing on taking speedbumps out of the user's experience with their own computers, and not really out of the machine. Apple's software today is now unmatched in the mac or pc industry. I have never found myself having so few problems with my computer. Any mac user has to absolutely say that there has never been such a good time to be a mac user, RIGHT? Just look at the Aqua Human Interface Guidelines on apple's site. Those are really the key thing that Apple has had going for them. It is really a list of things that we as mac users take for granted, that bug the living crap out of me that they dont have on windows.

As with marklar, only a few people know the answer to that, I would personally assume that it would only be a shift in processors, yet still a proprietary platform. There is no reason apple should support crappy noname motherboards and such. I feel as if it an escape pod from the ppc processor in the event of another fallout. Dont think you will ever install a supported version of os x on your current pc though.

2U Xserve, well price it the same apple and make it not so deep and it will sell.


My opinion of MacWorld SF: Speedbumped iMacs, more models with 17", price drop for the 15". Display line revamped (they have to get rid of the graphite apple on them, it just doesnt match! The HD has a chrome one) I don't see an iDevice debuting there. Don't ask why, I just don't. I would think the current ipods could be changed a bit, size wise, i think they are fine, but a color screen would be the way to go, seeing the price of small color lcd's drop drastically over the past 6-9 months. Why do you think they are all over cellphones now? Now wether color adds any functionality to it, is up to apple to decide. But support for aac audio is a pretty sure thing, apple passed their own announced deadline for that.

Dont take anything I say as fact. The names and faces have been changed to protect the innocent. This message will self destruct in 5. 4. 3. 2. 1...
 
Originally posted by Cappy

Basically Apple is going to need some new devices and products to help keep them going. If Apple stays "afloat", the Mac will stay afloat in some form. If the Mac stays "afloat", there is no guarantee that Apple can stay afloat. I'm hoping to see something new come early 2k3.
Click to expand...

Apple has $4 Billion in cash and is generally profitable. They are definitely going to stay afloat, no matter what happens with the G5 or the 970.

Basically, here's the way I see it: yes, pro users are going to get shafted for at least one more year as the PowerMac falls farther and farther behind the x86 in performance for the graphics workstation market.

On the other hand, the average consumer is caring less and less about performance. Here's an article from the Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A29501-2002Nov23.html

Basically says how PC users don't have to upgrade every 2 years anymore - the performance of old computers is just fine. It's diminishing marginal utility, folks - Economics 101. CPU makers have inundated the market with so much power that the average consumer just doesn't care anymore - they assume any CPU out there is more than up to the task for their own needs.

In this market, Apple can compete very well, because consumers will look at features and design more than CPU, and Apple's strength has always been product design (both hardware and software). Since people aren't upgrading because they think they "need" one to "keep up", they're either going to go either for computers with a gee-whiz factor (which the iMac, TiBook, and even the iBook and eMac have), or they may buy a Mac because now they have a Digital Camera, Digital Video Camera, large MP3 collection, etc., and the iApps will help them get more value and enjoyment from those devices.

Also as David Coursey pointed out in his column today:

http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/stories/story/0,10738,2898453,00.html

a lot of Mac users are "adders" rather than "switchers". And this is just fine. In an environment where not only does a household typically already own a PC, but Jack and Jane each have their own PC in their bedrooms or dorm rooms, then a new PC will fulfill a "want", not a "need". People will be snapping up iBooks, iMacs, TiBooks, etc. because they're cool and fun to use, not because they "need" one, the same way they might buy a new stereo or new TV. And they may still keep around their old PC (this is especially true of customers that already have a PC desktop and are buying iBooks and TiBooks).
 
Re: Re: speed isn't everything

Originally posted by cubist


Good point. If speed is so important, how come PCs aren't selling like hotcakes?
Click to expand...

But the sale of Macs are down *RELATIVE TO* PC sales in general. While it may be argued that the Mac slice of the total number of PCs in existence is only diminishing slowly, the latest SALES figures of Macs are beginning to dip very rapidly. Apple's strategy of downscaling to retain profitability, as already pointed out, is reaching a point where further downscaling might hit something more vital than the cashpile: market relevancy as a computer platform. My estimate is that that point is annual Apple unit sales of 2% of the total market.

engpjp
 
Re: Re: Re: speed isn't everything

Originally posted by engpjp


But the sale of Macs are down *RELATIVE TO* PC sales in general. While it may be argued that the Mac slice of the total number of PCs in existence is only diminishing slowly, the latest SALES figures of Macs are beginning to dip very rapidly. Apple's strategy of downscaling to retain profitability, as already pointed out, is reaching a point where further downscaling might hit something more vital than the cashpile: market relevancy as a computer platform. My estimate is that that point is annual Apple unit sales of 2% of the total market.

engpjp
Click to expand...

Well not really... Apple's marketshare increased in both the US and Europe earlier this year, so their sales figures are not dipping rapidly as expected! The Asia market has been a hard catch for both Apple and even Dell where Legend has a huge marketshare percentage in that region (namely China)! With Apple focusing efforts in Asia now should help their cause there... Dell won't have an easy of time since Linux is becoming more popular on the desktop these days in various parts of Asia (China, Korea and etc...)! It will be interesting how things will be a year from now?!
 
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