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I have both a Mac and Athlon

I have both a Dual G4 1 GHz PowerMac Quicksilver, customized to the gills in a dual monitor setup; and a handbuilt Athlon XP 2700 Computer running Windows XP. Yes, the Athlon is faster and cheaper in some ways. (I also have simultaneously running a Powerbook G3 2000, and a Powerbook G4 Titanium, and an HP Athlon-based PC).

I, however, prefer using the PowerMac over the PC.

Compared to Windows XP, Mac OS X is so much more elegant, useful, cleaner, extensible, intuitive, smarker and faster to use than Windows XP. I can accomplish more things simultaneously on the Mac than in Windows XP.

For example, Microsoft Explorer on OS X is SO much better than in Windows XP. When I go online, I open up 20 windows each to a website I am interested in. This allows me to be very efficient in reading online. Try this in Windows XP - its very clunky and inefficient when doing this. Windows XP is made for people who single-task, using one window at a time; compared to multi-tasking as on the Mac.

Upgrading the hardware on the PowerMac is much easier compared to upgrading the PC. I don't have to register with Microsoft when I want to do it either.

The PowerMac is useful for almost everything I use it for, including video work. I use the Athlon PC for mainly grunt work - such as digitizing audio, downloading software, scanning files; and for programs that don't have a Mac counterpart. But almost all the time I spend with the computer is on the PowerMac. With Audiocorder X on my Powerbook 2000, I don't even have to use the Athlon for digitizing audio.

For those that complain about speed: go ahead. Buy a PC. Enjoy it.

If you appreciate the Mac for what it is, if you truly understand what the Mac is about, what the ZEN of Mac is about, you will soon realize how clunky and underproductive the Windows XP PC is compared to the Mac, no matter how fast the PC may be. You will soon realize how much faster you can get things done on the Mac - you aren't fighting with your Mac as you do with the PC.

For those that complain about price: get over it. Get a better job.

The Mac has always been more expensive when compared to a PC. It is made for people who are brighter and wealthier on average than the average PC user. When using the analogy of automobiles, the Mac is a Lexus, the PC a Chevy. Most people can't buy the Lexus. Those that want to need to get a higher paying job.

It is unfortunate that Apple had to compete on price with low end models. That brought in cheapskate dregs who don't appreciate the elegance that the Mac offers, for whom Windows is just good enough, for whom the saying "The relentless pursuit of perfection" flows through one ear out the other.

I define the next generation computer, be it a Mac or a PC, as the model that is 4 times faster than the previous generation. I usually purchase new computers based on this because any smaller jump in speed is not perceptibly much faster. I don't get a high from smaller jumps. Since the 3 GHz Pentium 4 is NOT four times faster than my Athlon XP 2700, I'm not going to upgrade, similarly for the Mac 1.25 GHz Dual G4s. I am amused by PC sites who slobber over 20% gains in speed. That is such a small jump. Sure - if you have to do something data intensive repetitively such as in video production, you may gain time. But in day-to-day use with less data intensive work, such as word processing, games, database use, Photoshop work, music, this small gain is not that much. It certainly doesn't justify for most people having to purchase a whole new computer - or even motherboard - since you may have to purchase new memory or even a new graphics card.

I can wait for the PowerPC 970 PowerMacs, particularly if they are dual processor. At the 1.8 GHz anticipated top end, given a dual processor model will be about four times faster than my Dual 1 GHz G4, if not more given the huge jump in speed of the databus. I'll buy that when it comes out.
 
Re: Re: well

Originally posted by arn



Well, I can tell you now - just based on educated guessing... PowerMacs will NOT be updated at MWSF

arn
I'd bet you're wrong. I bet the PowerMacs will be updated as well as the laptops. Both had marginal upgrades in the past few months and I think we'll see some enhancements as well as possible new designs. The time has come. MYSF will be big.


Peter😀
 
Re: Re: Re: Upgradability

Originally posted by MacCoaster

And you have allllll those PCI slots to play around with in your Cube. 🙄

And what do I need PCI slots for?

I already have have 10/100 ethernet, Airport wireless networking, built in CDRW, USB for the slow stuff and Firewire for higher speed needs like external HDs, DV and pro audio hardware.

I also have a DP 1.25 ghz @ DP 1.33ghz if I needed PCI slots - which I don't.
 
Re: Re: Re: well

Originally posted by pgwalsh
I'd bet you're wrong. I bet the PowerMacs will be updated as well as the laptops. Both had marginal upgrades in the past few months and I think we'll see some enhancements as well as possible new designs. The time has come. MYSF will be big.


Peter😀
The last Power Mac upgrade was a major mobo change - it was not just a normal feature add and/or speed bump.

So expect speed bumps only until the next major mobo change - which should also be with the next processor family and the Hypertransport or RIO system bus.

Which should also be about the time Firewire 2 and USB 2.x show up.

If the next big change is within a year don't really expect much on the feature front either if it'll require a change in Key Largo or the UniNorth chips.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Upgradability

Originally posted by tobyglyn


And what do I need PCI slots for?

I already have have 10/100 ethernet, Airport wireless networking, built in CDRW, USB for the slow stuff and Firewire for higher speed needs like external HDs, DV and pro audio hardware.

I also have a DP 1.25 ghz @ DP 1.33ghz if I needed PCI slots - which I don't.
Power Mac is targeted to prosumers, which in turn have millions of PCI devices they need that aren't even considered "standard." I.E. high end audio mixing card,

Are you able to upgrade your Cube to gigabit ethernet? To 10 Gig E? Are you able to upgrade to Firewire 2 in your Cube.

That stuff prolongs the life of PCs. I'd never have gotten three and one half years out of my Pentium II 233 MHz if it weren't for that kind of upgradability power.

Hell, in Shuttle's "cube," you CAN.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Upgradability

Originally posted by MacCoaster

Power Mac is targeted to prosumers, which in turn have millions of PCI devices they need that aren't even considered "standard." I.E. high end audio mixing card,

Are you able to upgrade your Cube to gigabit ethernet? To 10 Gig E? Are you able to upgrade to Firewire 2 in your Cube.

That stuff prolongs the life of PCs. I'd never have gotten three and one half years out of my Pentium II 233 MHz if it weren't for that kind of upgradability power.

Hell, in Shuttle's "cube," you CAN.

I sell high end audio gear for a living and am happy with the choices the Digidesign 002, Metric Halo Mobile I/O and Mark of the Unicorn Firewire audio I/Os give me. The new MOTU is even 24/192khz (not that 192k makes much sense at present).

I don't need faster than 100 base ethernet and in fact I never use ethernet at all.

"10 gig ethernet" ? Most people haven't even caught up with 100 base let alone gigabit ethernet, sorry, I don't know "10 gig ethernet".

My Cube is already over 2 years old and I certainly expect to get well over another two years of useful and enjoyable life out of it.

It also looks gorgeous, takes up much less space and is way quieter than most PCs.
 
Re: PowerMac RoadMap Past and Future

Originally posted by Macrumors
Both the pro desktops and Xserve will not go much beyond 1.3 Ghz, though 1.5 Ghz may materialize should Motorola be able to come through, even though they might be a prototype version like the current 1.25Ghz version that is now shipping.

So we are supposed to believe that Apple is shipping a "prototype version" of the G4 for its flagship PowerMac? Why on earth would any company warranty a product based upon "prototype" technology?

[edit]And yes, I've seen the PDFs stating the top speed of the G4 as 1Ghz, but I firmly believe that they are outdated and not to be taken as a reflection of current technology.[/edit]
 
Unhappy? Buy A Wintel

Hi all,

I'm a Macuser since Lisa. Since Apple is not capable anymore to beat every other OS in most aspects I started using Wintel. Now there is an i-Book and a PC populating my desk. I'll volunteer if there would be a Switch add from Mac ot PC. Except that I would call it something like Bi-Switch (= using both).
Standing on both feet (PC and Mac) I do not fear any processor change concerning apple.

Cheers

Cipher 😀
 
hello,

just wanted to comment the osX on x86 rumors.
this would be bad news for apple hardware, and who would think apple with 50+ stores allready would do such thing?

i do not think apple will ever allow for those grey boxes to become mac's and their retail strategy backs this up 100%.

apple are ambitious, they really think they can have it all, soft&hard. and how big a share of the market do they really want(consumers) ?

as for the business market; hey, their on the right platform: unix
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Upgradability

Originally posted by tobyglyn


The new MOTU is even 24/192khz (not that 192k makes much sense at present).


Correction, that sample rate is only available via Audiowire (PCI card) at present.

The Firewire I/Os are limited to just 96k. My dog will be very unhappy.
 
x86 in a Mac

Apple should build in some Intel or AMD processors in their macs if Motorola, IBM (and... Apple) are not capable of producing a Intel competitive processor. Apple is in the hard and soft 😀 IT market and I hope they dont give the hard part away to some clone producers.

About unix

Next year (2003) macs wont be able to start up (boot) with os 9.x anymore. The reason for this is hardware related. Apple want to make OS X less hardware-platform (processor) dependent. It is not an unrealistic big step to compile OS X for Intel or AMD processors...

Apple needs to speed up its processors and Apple needs to offer OS X to other platforms in order to gain more market share. Apple offers already XServe. Soon there will be a XServe with more power (more processors, very fast SCSI, etc). Some rumors even say that there will be workstations (really powerful workstations) on the basis of XServe. That looks to me that Apple wants to change its course a bit.
What happens if Apple compiles its OS X for x86 platform? Suddendly there will be very cheap OS X macs on the market.

So?

Cheers Heikki
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: well

Originally posted by Sun Baked

The last Power Mac upgrade was a major mobo change - it was not just a normal feature add and/or speed bump.

So expect speed bumps only until the next major mobo change - which should also be with the next processor family and the Hypertransport or RIO system bus.

Which should also be about the time Firewire 2 and USB 2.x show up.

If the next big change is within a year don't really expect much on the feature front either if it'll require a change in Key Largo or the UniNorth chips.
I agree there was a major mobo change, but that was over from the xserve. In addition they don't have full implementation of DDR and they left out some other new technologies which you mentioned. I think we'll see some of this at MWSF.

They didn't need to make those changes if they planned on staying with the same old G4. Plus they didn't make a big deal introducing the latest PowerMac. Something new, something bigger, better, and more powerful is around the corner.

I'm willing to bet on it.
 
Re: I have both a Mac and Athlon

Originally posted by Marianco
Compared to Windows XP, Mac OS X is so much more elegant, useful, cleaner, extensible, intuitive, smarker and faster to use than Windows XP.

Smarker? I can't say I've ever heard Mac OS X described like that when compared to any version of Windows. 😉
 
cpu updates

I find it very amusing that interest in buying a new computer right now is at a 5 year low, mainly due to the fact that the computer of today is more than fast enough to do what most need. Mainly; email, internet, document creating/editing, and as a digital hub (iPod, dig camera, scanner etc).

'Power users' could use the bump in I/O bandwidth, faster CPU/memory etc. But at most that is for gamers. Hardcore servers are NOT Mac based at all.

This is why Apple sells the iPod, Dell the new pda's, Gateway the plasma screen tv's. That is where the money is.

Any version of the G4 or P4 is usually overkill. Memory and graphics chips make up for most of the 'lacking' hardware.

We are coming to a period in time where MHz and GHz will not be an effecttive tool for selling computers. Think about any of our favorite Sci-Fi series (tv or movie) for a minute. I don't remember any mention on Star Trek about the 'newest fastest' computer upgrade or whatnot.

The personal computer is just a tool. Eventually, that tool is going to become as focused as a hammer. No need for upgrades, no need to buy this years model. They will do what we ask, no more, no less.

I hope. Soon.
 
Some comments...

To the person, mentioning that the fact that users are not buying PCs in the number they used to because the CPUs are overpowered as being "Economics 101":

I never remember this being taught in my microeconomics course. Mostly I learned stuff like supply and demand, utility functions, marginal cost and the like. The actual concept you mention is a business one called the "Innovator's Dilemma" According to this argument, a company (we'll call them Intel), makes faster and faster processors at a cheaper and cheaper price because that is what their customers are "demanding." They continue to do this really well right until the time that a "disruptive technology" comes and wipes them out.

This argument has been used to explain the overturn in the hard drive market, the demolition of Sears by Walmart, the eating up of the mainframes by the minis, the minis by the workstations, the workstations by the pc desktop, and (to some extent we are now seeing) desktop by the laptop.

This argument was also used by a bunch of dotComs to get VC and public money--they all claimed to be disruptive technologies. Such fear also probably explains why Microsoft siphons revenue from Office and Windows to support such perrenial losers as PocketPC/Windows CE, XBox, their enterprise stuff (SQL server, Advanced/Site Server, etc.), internet initiatives (MSN, HotMail, Expedia, etc.), dotNET (Windows DNA or whatever you decide calling it this month), and now the Tablet PC (their belief in this last one as being so disruptive against laptops, that they've gone out and said they will be outselling them as soon as next year). You see a similar thing at Intel ("Only the paranoid survive.").

[OBSwitcherAdReference: Whoever said that Apple has more software products than Microsoft. What are you on? Benedryl?]

As for whether or not these concepts should be taught in "Economics 101", you are free to judge by reading the books with the titles mentioned above. My views on this are fairly obvious from my portrayal.

My datapoint: Like O'Reilly, I found that a macintosh (a powerbook) has replaced four computers: (Linux, Windows, and Mac desktops, and Mac notebook). It hasn't however replaced my servers.

To the argument that Macs are more/less upgradeable than PCs: I haven't found Macintoshes (since 1986) significantly upgradeable relative to PCs (since 1983). It's not the expandability... if anything, the apples are a slight bit more of a headache in that regard. However, macs seem to have a longer lifespan, either the hardware lasts longer or I found I can live with outdated software longer. All Macintoshs I've owned are used in some capacity by a friend or relative (the exceptions being one computer dropped accidentally by a family friend, and one having been stolen). All my PCs still in use are running Linux (even the ones given to friends I see gather dust 🙁 ).

OBTW, I happen to own a Shuttle XPC. They are anything but "cubes" and a far cry from "the cube"-- since one of the PCI slots is used by the USB 2.0 card that comes with it, and the other is used by a second ethernet card (it's a server, but if it were a LAN game system, we'd be using the model which would replace the PCI slot with AGP), it's anything but expandable. Its cabling system may be "smart" in the PC world, but it reminds me of taking apart a old PowerMac to install RAM. Oh yeah, I'm sure not having gigabit on the cube really made that owner feel bad: how many of us with 10/100/1000 Macs/PCs are too cheap to spend $600 on the switch (*me raises hand*)? And since the shuttle (and nearly every PC) has "only" integrated 10/100, I guess I need to be ripping out a PCI card for that. (Having spend some time bagging the Shuttle, I should stop a moment and say that these are excellent little machines... I'd recommend them highly to some people.)

Re: the outdated term "PowerMac", I believe Apple still uses the "Power" prefix to distinguish between their pro and consumer line which uses an "i" prefix and their server line which uses the "x" prefix. These things happen when you spend too much effort branding, and not just to Apple. Look at the "Pentium" and the "Athlon".

Re: Windows compatibility in Marklar. Actually that's not far-fetched and you wouldn't need Connectix. I think the "Yellow Box" incarnation of Rhapsody (pre Mac OS X) which ran on x86 had a Windows 95 compatibility layer. I'm not too sure why Windows compatibility is so important, but whatever floats the rumor mongers boat...

Re: Apple should drop Motorola. Umm, for whom? According to IBM, the PPC970 won't be available in quantity until Q3 2003, nobody is going to "downgrade" to an G3 because we've all been brainwashed by Apple marketting, and you can't pry Mac OS 9 from the cold dead fingers of most mac addicts, let alone get them to use MacOS x86. If you need more power now maybe you should network a bunch of Linux boxes... Pixar seems to have no compuctions about using a PC in this way.

Re: Who cares about the pro line anyway? I don't know about right now, but the pro line accounted for most of Apple's profits because the margins on the pro machines are much larger than those on the consumer machines. So, I'm going out on a limb here and say "Apple does even if you (and I) don't"

We talk about the price of a PC hardware, but forget two points:

When the iMac came out, analysts were talking about how the "sub $1000 PC" would be the next big thing. Now you we have a sub $1000 mac and we're talking about sub $500 PCs. The only thing that hasn't changed is how we're all saying how Apple needs to add this feature or charge less or face insert doom related to some marketshare argument here. Uh huh, and slavery would have ended without the American Civil War because the market price of slaves was getting too high. Methinks, some people were asleep during their "Economics 101" class.

The second point is, with the the price of the latter so low (and probably only going lower), then the natural consequences proposed in "The Mythical Man Month" rear their ugly head: the price (and quality) of associated software is now the determining factor in a computer purchase. Who cares if the price of the iBook is a thousand dollars when the price of Office (or whatever else I need in my "switch") is three times that total? Who cares about the latest benchmark on your Athlon/P4 when you waste four of your weekends getting it to "work" (whatever that means)?

Yep, it's never been a better time to be a Mac user. It's never been a better time to be a Windows or Linux user either.

-terry
 
It's obvious to all but the Mac rabid that Apple's woes are due to the fact that they have a ball and chain around both legs labelled "hardware".

Face it: Hardware is a commodity. Every company relying on its own line of computer hardware is getting wiped out of existence: SGI, SUN, Apple. (Hey - it's a DARWINian thing!)

Until they transition to being a software comapny, like their nemesis M$, they will never control more than a niche market, and will forever be on the verge of going under. M$ may make ghastly software, but they know better than to manufacture hardware!

It's an ego thing with Jobs. Grow up already, Steve! 😱

-- BYTEBuG
 
True... true...

We're all hoping the MWSF would bring us new powerful computers, but the chances are low. They' ll upgrade the iApps, they may upgrade the eMac (since it' s not moved since a big time now) and add the xServe structure on this one like in the last PowerMac G4, but I don't think it' ll be more to come...
But maybe so, Steve likes to hide infos.

Concerning the MacOS on the x86 platform, it' s now purely a dream... if they' ve stopped the clones from 'stealing' their sales, they won't permit the PC to do the same thing... And the hardware integration of the 'Trustworthy computing' is supervised by M$, they can just hardcode your PC to not boot something else than the palladium ****... and they surely want to.

Now concerning the lack of power of the Mac, yeah, it' s true, my old B&W G3 begins to be slow when launching the lastest apps like PhotoShop 7 and Macromedia MX things in the same time... but hey, it' s more than 3 years old.
 
Damn... why those **** ? Yeah, Palladium is **** and it' s difficult to speak about it without being rude!
 
Originally posted by BYTEBuG

Until they transition to being a software comapny, like their nemesis M$, they will never control more than a niche market, and will forever be on the verge of going under. M$ may make ghastly software, but they know better than to manufacture hardware!

People keep saying this... but it's obviously not as easy as it sounds...

IBM tried it (OS/2)... failed
BeOS tried it... failed
NeXTStep tried it... failed

So... did they just not try hard enough?

arn
 
M$ too smart to sell hardware, eh?

Originally posted by BYTEBuG

Until they transition to being a software comapny, like their nemesis M$, they will never control more than a niche market, and will forever be on the verge of going under. M$ may make ghastly software, but they know better than to manufacture hardware!
-- BYTEBuG

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't M$ going to be selling Tablet PCs? 😉
 
yep. they are.

Originally posted by bobindashadows


Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't M$ going to be selling Tablet PCs? 😉


Correction:

They make the software that goes on the tablet PCs, which are made by Compaq, Viewsonic, Acer, etc, etc......
 
Re: I have both a Mac and Athlon

Originally posted by Marianco

For those that complain about price: get over it. Get a better job.

The Mac has always been more expensive when compared to a PC. It is made for people who are brighter and wealthier on average than the average PC user.

Marianco, you make me sick. What about people who aren't as fortunate as you and have to do with a less paying job or, indeed, are students etc. ? Why is the Mac more expensive ? Does it offer that much more that really costs more money ? I don't mind paying slightly more for a Mac but the extra must still be reasonable. Prices in the US are still pretty much okay but look elsewhere.
Really, what ? You can't afford a meal, go get a better job! Disgusting indeed.

What I mean is, even if I had a far worse job (my job's primary objective is the pursuit of knowledge and insight rather than money. Not very bright, ey, marianco?) and would be making more money I still say prices are too high. I don't think Apple just wants to sell to the extra-wealthy who derive their only pleasure in their miserable lifes from bosting in forums but rather to the bright citizen howevermuch he/she earns. Yeah, I admit, I have to do bad(ly paid) jobs at the moment 'cause my studies don't allow for a full-time job and I have to pay for everything myself. How f****** stupid am I ? And even with the best job (for me) I can think of, I'll never earn that much money to say, hey, Macs are cheap.
 
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