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Originally posted by jettredmont
Where are you getting that? IBM's press release says (after you run the numbers) that the FSB is 800MHz, not 900MHz, and does not hint that the 2.5GHz part might have a faster FSB than the 1.8GHz part.

Okay, re-examined IBM's original documentation on the 970 and see that the bus is "up to 900MHz" with an effective rate of "up to 6.4GB/s" ... which means that it's running at 900MHz but pumping data through like a 100% efficient 800MHz bus.

However, the "always half the CPU core frequency" thing I can't find any mention of, anywhere. Can you point me to something from IBM that says the bus is 1/2 of the CPU frequency for future (ie, non-1.8GHz) speed bumps?
 
Originally posted by Inunyan
Very cool.

I would finally be able to put my goodol' DEC XP1000 to rest, and do serious number-crunching on my desktop OSX!

Wish they come up with cooler (underclocked?) version. I would put one in my Cube.

If they just come out with a quad 970 in a cube you can have a desktop fanless terra-computer.

Probably practical too with 1000 Ethernet, FW800 and Fiberchannel. Store the raid and memory array on the floor :)

Rocketman
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: When will this happen?

Originally posted by jettredmont
(Sorry if this is Intel-ish instead of Motorolla ... I wasn't on the "Mac scene" during Moto's 32-bit transition)

Really? I don't remember any studies saying that the 32-bit transition on Intel would take >7 years (from introduction of the 386 in ~1988, a 32-bit pure processor, to the introduction of Windows 95, the first 32-bit-ish OS from MS).

Yes, people will always underestimate the ability for us to use power, and hind sight will always show that such predictions were foolish. On the other hand, certainly by the time Windows 3.1 was out (1992) the computer industry as a whole had a very well-defined idea that 32 bit processing was necessary for many activities. Once Win 95 came out, yes, there were "experts" who claimed that 16-bit software was okay still, but the reality of mode-switching (the CPU had to switch between 32-bit and 16-bit code, which is reportedly not the case on the 970 between 64-bit and 32-bit code) meant that running 16-bit software on a 32-bit OS was overall a pretty bad idea.

Now, contrasting 32-bits to 64-bits: when Intel switched over to 32 bits on their processors it was because users were already bumping into the limitations of 16 bits (memory allocation and management had been kludged to be larger than 16 bit pointers allowed, but even those kludges' boundaries were being bumped into by the majority of developers). By and large, developers are happy with 32-bits today, except for a few areas of development (video processing and databases forefront amongst them). When MS switched over to 32-bits on their OS, many applications which required 32-bit calculations had already been written to thunk the processor into 32-bit mode while they were in control and thunk it back down to 16-bit mode when they surrendered CPU control, which was both incredibly bad for OS stability (often applications left the CPU in a bad state) and for multitasking (apps such as this tended to relinquish control sparingly to avoid the performance hit of thunking/dethunking the processor when no other app needed the timeslice). While there are certainly apps that make use of 64-bit ints today (although obviously not 64-bit memory addressing etc), 64-bit processing support amidst regular 32-bit code is quite well supported on most processors today (not efficient - operations take 5x as long as 32-bit int operations - but such operations can not leave the CPU in a bad state nor do they require expensive mode-switching which makes developers want to hoard the CPU for as long as possible while they have it).

The 128-bit discussion here is more ludicrous: 64-bit pointers can address more memory than has been produced in the entire history of the personal computer (16 billion billion bytes), and it will be a while before we have enough memory on our desktop to even take full advantage of 64-bit addressing; I can think of no applications today that use 128-bit integer calculations - though I am sure they exist, they certainly are nowhere near mainstream. Will 128 bits be needed eventually? Eventually. I just don't see it as being as quick as the 16->32 bit transition (~10 years) or even the 32->64 bit transition (~16 years). Integer/pointer bit width, once a bottleneck and constraining factor for the majority of computing applications, is no longer the bottleneck.

I agree, to think of 128bit today is ridiculous, but perhaps in 20-30 years who knows!!! My point is, however, that computer’s processing power advances so fast that memory limitation will soon be obvious in desktop computing!
 
Re: Blade prototypes at Cebit

Originally posted by mbos
There's a news article by Heise, Germany stating that prototypes of the new Blade servers will be shown at the Cebit conference (12.3.2003-19.3.2003).
Article

Correction: This is based on nearly the same IBM web page mentioned at the beginning of this thread. However, if one clicks the link "Photos" there (and agrees to the terms of use) one will find an image of the prototype to be shown at the bottom.
 
Re: Re: When will this happen?

Originally posted by usersince86
EXACTLY.

I've being using Macs since 1986, and we've always been behind in the MHz war.

You can't compare future, undelivered chips to ones that are currently on the market and say, "See, we're just as fast!"

We're not. Don't give me all the "MHz myth" stuff; you can spin it however you want, and even though the gap isn't as big as it looks, it's still a gap. Period.

You know what? There * is * a Mhz gap in favor of wintel. However there is an integration gap and a software simplicity gap and a hardware reliability gap in favor of Macs.

Why are so many PC's sold?

1. Vertical market applications that dedicate a PC as a tool to a particular task.

2. Inertia arising from IBM-PC being on the market and clones being available for several years before the mac was originally released at HIGH prices with limited target marketing. That wave is still breaking in favor of Wintel. Microsoft just caught the wave by out moving IBM! And suckering Apple into a licensing agreement. Microsoft is not stupid. Intel is riding the Microsoft wave!

3. Microsoft was legally declared an illegal monopoly.

4. There used to be a cool computer called Amiga that had a primary benefit of optimized and specialized co-processors. It actually rocked. Mac outclassed it, out marketed it, out developed it, but never got any faster hardware.

5. Apple is about to have hardware as fast or faster than anything when used with available OS, software and for practical applications.

6. Apple already has server farms, clusters, arrays, and is about to triple the throughput of ech of those, albiet at a price comparable to 2/3 the highest prices it has ever charged.

But wait! Only 2/3 the peak price for 3x the performance of the best systems on the planet? That is VALUE.

People buy VALUE.

Hmmm.

Rocketman
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: When will this happen?

Originally posted by PretendPCuser
what is the price difference between comparable 64-bit SPARC systems and 32-bit Xeon system? What about the processors themselves?

At http://www.specbench.org/cpu2000/results/ you'll see that on single CPU tasks (e.g. rendering) the P4 3.06 integer scores are about 1100 vs about 550 for a SPARC 1.05 GHz. Floating point is about 1100 to 700.

Price? An HPaq DL360/g3 1U system with dual 2.8GHz Xeon (P4) and 1GB lists for about $4400.

A SPARC 280R 4U dual 1.015GHz with 2GB is $18,000.

The Intel box is about twice the power in 1/4 the space for 1/4 the price....
 
Originally posted by Rocketman
Backward compatibility workstation? Yes:

OSX
OS9
YDLinux
Tenon Unix
PC emulation
Win 95
Win 98
Win 2k
Win ME
DOS
etc . . .

Forward computers will rock but will not run all legacy applications that real people use.

Real people really suck :)

Rocketman
Funny, I've been using Mac's since '85 and was never able to do any "real" work on them until OSX came along. Try doing Java/DB (Oracle, MySQL, Postgre)/JBoss/Tomcat work on a Mac running anything pre-OSX, can't be done.

And, as arn has pointed out, the 970 will be able to run all existing OSX applications without modification just fine.
 
Originally posted by drastik

Some of you out there have this wierd thing about being faster, bigger, better all the time. I don't know if you're 14 or you just have a complex, but please relax. If your mac does what you want and allows you to be more efficient, who cares how fast the clock is?

Exactly!!! In reality, who needs 2 GIGAHERTZ TO RUN A FRICKIN' WORD PROCESSOR!!! I have a Mac SE with ClarisWorks 3 which runs just fine. The machine starts up in under 30 seconds. Okay, the screen might need a magnifying screen a la the computers in the movie Brazil, but the computer can still do a great job as a word processing machine.

If the 970 does come to pass, and let's just imagine that the next batch of PowerMacs get bumped up to 2.0 GHz. Would Apple be willing to just jump a bunch of their machines up so drastically, or would they do this in incremental steps? But having a dual 2.5 GHz machine would be so sweet. The machine I would like would be fast enough that I could even run Virtual PC and any current PC game, and still have no lag. I don't know if the 1.4GHz machines would do that for me or not...perhaps I should keep waiting for a little while. It would be nice to have a computer which lasts at least 3 years without becoming totally out dated. Granted, I'm running OS 10.2 on a 350 MHz iMac, and it works okay, but I certainly wouldn't mind having a 800 MHz or 1 GHz iMac! But to make a fully screaming machine, it needs to be optimized in about every way possible. Quick bus speeds, lots of RAM, plenty of on-chip L2 or L3 cache, speedy hard drives...however, there are still certain areas which just can't be sped up and are still bottle necks, such as drives (floppy, CD, hard).

Does anyone know why the processors from Motorola and IBM have gotten so behind the Intel and AMD chips?

Okay, enough babbling for now.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: When will this happen?

Originally posted by AidenShaw
At http://www.specbench.org/cpu2000/results/ you'll see that on single CPU tasks (e.g. rendering) the P4 3.06 integer scores are about 1100 vs about 550 for a SPARC 1.05 GHz. Floating point is about 1100 to 700.

Price? An HPaq DL360/g3 1U system with dual 2.8GHz Xeon (P4) and 1GB lists for about $4400.

A SPARC 280R 4U dual 1.015GHz with 2GB is $18,000.

The Intel box is about twice the power in 1/4 the space for 1/4 the price....

Wow, this is just not correct. Sparc boxes do one thing, and they do it really, really well: scale. Intel boxes do not have the same throughput when they're used as UNIX servers for many, many users. Sparc boxes blow Intel boxes away in terms of stability and responsiveness under high load. Try and run an ISP on all Intel boxes, and you'll crumple under the load. There's a lot more to a server than the CPU that's in it. Please provide links for those servers, since I'm SURE you're not giving us the biggest price/performance ratio at all. SPARC machines have dropped pretty drastically in price lately, so I'll believe it when I read it.
 
Re: drastik

Originally posted by drastik
Sure, you can get a $600 PC, but it has SDRAM not DDr, no firewire, CD-ROM instead of superdrive, etc, etc. It could go to 10ghz, the $600 machine is still an email station for all the good it dos you for pro work. Not to mention the clunky applications that drag the processor speeds dawn anyway.

It seems I've joined this thread rather late, but I have to respond to the above crap.

What planet are you from?
I haven't seen a new PC motherboard that supports SDRAM in ages; they're all DDR or Rambus. The PC guys were using DDR more than two years before Apple did and their implementations actually send and receive data twice per clock cycle, something no currently shipping PowerPC can do.

For the price of a 1GHz PowerMac G4 tower ($1499) you could match the G4's specs, except for FireWire 800 which would be replaced by FireWire 400, USB 2.0 and 6 channel sound, and still have enough money left over for a 17" digital LCD display. Yes that includes Windows XP Professional, speakers, Microsoft optical mouse and USB keyboard.

To those who don't know or care about the advantages of OS X the PC looks like the real deal. To them Mac people like you and me are stupid because we seem to have paid more and gotten less. It's going to be tough to convince the PC majority that they're wrong.

As for Windows being clunky and slow, have you used 2000 or XP? Did you see how badly dual processor Macs fared in a recent video editing test against single processor AMD and Intel machines? Doesn't that count as "pro" work? Did you know that Steve Jobs' other company, Pixar, uses machines with Intel Xeon processors? Are animation studios not "pro"?

Yoda was wrong, the dark side is really easy to see if you open your eyes.
 
Originally posted by edenwaith
Does anyone know why the processors from Motorola and IBM have gotten so behind the Intel and AMD chips?

Easy. Back when Mr Gil Amelio was still in charge of Apple, and during the days of the Apple deathwatch, Mr. Gil Amelio was so inept that he did not do anything to assuage the fears of Motorola and IBM management that Apple will be around.

So, design momentum on the PowerPC was lost, and that lead to the IBM/Motorola split. No use having 2 chip vendors when your business is shrinking. Why chase good money after bad?

After the iMac success, Motorola/IBM were still skeptical, but they were more willing to listen to Apple's desire to get more resources for chip development. Plus, S. Jobs makes a pretty good sales pitch.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: When will this happen?

Originally posted by Masker
Wow, this is just not correct. Sparc boxes do one thing, and they do it really, really well: scale. Intel boxes do not have the same throughput when they're used as UNIX servers for many, many users. Sparc boxes blow Intel boxes away in terms of stability and responsiveness under high load. Try and run an ISP on all Intel boxes, and you'll crumple under the load. There's a lot more to a server than the CPU that's in it. Please provide links for those servers, since I'm SURE you're not giving us the biggest price/performance ratio at all. SPARC machines have dropped pretty drastically in price lately, so I'll believe it when I read it.

Sun boxes also do stability quite nicely. I have yet to hear of anyone else with hotswap processors. Basically though, SPARC is falling behind. The next battle is going to be POWER (and PowerPC) vs. IA-64 (Alpha would have been a competitor, but it got killed by HP).
 
Originally posted by edenwaith
Exactly!!!But having a dual 2.5 GHz machine would be so sweet. The machine I would like would be fast enough that I could even run Virtual PC and any current PC game, and still have no lag. I don't know if the 1.4GHz machines would do that for me or not...perhaps I should keep waiting for a little while.

I think the majority of problems with Virtual PC as per its slowness is due to the software. There is nothing special in it that can handle almost any type of 3D graphics. Until Connectix (now owned by Microsoft) implements a new way to emulate Windows based PCs, I am afraid that even a Dual 2.5 GHz PowerPC 970 won't make VPC seem fast enough to play games. :(

Just wanted to make sure nobody got their hopes up. I thought VPC going to fly on my new computer (Dual 1 GHz) but it doesn't. It probably won't on the Dual 2.5 Ghz PowerPC 970. Hopefully I?m wrong.

But hey-when Apple releases the new Powermacs, everyone will switch to Macs anyway, and there won't even be a need for a Windows emulator...right? :D

[end radical pipe dream]
 
Huh.

Me thinks Apple needs to come out with a GHz similar to whatever Intel's got when the 970 comes out. If not, it's still not going to look like Apple's doing well because the numbers to the average Joe still look relative between the two types of machines.

Hopefully, this number: 2.5GHz is real. Hopefully. But also hopefully, is that there is an even higher number to make Apple "move ahead" of Intel.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

:D
 
Re: Huh.

Originally posted by GeneR
Me thinks Apple needs to come out with a GHz similar to whatever Intel's got when the 970 comes out. If not, it's still not going to look like Apple's doing well because the numbers to the average Joe still look relative between the two types of machines.

Hopefully, this number: 2.5GHz is real. Hopefully. But also hopefully, is that there is an even higher number to make Apple "move ahead" of Intel.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

:D

i think that if the megahertz myth were demonstrably false on every count, that people would abandon it. if this thing really does outperform 4 GHz P4s, and with 900 MHz buses and true DDR, it's certainly poised to, Apple will make some true headway into the market.

as it is, the megahertz myth is both arguably true and arguably false, at a general level. apple has photoshop in its pocket, just barely. it needs to put a lot more there with it.
 
Originally posted by edenwaith


Does anyone know why the processors from Motorola and IBM have gotten so behind the Intel and AMD chips?

Okay, enough babbling for now.

Economics. Motorola's main processor market is the embedded market. It's not financially viable for them to develop a desktop processor to compete with the x86 world. IBM is in a slightly different situation. They developed the PPC970 to compete with Xeon servers. They're not going to sell any if they're inferior to the Intel offering. Therefore, it's in their best financial interest to make a product that meets or exceeds the competition on price and performance.
 
Re: Re: drastik

Originally posted by Bregalad
It seems I've joined this thread rather late, but I have to respond to the above crap.

What planet are you from?
I haven't seen a new PC motherboard that supports SDRAM in ages; they're all DDR or Rambus. The PC guys were using DDR more than two years before Apple did and their implementations actually send and receive data twice per clock cycle, something no currently shipping PowerPC can do.

For the price of a 1GHz PowerMac G4 tower ($1499) you could match the G4's specs, except for FireWire 800 which would be replaced by FireWire 400, USB 2.0 and 6 channel sound, and still have enough money left over for a 17" digital LCD display. Yes that includes Windows XP Professional, speakers, Microsoft optical mouse and USB keyboard.

To those who don't know or care about the advantages of OS X the PC looks like the real deal. To them Mac people like you and me are stupid because we seem to have paid more and gotten less. It's going to be tough to convince the PC majority that they're wrong.

As for Windows being clunky and slow, have you used 2000 or XP? Did you see how badly dual processor Macs fared in a recent video editing test against single processor AMD and Intel machines? Doesn't that count as "pro" work? Did you know that Steve Jobs' other company, Pixar, uses machines with Intel Xeon processors? Are animation studios not "pro"?

Yoda was wrong, the dark side is really easy to see if you open your eyes.

Of course animation studios are Pro, if you read all of my post I made a point about render farms.

The whole point of my post was that you don't need the speed for most common applications. Every tool has its uses, personally I use PCs and Macs.

BTW, I was talking about the bargi basement PCs, the $600 dollar style. People who buy these machines aren't dong pro work, hence my comments about the machines doing pro work.

Yes, I've used Xp and 2000, frequently. The installs take forever, files get shifted into random locations (this is important if you are typically filling drives and want to get rid of stuff), feels clunky and non-intuitive.

Read before you write. I will give you the memory thing, I just looked quickly at the Dell site and saw sdram, it really says DDR SDRAM, which I shold have noticed.;)

Don't be rude, calling posts crap is just ignorant.
 
Originally posted by hacurio1
I thought the 970 had bi-directional buses
IIRC, the 970 has 4 of these busses, allowing glueless SMP capability up to 16 processors. However, this may have changed since last year, if 16-processor 970 based systems are not going to happen, or maybe IBM will make two variants of the 970, one for single or dual processor machines, and one for 4, 8 or 16 processor machines.

The bus is most likely similar in nature to AMD's HyperTransport - a very fast DDR bus, uni-directional (i.e., the bus is split into a part away from, and a part into the processor).

The latest data says 6.4GB/s for the bus data transfer. That will be 16-bits in each direction at 800MHz DDR (1.6 Giga transfers per second). I expect that the bus speed is decoupled from the core speed now. It is possible that it runs at 900MHz DDR like the original announcement said.
 
Re: When will this happen?

Originally posted by jettredmont
The 128-bit discussion here is more ludicrous: 64-bit pointers can address more memory than has been produced in the entire history of the personal computer (16 billion billion bytes), and it will be a while before we have enough memory on our desktop to even take full advantage of 64-bit addressing; I can think of no applications today that use 128-bit integer calculations - though I am sure they exist, they certainly are nowhere near mainstream. Will 128 bits be needed eventually? Eventually. I just don't see it as being as quick as the 16->32 bit transition (~10 years) or even the 32->64 bit transition (~16 years). Integer/pointer bit width, once a bottleneck and constraining factor for the majority of computing applications, is no longer the bottleneck.

The one place where 128-bit processing would really be helpful is in network appliances that support IPv6. That way you could deal with IP addresses in one large gulp instead of having to break it down into smaller pieces. I am not sure if this will be important enough to justify a general purpose 128-bit CPU or if it will be cheaper to just add a specialized network processor.
 
Re: Re: Re: drastik

Originally posted by drastik

The whole point of my post was that you don't need the speed for most common applications. Every tool has its uses, personally I use PCs and Macs.

Of course, and its a good, sane point you make. At some point, though, the speed of a machine becomes too slow to support a future operating system or future word processors or future spreadsheets or browsers, etc. Makes me think of when MS Word came on a few diskettes... anyway. There were all sorts of folks who did not NEED a Mac IIfx or a Quadra, or a PII 233, but those machines did make the software of the day work a little faster, were able to deal with more programs at once, and kept up for just a little longer.

I think when some folks want speed today for everyday software, they not only want the scroll bars to move quickly, for explorer to not crawl along, etc., but they want it to be a functional investment for just that much longer.

As new hardware comes out, people seem to write to it. Thus a word processing program that now takes up 40 megs of hd space. It seems wanting to buy speed for everyday computing is, at least in part, a desire to have a machine that can handle what is expected of a lower level machine of a year from now.
 
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