PowerPC 975 or Not?

[Rocketman]

Over the past few months, various whispers have repeated rumors of a PowerPC 975 processor which is meant to be a successor to the PowerPC 970 (G5).

Unfortunately, these rumors have come from consistently unreliable sources. As a result, the existence of a "PowerPC 975" remains in question.

Due to the nature of rumors, the information has also been repeated on numerous websites and message boards.

At this time, however, there appears to be no reliable information that the PowerPC 975 is an actual planned product. Instead, it should be regarded as a possible invention of the rumor world until further confirmation is provided.

This is why this is my primary rumor site. You look at other rumor sites, judge their accuracy, cite all claims and then analyse the veracity of the claims and try to sift repeat info from original content. That is valuable. Thank you.

If Apple will just ADMIT that the G5 Rev B will be released in June and it will not be upgraded for a full year, they would sell more units throughout the year because nobody would have incentive to wait (at various times) till June 05 rolls around.

IBM gives roadmaps and release pre-announcements. Purchase planning.

Rocketman

 

[reaper]

Like it or not, this is Apple's way of doing business. They keep people in ignorance until they release a new product or else no-one would buy the old product. If Apple has lots of 2GHz models to sell, they would rather unsuspecting individuals paid full price for these models a few weeks before new 3GHz models come out at a lower price. No-one would buy if they knew for certain something better was around the corner. That's why sites like MacRumors exist - to give us some guidance on our purchasing decisions in addition to a discussion forum for Apple in general.

I agree that this is definitely Apple's current MO, but I don't think that it's the best way to gain consumer confidence, or for that matter, consistent with other manufacturers.

Apple has to be so secretive because they hardly ever lower the prices of their products before new models come out, which is in direct contrast to almost every other electronics and computer manufacturer today. This creates fear in the minds of consumers because they don't know what's going on and cannot make an informed decision, which, in turn, discourages purchasing until more information is disseminated.

If Apple lowered the prices as their products aged they would have no problem letting consumers know about upcoming releases and having the consumer decide whether it was in their best interest to purchase now (at a reduced price) or wait for the latest, greatest to come out. I think they would actually sell more this way since there wouldn't be the inherent fear in purchasing that currently exists.

Just my .02

- reaper

 

[PPC970FX]

Hm

If Stev don`t have a 3Ghz Powermac, will he use PR Mhz, like AMD is?

But, it is a disaster in PR for apple if Steves goes out and say: Obs, was just kiding with you, and gives out a 2,6Ghz G5.

One thing that can save his rep. is a dualcore, CPU.

 

[wrldwzrd89]

but do keep in mind that MacRumors probably wouldn't exist without Apple's secrecy, and you couldn't have posted (or, for that matter, I couldn't have posted this either).





I think that was the point he was making.

PRØBE, I found your post quite funny! (By the way, you're right about my main point.)

 

[johnnyjibbs]

I agree that this is definitely Apple's current MO, but I don't think that it's the best way to gain consumer confidence, or for that matter, consistent with other manufacturers.

Apple has to be so secretive because they hardly ever lower the prices of their products before new models come out, which is in direct contrast to almost every other electronics and computer manufacturer today. This creates fear in the minds of consumers because they don't know what's going on and cannot make an informed decision, which, in turn, discourages purchasing until more information is disseminated.

If Apple lowered the prices as their products aged they would have no problem letting consumers know about upcoming releases and having the consumer decide whether it was in their best interest to purchase now (at a reduced price) or wait for the latest, greatest to come out. I think they would actually sell more this way since there wouldn't be the inherent fear in purchasing that currently exists.

This is a good idea, although they would then have to increase the prices at each update. However, it would give people incentive to go out and get something if they thought the price was right. Apple does occasionally lower the price on models, e.g. the 12" PB started out here in Jan 2003 at £1399 and then got reduced to £1299 in June. The rev B then came out at the same price (£1299) in September and now the rev C has been accompanied by a price drop to £1149.

2 weeks before the update to PBs, you could have got the rev B 12" 1GHz PB for the same price I payed in September. Then, when they updated, you got not only a faster machine, but a price drop as well.

The problem is, Apple tends to update all in one go, rather than gradual improvements. So currently we have a very out-of-date 1GHz 15" iMac for £999 when you can get a 1.25GHz eMac for £549 - they could have just stuck a 1.25GHz processor in there but instead they're holding out until I expect a G5 will be unleashed at WWDC.

As far as PowerMacs go, I believe they will be 3GHz, whatever chip IBM can produce. They have to be, or Steve's reputation is on the line.

 

[reaper]

This is a good idea, although they would then have to increase the prices at each update. However, it would give people incentive to go out and get something if they thought the price was right. Apple does occasionally lower the price on models, e.g. the 12" PB started out here in Jan 2003 at £1399 and then got reduced to £1299 in June. The rev B then came out at the same price (£1299) in September and now the rev C has been accompanied by a price drop to £1149.

2 weeks before the update to PBs, you could have got the rev B 12" 1GHz PB for the same price I payed in September. Then, when they updated, you got not only a faster machine, but a price drop as well.

The problem is, Apple tends to update all in one go, rather than gradual improvements. So currently we have a very out-of-date 1GHz 15" iMac for £999 when you can get a 1.25GHz eMac for £549 - they could have just stuck a 1.25GHz processor in there but instead they're holding out until I expect a G5 will be unleashed at WWDC.

As far as PowerMacs go, I believe they will be 3GHz, whatever chip IBM can produce. They have to be, or Steve's reputation is on the line.

You're right about the price drops with the new models, I just wish they would lower prices as the models aged, and before the other models were released, so there would be some incentive to buying a 9 month old computer *before* the new models come out.

Also, I don't think Steve will let us down, even if he has to announce at WWDC and not ship until later in the summer or early fall. Oh yeah, and I do think that the 975 exists, even if only in chinese!

- reaper

 

[SiliconAddict]

So much for reclaiming world's fastest personal computer.

Who knows maybe Jobs will put off something big at WWDC but I'm starting to doubt it.

 

[pjkelnhofer]

Has anyone managed to track down from where the original 975 came? We have been talking about it so long, it is easy to forget that it may not exist.

What ever happened to the 750VX?

 

[agreenster]

I'm not very confident that the PowerPC 970 or its FX revision are capable of reaching 3 GHz - I would NOT be surprised if a 970-based product debuts at less that 3 GHz. However, if the debut is of a PowerPC 975-based product, I'd EXPECT a 3 GHz model to be available.

I always find these kind of statements hilarious. How in the world do you know anything about these chips? Do you work for IBM? Is it just a hunch? WHY cant the 970 reach 3ghz?

And the other thing is, you're talking as if the 975 is the only chip capable of reaching 3 ghz, yet the rest of this thread is debating if the 975 even EXISTS as a product!

 

[Frobozz]

Official IBM Mention

if anyone has/digs up any official IBM docuemntation that the 975 exists... let me know.

This thing keeps getting mentioned as if it's fact. I think it may just be entirely made up.

arn

Ask, and ye shall receive.

http://www-901.ibm.com/servers/eserver/pseries/tw/specialreport_1.html

I have no idea what the page says, since it's in Thai, but this is the official Taiwan IBM web site and it specifically mentions the PowerPC 975 (in English since it's a trademark) in the same paragraph as the POWER5. I guess we can take that as proof it exists, assuming the translation is not along the lines of "what they don't know is that there is no 975 (snickers)."

 

[DavidCar]

Anyone speak Chinese?

I think the Chinese IBM site is confirmation that the 975 exists, but if we could get a better translation it should be easier to see the implications of exactly what is being discussed.

Wouldn't the mention of the 975 number also be an indirect confirmation of any other details in the original rumor that changed the speculation from 980 to 975?

 

[AidenShaw]

I don't think that the Taiwanese speak Thai

I have no idea what the page says, since it's in Thai, but this is the official Taiwan IBM web site

Also, IMHO, a single obscure reference is more likely to be a typo or an error in translation than proof of the existence of a product.

IBM talked about the POWER4, the POWER5, and the PPC970 for months or years before they actually shipped.

Are we to believe that large numbers of a "975" exist and it has not been announced? That would be a big about-face for IBM....

("large numbers" is relative - for Apple to announce a shipping 975 product at WWDC, they'd have hundreds of prototype and pre-production units currently undergoing testing. Even if the ship date would be in the fall, fair numbers of prototypes would have to be running now to give the LGJ the confidence to announce.)

 

[jakemikey]

IBM is secretive?

I already mentioned this on the "WWDC specs" thread, but I don't think IBM could be considered even remotely as secretive as Apple. They officially announced the 970 a full year before it shipped in volume as the G5. So far nothing on the "975".

But that's really beside the point. There seems to be (at least on the WWDC specs thread) a general prejudice against the 970 and its performance. It's referred to often as a "holdover" product which offers lackluster performance, and is there only as a spacefiller. I have to wonder how many of these people use a G5 on a regular basis. Performance, even on a stock G5, is anything but lackluster.

Other people say that if Apple releases anything but a 975 (a product which, even if mentioned once on an Asian IBM server, has had NO SPECS released, leaked, or otherwise made known by a reliable source), it will spell their doom. Come on people! Not one of us would really be able to tell the difference in daily routines between a 3GHz "975" and a 3 GHz 970FX. As to whether the FX could make it to 3 GHz, maybe not, but keep in mind that the original 970 was said to reach 1.4 or something before it showed up at 2 GHz in the G5. Right now on IBM's website, the 970FX says 2 GHz +.

I highly doubt that if IBM had a chip (in high volume) as impressive as the 975 is made out to be, that they'd keep it so tightly locked down, just on Apple's account.

 

[Skiniftz]

I completely agree, there will, in all likelyhood, be a successor to the 970(fx), which will most likely be based on the Power5. The only question is whether it will come out this year or next year.

Well IBM have working Power5 chips right now and are citing 4 times performance increases over Power4 servers.

Everything I find on IBM's site states that Power5 is due for delivery mid 2004. This would I believe make it highly probable that this chip is the 3hz G5 Jobs was referencing.

Another interesting quote:

The POWER5 will be in new servers code-named "Squadron," and also in the ASCI Purple supercomputer -- which will boast more than 12,000 POWER5 processors in 197 refrigerator-sized nodes that will cover an area equivalent to the size of two basketball courts -- several orders of magnitude larger than the ENIAC, whose size is the butt of many nerdish jokes. ASCI Purple is expected to be delivered to Lawrence Livermore in the second half of 2004. Servers based on the POWER5 have been up and running at IBM's Poughkeepsie Labs since June 2003.

So in other words, 12000 Power5 CPU's should be almost ready if they are not already as they are due to be delivered soon.

Hmmm.. G5's being delayed due to the first large orders going into a supercomputer?

Where have I heard that one before...?

 

[iLilana]

steve won't change

apple and steve won't change the way they release product. They know we love the suspence and they are profitable.

 

[Veldek]

Well IBM have working Power5 chips right now and are citing 4 times performance increases over Power4 servers.

Everything I find on IBM's site states that Power5 is due for delivery mid 2004. This would I believe make it highly probable that this chip is the 3hz G5 Jobs was referencing.

Not at all, the current Power Macs don’t use the Power4 neither. They use the 970 which is a derivative of the Power4. So we won’t see the Power5 in one but just a derivative.

 

[pjkelnhofer]

Ask, and ye shall receive.

http://www-901.ibm.com/servers/eserver/pseries/tw/specialreport_1.html

I have no idea what the page says, since it's in Thai, but this is the official Taiwan IBM web site and it specifically mentions the PowerPC 975 (in English since it's a trademark) in the same paragraph as the POWER5. I guess we can take that as proof it exists, assuming the translation is not along the lines of "what they don't know is that there is no 975 (snickers)."

Here is the babelfish translation of the portion that mentions the 975:

□IBM indicated that, Power5 □□□is situated between 1.6GHz to 2GHz, next year □will promote 90nm □regulation according to the Power4+ pattern Power5+, □□□might arrive □3GHz. IBM □estimates 1.6GHz Power5 to be allowed □to become 1.3GHz Power4 □time of potency. Moreover, IBM □□□constructs larger-scale many □principles by the Power5 □base is □, PowerPC 975 also □directly continues to use the Power5 core. □, with □at the beginning of the Power4 strategy is not opposite, a Power5 □beginning □by □the low □server □host, only then gradually will extend in the future to the high □server. □behind represents strategy □booklet, worth noting.

I am not a linguist, but I believe Taiwanese is slightly different from Chinese. Since Babelfish this is the Chinese to English translation, I assume that
caused the missing words.

Now, you may all interpret this as you wish.

 

[stingerman]

I know Thai, and the site says that "many Apple rumor sites anticipate a Power5 derivative being called the 975. We here in IBM Thailand are still hoping to get a 970."

 

[nsb3000]

if anyone has/digs up any official IBM docuemntation that the 975 exists... let me know.

This thing keeps getting mentioned as if it's fact. I think it may just be entirely made up.

arn

This is kind of a non-rumor than...? Kind of interesting for a rumor site!

 

[DavidCar]

Yesterday's 975 Thread?

What happened to yesterday's Page 2 thread on the 975?

 

[NAG]

Not at all, the current Power Macs don’t use the Power4 neither. They use the 970 which is a derivative of the Power4. So we won’t see the Power5 in one but just a derivative.

Indeed. And believe me, you wouldn't need (or want) a Power4 or 5 in your tower.

 

[Frobozz]

POWER5

Everything I find on IBM's site states that Power5 is due for delivery mid 2004. This would I believe make it highly probable that this chip is the 3hz G5 Jobs was referencing.

To be specific, POWER5 based IBM Servers will be released in 2 weeks on June 11th. They were officially announced on May 3rd.

http://www.ibm.com/investor/press/may-2004/03-05-04-1.phtml

 

[nsb3000]

i really do think that whatever the update is going to be, that we wont me disappointed. I mean, if they do have a dual layer DVD burner... that would be sooo kick ass. Maybe, this whole time the waiting is on Nvidia/ATI to ship their new graphics cards. Who knows... But we will find out in about a month...

Less than a month, if they come at the WWDC.

 

[ffakr]

I'm not very confident that the PowerPC 970 or its FX revision are capable of reaching 3 GHz - I would NOT be surprised if a 970-based product debuts at less that 3 GHz. However, if the debut is of a PowerPC 975-based product, I'd EXPECT a 3 GHz model to be available.

Remember that a PPC 970 has a pipe almost as long as a P4, yet it has never surpassed its introduction speed of 2GHz. There should be head room in the original 970 for a speed bump and, if the .09micron process actually runs the way it should, there should be a lot more head room for frequency increases.
3.0 may be unlikely as an attainable speed while they are just getting the process working properly, but I don't see any reason why a 970fx doesn't have the potential to hit 3GHz or at least come very close during that chip/process lifetime. Remember, P4s span almost 1 GHz from high to low on the .13 micron process, and the northwoods are currently available at 3.4 GHz.

 

[matthew24]

Apple knows that their custumors expect something at WWDC, if they have a serious delay ( >6 months ) they should make an anouncement now. Until now they haven't, this probably means there will be upgrades at WWDC. But 3GHz remains to be seen.