PowerPC G5 - very bad during browser usage

[Dronecatcher]

When a person take the time to register on the ppc forum, an enthusiast driven, dare I say retro computing forum, to ask a question, you render them and all the members a disservice telling us to go buy a newer computer.

I feel it would only be anywhere relevant if the person was asking something impossible of their computer - getting a G5 to play Youtube is one of the easier things a PPC can do.
Pity the OP hasn't returned to tell us if any of the advice has been of any merit...

 

[1042686]

To be fair, a few of the browsers you mentioned for PPC Linux don't even work lol. Midori is borked, surf is borked, and Gnome Web is borked (no functional webkit last time I checked), and none of them have JIT. Let's not kid ourselves, the software support for these things is pretty damn terrible. I can count the number of people developing useful software for this platform on one hand. If we want software fixes and ports, we're going to need to do a bounty program or something. I'm willing to pay up if others are as well. This is a platform worth saving.

Edit: Actually, I forgot @q66_ fixed webkit on Void. To my knowledge, it's still broken on Debian, though.

Does this mean we should consider supporting MorphOS? I mean as awesome as Cameron Kaiser has been with TFF, it will end eventually. My only Hangup with MorphOS is the stingy single license. That and I really like leopard as an OS.
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I feel it would only be anywhere relevant if the person was asking something impossible of their computer - getting a G5 to play Youtube is one of the easier things a PPC can do.
Pity the OP hasn't returned to tell us if any of the advice has been of any merit...

I think the ensuing drama turned him off participating. However as he dropped good $$$ on his powermac, I bet you a tenner he’s sifting through the forum for what he needs.

 

[AL1630]

I feel it would only be anywhere relevant if the person was asking something impossible of their computer - getting a G5 to play Youtube is one of the easier things a PPC can do.
Pity the OP hasn't returned to tell us if any of the advice has been of any merit...

Hopefully the OP will come back.

I agree with others that since they were willing to go to the trouble of registering for the forum and ask for advice, I would assume that they care a little about getting their current hardware to work. Obviously, you can't get new 2020 computer performance out of a machine from 2003, but the OP is new to this community and still needs to learn some of the quirks and limitations of using this older technology, just like the other members here have.

I didn't get the impression that they're necessarily trying to use it as a daily driver, more as a side project. If they're willing to work with it and ressurect another old mac, then that's great! If that sort of tinkering isn't for them, so be it.

 

[sparty411]

Does this mean we should consider supporting MorphOS? I mean as awesome as Cameron Kaiser has been with TFF, it will end eventually. My only Hangup with MorphOS is the stingy single license. That and I really like leopard as an OS.
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I think the ensuing drama turned him off participating. However as he dropped good $$$ on his powermac, I bet you a tenner he’s sifting through the forum for what he needs.

Ironically enough, I'd be more willing to pay for MorphOS if it wasn't closed source. They've been hinting at moving to Intel anyway.

 

[z970]

To be fair, a few of the browsers you mentioned for PPC Linux don't even work lol. Midori is borked, surf is borked, and Gnome Web is borked (no functional webkit last time I checked), and none of them have JIT. Let's not kid ourselves, the software support for these things is pretty damn terrible. I can count the number of people developing useful software for this platform on one hand. If we want software fixes and ports, we're going to need to do a bounty program or something. I'm willing to pay up if others are as well. This is a platform worth saving.

Edit: Actually, I forgot @q66_ fixed webkit on Void. To my knowledge, it's still broken on Debian, though.

Yes, but the tremendous difference between them and what's on Leopard is that they are all in active development, and can easily be fixed provided someone with enough inner knowledge came along and did so, which is a far from impossible occurrence. Case in point, Tiger / Leopard has one living browser, and out of the ten (thriving) selections I listed, around five are tested to work fine. And only the WebKit-based options are b0rked on Debian, to my knowledge.

The point was that you know you've got a struggling environment when even OpenBSD is doing better than you on the browser front.

 

[Dronecatcher]

Yes, but the tremendous difference between them and what's on Leopard is that they are all in active development, and can easily be fixed provided someone with enough inner knowledge came along and did so, which is a far from impossible occurrence.

I'm happy to be corrected here but isn't every bit of development in Linux done for X86/ARM/Power8 or whatever architecture but not PowerPC? So that what PPC Linux is left with is code that can be compiled with dependencies still working on PPC.

Look how long we had to even wait for a decent distro to appear that didn't require a few hours at the command-line. After MintPPC folded, it must've been 5 years til @wicknix appeared and saved us all the hassles by putting everything in place in a live disk - up to that point, I was regularly beaten back on here for even asking why developers cant give us another MintPPC.

I feel over the last 5 years a tremendous amount has happened in the Tiger/Leopard camp - and nearly all of it coming from this forum.

 

[z970]

I'm happy to be corrected here but isn't every bit of development in Linux done for X86/ARM/Power8 or whatever architecture but not PowerPC? So that what PPC Linux is left with is code that can be compiled with dependencies still working on PPC.

That's not fully accurate. x86 Linux development is done by the x86 package maintainers, ARM code is handled by the ARM package maintainers, same for POWER, and likewise for anything else.

PowerPC Linux is in a weird, especially decentralized place now where most of its Debian package maintenance is overseen by Adrian Glaubitz, in a way accompanied by the community itself. People like C. Cullen in Fienix, A. Wilcox in Adelie Linux, @q66_ in Void, and @wicknix with his remixes and package recompiling, among many smaller contributing individuals. The platform is entirely held up by enthusiasts.

And as you said, that's not even counting what's gone on in Tiger / Leopard in recent times.

 

[Macbookprodude]

So, I bought a 2003 PowerPC G5 (1.8 1x) w/ 3gb ram on OfferUp. I installed TenFourFox browser, and even some of the most basic sites (like reddit or the HTML version of Gmail) will lag. Stuff like youtube and cnn dont even work. I've seen videos about this machine, and that it should still be able to even watch youtube, but mine can't. So, is there a solution to this? Thanks in advanced for any help!

Get yourself a G5 Quad. That has enough power to do what you need. I watch youtube with no problems using the Quad under Leopard. Anything under a Dual-Core Power Mac G5 won't work.
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Other than the 1.6Ghz G5, you have one of the lowest end G5s with only 3GB of the 4GB of ram it's capable of using.

I'm sorry to be so blunt, but if you were expecting performance equivalent to what you'd find in a late MacBook Pro or Mac Pro - that isn't going to happen. You have a 17 year old Mac.

There are ways to improve performance, but they require work on your part, or using different apps to get what you want. That said, the experience is not going to be precisely like a new Mac would.

At the top of this forum are two pinned threads about TenFourFox. If you want to make this browser faster, look through those. The only other modern option is finding a copy of Leopard Webkit, but even that is out of date. Also, keep in mind that support for Firefox died on PowerPC with version 4. So, TenFourFox, while a fork of that is subject to the limitations of the OS it runs on.

I will leave others to suggest alternative YouTube apps you can use.

Leopard webkit loads Wikipedia and other websites, so its fine for now.
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Hi guys,

My 2 cents on this
Well I wrote a long speach and then decided to forget it.
I'm posting this from a "rich text editor" which has the necessary functionallity and my CPU use
is very low when I type ( arround 20% ) so I think the problem is not the machines
it's the software.
I think if we want to better use our machines we need to setup "community" projects
and try and involve more people.
Maybe we can start "bounties" and get the interest of professional programmers?

Best regards,
voidRunner
View attachment 905362

Soon Classila will be because I just signed up to assist Kaiser with getting 9.3.4 started. He agreed with me that all OS 9 needs is added security protocols - he also liked that the browser be converted to a mobile browser - sadly, its this or nothing as IE5.1.7 is not going to work, netscape is too old.
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I feel it would only be anywhere relevant if the person was asking something impossible of their computer - getting a G5 to play Youtube is one of the easier things a PPC can do.
Pity the OP hasn't returned to tell us if any of the advice has been of any merit...

G5 Quad plays youtube with no issues.

 

[Macbookprodude]

It was made a sticky because it was 2015 and nothing else in its caliber existed yet.



That's incorrect. It remains the only actively developed browser for OS X Tiger / Leopard, two excruciatingly limited operating system platforms.

For PowerPC Linux alone, there remains Arctic Fox (Pale Moon), SpiderWeb (XUL), InterWeb (Basilisk), Firefox 7x, Firefox ESR 68, GNOME Web, Midori, NetSurf, Links, and Surf, all just off the top of my head.



You concluded that the PowerPC platform, meaning everything containing anything from a 601 to 970 chip, was simply unusable in 2020. I acknowledged the obvious and concluded that the only alive and independent browser for Tiger and Leopard, them included, were all platforms with dead ends.

These are two vastly different conclusions.



47 pages of debate in, and we're still discussing what this hypothetical average user might do.

A comedy show...



You can browse the Web perfectly fine on a PPC as long as you know what you're doing. Objectively speaking, this should be something that makes you have issues with being given advice in general. It all has the potential to conflict.

HA ! Even on a Pismo G4 I have no issues But, then again i have been with PPC since 1999 and know a lot about it. I like it a lot and use them as well as my MacBook Pro 2015. Talking about web browsers and websites - on one of my MacBook pros, a 2012 which has bad memory(need to replace that) - I still use safari, though outdated - as long as it goes to wikipedia then it still works. Firefox is also cool to use.

 

[Dronecatcher]

Anything under a Dual-Core Power Mac G5 won't work.

Couldn't be further from the truth....

 

[Macbookprodude]

Ok, my apologies. I was comparing a single G5 versus dual or dual core. Also have the same PowerBook as you. What version of Leopard WebKit do you have ? Also, what SSD can I get for this ? I notice you have an ssd in there ? Do I need a special bracket to install an SSD in the PB 1.67 DLSD ?

 

[Dronecatcher]

What version of Leopard WebKit do you have ? Also, what SSD can I get for this ? I notice you have an ssd in there ? Do I need a special bracket to install an SSD in the PB 1.67 DLSD ?

The current one, 604.5.6_2

Have a search on the forum for SSD options, there's lots of info. I'm ignorant to the insides of my Powerbook, as it already came installed with a SSD - it's also the best performing Powerbook I've had and was an unbelievably generous donation from @Hughmac (I hope he doesn't mind me revealing that!)

 

[Hughmac]

Ok, my apologies. I was comparing a single G5 versus dual or dual core. Also have the same PowerBook as you. What version of Leopard WebKit do you have ? Also, what SSD can I get for this ? I notice you have an ssd in there ? Do I need a special bracket to install an SSD in the PB 1.67 DLSD ?

I believe that particular DLSD has a 128GB mSATA SSD such as this - https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vaseky-128...605711?hash=item5d9a6a238f:g:tg8AAOSwFIFedH~- - mounted in an IDE case such as this - https://www.ebay.com/itm/mSATA-to-2...898705?hash=item3aff187f51:g:K68AAOSwlAZaaVTr.
It should be a straight swap for the original HDD.
Obviously you can get a larger capacity SSD if you need it

Cheers

Hugh

 

[Macbookprodude]

Thank you. I may just order this. I was thinking of putting in an SSD in my Pismo G4, but it maybe logical to put it in my PB G4 1.67

 

[Hughmac]

Thank you. I may just order this. I was thinking of putting in an SSD in my Pismo G4, but it maybe logical to put it in my PB G4 1.67

No problem.
It's just the same items for a Pismo, except for the 128GB limit on storage.
I have one in my G4 Pismo, and dual boot Tiger and Leopard

Cheers

Hugh

 

[Macbookprodude]

As for Leopard, how does Leopard run on the Pismo ? I just got a 32mb video card from Village (can’t think of the name) which adds more video memory and quartz extreme to the Pismo.

 

[Hughmac]

As for Leopard, how does Leopard run on the Pismo ? I just got a 32mb video card from Village (can’t think of the name) which adds more video memory and quartz extreme to the Pismo.

Slowly, but doable. There are issues like the battery not being recognised, DVD Player not working, and screen tearing with the Rage 128 kexts (we found the kexts from Jaguar to work best) - see https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/tip-ati-rage-128-in-leopard.1691634/

Cheers

Hugh

 

[Macbookprodude]

Slowly, but doable. There are issues like the battery not being recognised, DVD Player not working, and screen tearing with the Rage 128 kexts (we found the kexts from Jaguar to work best) - see https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/tip-ati-rage-128-in-leopard.1691634/

Cheers

Hugh

Ok, i got awhile back from a company called Village Tronics, the 32MB VTbook card which helps add more video memory to the Pismo. They are no longer in business, but I did get all the drivers for OS 9 and X, including Leopard - will see if this makes a difference.

 

[Amethyst1]

Ok, i got awhile back from a company called Village Tronics, the 32MB VTbook card which helps add more video memory to the Pismo. They are no longer in business, but I did get all the drivers for OS 9 and X, including Leopard - will see if this makes a difference.

I have a VTBook as well but don't think it's QE-capable - in any case, OS X doesn't enable QE on PCI cards (Cardbus is basically PCI) unless a hack is used.

 

[Macbookprodude]

I thought I read on their website (way back) that this would allow quartz extreme ?
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I have a VTBook as well but don't think it's QE-capable - in any case, OS X doesn't enable QE on PCI cards (Cardbus is basically PCI) unless a hack is used.

Ok I found this -

Mac users get pseudo Quartz Extreme 2D acceleration and OpenGL. I say pseudo because in the Village Tronic FAQS they don’t really say yes or no – instead they say that the card does some of its own hardware acceleration regardless of the OS. MPEG2 hardware acceleration is not working. Hot-plugging/unplugging is not supported by the VTBook on Apple gear yet, but they are working on it.

TechnologyGuide

Thank you for visiting the TechnologyGuide network. Unfortunately, these forums are no longer active. We extend a heartfelt thank you to the entire community for their steadfast support—it is really you, our readers, that drove

www.notebookreview.com

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Why they go out of business is not clear to me ?

 

[Macbookprodude]

Some good news to report, I just turned on my Quad and PB G4 1.67 and leopard WebKit still renders the modern websites very well. It loads Wikipedia and all other websites where tiger’s safari could not.

 

[Rikintosh]

In fact ppc macs can work without problems on the internet, VERY inferior devices are able to access internet with good performance, the big question is that there is a lack of developers interested in developing browsers for ppc. I have a pentium 3 900mhz, 1gb retro-machine that can access the internet perfectly with a windows 7 lite. But, on windows xp it would no longer be possible, because windows xp is unable to use a certain modern SSL (https) protocol currently used, so, even installing a modern browser like chrome on windows xp, we cannot access some pages, but this is easily worked around when using windows 7.

On mac ppc, this is no different, the main problem is the lack of a good browser, all browsers are bad, very few people know how to develop for powerpc, which aggravates the problem. But when using some slightly distracted linux distro, it is possible to use a browser developed for linux, which can surf the internet in a much better way. TenFourFox is a kind of fix, with tons of unnecessary code to circumvent limitations and be able to render pages on an old system (that's why it's so slow).

The only solution for us who are powerpc enthusiasts, would be to get a person who worked a lot with powerpc, to modify some system (10.4 or 10.5) by updating it at the kernel level, and developing a new modern browser.

 

[sparty411]

There are quite a few browsers still maintained for XP @Rikintosh . I'm typing from one right now.

 

[z970]

TenFourFox is a kind of fix, with tons of unnecessary code to circumvent limitations and be able to render pages on an old system (that's why it's so slow).

FYI TenFourFox is slow because it lacks any kind of GPU acceleration. And evidently, Web 3.0 + 1 GHz CPU from 2002 do not mix. - That's the predominant reason.

On the same token, that gives me an idea...

@alex_free, you were able to port Links2 to 10.3. What kind of effort do you think it would take to port over NetSurf as well? It seems to be a very minimal browser with minimal building effort even on supported platforms, so if you were able to build the latest FFMPEG and Curl, I wonder how NetSurf would translate?

NetSurf Web Browser

www.netsurf-browser.org

@sparty411 You do know there's a Service Pack 4?

 

[sparty411]

@sparty411 You do know there's a Service Pack 4?

Yes, I'm using it on this machine

I like to use the XP 'distro' found here. It contains drivers backported from newer Windows OS's, to make XP compatible with some modern hardware, all POS Ready 2009 updates, as well as updated root certificates, etc..