PPC G4...question about upgrade from 10.4.11 to 10.5 on PPC G4

Discussion in 'PowerPC Macs' started by macnags, Dec 15, 2010.

  1. macnags macrumors newbie

    Dec 15, 2010
    Hello! I have a few questions about upgrading my mac in order to use the new iPod touch 4th gen (requires 10.5 or later). I really need to do some upgrading anyhow, and I'm hoping someone here can help me.

    First, here's what I'm working with:
    I have a PPC G4, dual processor 1.25 GHZ, 80GB HD, 768mb RAM, running Tiger 10.4.11. I use CS2 for freelance graphic design (and very occasionally Quark 4 on OS 9). I have 2 external hard drives backing up my system, storing personal files, photos, music, etc. Yes, I've got an oldie, but it's been cranking out loyally over the years with tune ups and TLC, and I need it to live on a while longer.

    1. Can I upgrade to Leopard 10.5 (not snow leopard) and still use my CS2 programs? From what little information I've been able to find, the answer is most likely yes, but with quirks and decreased speed... which I can deal with. I simply cannot afford a new mac (nor the software upgrades required once that happens), so I need to work with what I've got.

    If the answer is yes, then...
    2) are there any other updates in between 10.4.11 and 10.5 that I will have to purchase before upgrading to 10.5?

    3) Also, since I will have to upgrade to a minimum 1GB RAM, can anyone please suggest a good site to buy it from? There seems to be a million options out there. I know that I should really have more RAM anyhow with what software I am using.

    I really do appreciate any help at all. I've been a frequent visitor to this forum and have been helped numerous times by others and their suggestions, but I have never posted a question until now.

    Thanks so much and happy holidays!!
  2. Ungibbed macrumors 6502


    Dec 13, 2010
    CS2 won't have any issues running on Leopard but you mentioned using Quark in OS9. OS 9 support was removed from Leopard so you might be stuck there if you really rely on Quark.

    You can upgrade but I would recommend a clean install just to make sure any leftover bits of Tiger are out of your system directory.

    On the RAM side of things, one good spot I have gotten memory upgrades from for a long time is Data Memory Systems. Great prices and quick shipping (at this time of the year, don't expect it too quickly).

  3. Dave H macrumors 6502

    Dave H

    Mar 2, 2008
    Booting directly to OS 9 is not affected by Leopard, if your MDD supports it.
  4. VideoIdiot macrumors newbie

    Dec 3, 2010
    I think what the other poster meant about OS9 support being dropped in Leopard is the fact that you can no longer place OS9 in the same partition with OS10.5 as could be done with earlier versions of OSX. (or perhaps not)

    I also have a Dual 1.25GHz G4 Mirror Drive Door G4 PowerMac that I recently acquired for a very low price (too low to admit) which came with an Avid Meridian video & audio setup of PCI cards and external breakout boxes for the audio and video inputs & outputs. The Avid system only runs on MacOS9.2.2, or earlier and the system came to me loaded with 9.2.2 & 10.2.6 loaded on the same partition. Like the original poster in this thread, I also wanted to upgrade the OSX 10.2.6 to 10.5.8, but have since learned that it would probably be best to leave the original hard drive untouched and just put 10.5.8 on another hard drive, but I am a bit surprised at the prices I have found when searching to buy a Leopard install DVD. Since I now own 4 different PPC Macs, and my original Leopard install DVD has developed an error when it runs the disc verification during the install process, I am looking for either a Family 5 license version of Leopard 10.5.x, or a Family 5 license version of the Mac Box with Leopard 10.5.x + iLife + iWork to upgrade all of my PPC Macs (Dual 2.7GHz G5 PowerMac, Dual 1.25GHz G4 PowerMac, 1.67GHz G4 PowerBook 17", & 1.5GHz G4 MacMini) to the same OS and software. So, I am here in this thread looking for advice about upgrading my G4 PowerMac to 10.5.8 and for advice on where I can find 10.5.x install DVD as cheaply as possible (I know that the words Mac and cheap don't mix, but I did find my Mac hardware cheap). I also need to know how to clone my existing MacOS9.2.2/10.2.6 hard drive w/Avid software to make an exact "bootable" duplicate of it for another identical Mac/Avid system that has lost access to it's hard drive due to a unrecoverable crash, if anyone can help me with that. Both systems have the required dongles for the Avid software and identical hardware.

    Once I have all of my systems loaded with the same version of MacOSX, I will have to learn more about the Sync program to keep them all matched, file for file, and get my iTunes account set up on all of them, with perhaps the G4 MacMini set up to run as a file server with the external 250gb Lacie hard drive enclosure, so I don't have to duplicate all of the iTunes files on every computer, just the MacMini and the PowerBook w/upgraded 320gb hard drive, to take them with me when I travel (I am a noob when it comes to MacOS, but want to learn it better)

    Thanks in advance for any advice and hope I did not hijack this thread too much.
  5. SmurfBoxMasta macrumors 65816


    Nov 24, 2005
    I'm only really here at night.
    Yes to both......

    I have CS2 running on my QS w/ 10.5.8 nottaproblemo :)

    And I have bought mega-TB's of ram from datamem for almost every mac made since the smurfbox (as well as a bunch of peecees too), also nottaproblemo.......great prices, fast shipping, knowledgeable sales staff, zero-questions-asked-prepaid return/exchange policy....
    what else could you ask for ?.

    gOfOrIt :D
  6. MacHamster68 macrumors 68040


    Sep 17, 2009
    the thing is leopard is slower then tiger , and cost still a hell of a lot for a several year old OS thats not sold by apple since several years now , you get a pc for half the price of leopard that runs windows xp and sync your ipod with it , sortet
  7. woofbow macrumors newbie

    Sep 16, 2010
    Macs = Overpriced Junk?

    First, let me say I've used computers since they were nearly as big as a room and I've been a Mac loyalist since System 6. When was that, 1994 or earlier? I've had many Macs. My best Mac ever was a Power Computing 604e PowerTower Pro that had no problem running OS X (up to 10.3.9, I believe), using XPostFacto. I had that thing really tricked out and it hummed.

    Ever since late 2005 I've used a MacMini (G4 PPC 1.5GHz, 1GB RAM). For the most part, it was fine. It ran CS2 flawlessly and I did a lot of work with it. I can't say I ever had many problems with it or OS X up to 10.4.11. I could even watch H.264-encoded .avi movies in QuickTime -- smoothly -- using Perian.

    The problem I was facing was that almost all the new software I wanted to run -- graphic programs, utilities, writing programs, other stuff -- is now using 10.5 as a drop-off point. Most all of Tiger support has gone by the wayside. So I begrudgingly upgraded to 10.5.

    Biggest mistake I ever made. In a nutshell, my computer is a piece of junk and so is 10.5. Watch movies? Forget it. What a joke. Try watching an H.264-encoded movie in QuickTime now (with Perian) and forget it. The picture doesn't even move. Frames per second? Try 2, 3 or zero. 29.97 is a pipe dream. And if I try advancing the playhead manually? Beachball spins forever. I've never used Force Quit and "kill" in my Terminal as much as I do now...on a daily basis.

    And if I have any other processes going on -- ANY -- forget about even typing into a text box in a browser window or word processing program. I'll get the spinning beachball, initially, frequently and ad infinitum.

    Web surfing? Another friggin joke. Try doing a decent amount of reading, researching, surfing with 5, 6 or more tabs open in your browser and forget it. I've never seen web pages load so slow, a frigging beachball spin so much, or applications crash so often.

    What has computing come to where 1 DARN GIGABYTE of RAM isn't even close to enough for doing the job. And yes, the MacMini's 64MB of VRAM is another cruel joke, too.

    Anyway, my patience is gone for this crummy Mac and the absolute wimp of an operating system that can't even handle multiple threads without constantly invoking "spindump." To further illustrate the mockery that is my computing setup, try anguishing for ONE HOUR while I wait for this piece of cr@p hardware/software combo to UNRAR a friggin 350MB segment.

    Just while typing this, I've had to wait numerous times for the beachball to stop spinning and the Finder to get unstuck. Oh yeah, the Apple Finder is another piece of junk software as well. I'd use PathFinder, which has many nice features, and is far and away superior to the Apple Finder, but my crummy hardware just doesn't have to horsepower to handle it. Too darn slow.

    All of which leads me to my final point. I need a new box. But an Apple? Who the f$*k does Apple thinks it is with the outrageous, outlandish prices it thinks it can command? You can't even get in the door with a decent iMac for under $1600. And a MacPro? Try starting with at least $2500.

    That's an absolute effing joke and a blatant rape of buyers. No way I'm going to spend that kind of money. Not when you can get a PC with more computing power for 1/3rd that price.

    And used Macs? Forget it. The Mac users I've run into don't seem to realize that a used computer is a piece of junk. You can't even give them away. But Mac owners think they can still get $500 for a used G5 -- basically a worthless dinosaur that will struggle under 10.5 and be barely more useful than my heap of junk MacMini.

    I'm pretty much done with Macs. I really liked 10.2, 10.3 and 10.4, but 10.5 is a piece of junk, and I can't imagine 10.6 is much better. Just more overhead, more processor requirements, more RAM requirements. A never-ending upward spiral designed to separate you from your wallet. And now they're racing to release 10.7...what the f*@k is the hurry? Instead, morons, try refining what you already have. Software development has turned into a farce of an industry. Just a stupid race to see how fast they can turn out the next unfinished piece of junk and shove it down the throats of unwitting buyers. No way. Not me.

    And no way am I ever going to use an "iOS" that's basically a kiosk; Symbolic of the dumbing down of computer users. Eff you, Apple. Keep your bonehead tablets.

    The only thing I can be happy about is that OS X gave me some familiarity with Unix. I can build a Unix box or use a Unix-based system. I probably won't go back to Windows, because under the hood of that thing is another nightmare, but who knows. You get much more for the $ and Apple has pi$$ed me off forever.
  8. zen.state macrumors 68020


    Mar 13, 2005

    Sorry to hear your plight with 10.5 hasn't been good. My personal experience with it is excellent on a G4 1.8GHz in an Sawtooth G4 tower with 2GB RAM and a Geforce 6200 video card that supports core image, core video, core animation and quartz extreme. The card is also an opengl monster which helps a lot.

    The 1GB RAM limit and Radeon 9200 are the main burdens. The 9200 is essentially a double downgraded 8500. The 9200 is a downgraded 9000 which is a downgraded 8500. All 3 only support quartz extreme. In 10.4 if you don't have a capable enough GPU it just disables whatever and moves on but in 10.5 it uses the CPU to handle everything the core image GPU's are capable of handling. I think that was the main cog in Apple's move from10.4 to 10.5. It's almost like the eye candy it forced on you even when a capable graphic card isn't present to fully support it.

    There may be ways to disable the video features and stop them from slowing down everything the CPU tries to do. If possible that would really help performance. I will look into that myself also as I am now interested in knowing if that is possible. I know in 10.2-10.4 it was easy to disable/enable quartz extreme.
  9. mabaker macrumors 65816


    Jan 19, 2008
    You should do a completely clean install of 10.5.

    I got Leo working on an iBook 800 and Powermac 800 Dual and on the latter it’s really FAST save for the booting times. You have to be patient with these elderly macs.
  10. zen.state, Mar 27, 2011
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2011

    zen.state macrumors 68020


    Mar 13, 2005
    For woofbow or anyone else's reference..

    Here is a screen shot of my Mac running 10.5 and the following apps:

    1. Camino w/8 tabs open
    2. Pixelmator working on 2 images
    3. Mplayer playing a DivX video
    4. Mail running in the background
    5. Frogblast intranet client
    6. Adium multi-protocol IM client
    7. Transmission seeding approx. 14 torrents

    Take notice of a couple things:

    1. The CPU use is barley at half which you can see in the menubar.
    2. I have 1.25GB RAM free out of 2GB and my uptime is almost 2 weeks now.

    My point is that even doing all these things in 10.5 like playing video, browsing the web with 8 tabs open and editing images of my sister my Mac isn't even under strain. Also, I am running all this on an 11 year old Sawtooth tower with a bus 67MHz slower than what the PowerPC mini has.

    I would say woofbow's issue with 10.5 is a clear case of the user being the main cog in the problem.


    EDIT: I forgot to have the about this mac window open for the shot so here it is..
  11. Nameci macrumors 68000


    Oct 29, 2010
    The Philippines...
  12. Tulipo macrumors member

    Mar 27, 2011
    Kind of agree with WoofBow, but I will stay with Mac.

    I kinda have to agree with WoofBow. I have a PowerMac G4 from like 2001 and will not put 10.5 on it. I also have a powerbook G4 12' 1.5 ghz with 1.25 gigs of ram. It was very fast up until I installed 10.5. And, like WoofBow, I use the force quit function more than ever since going to 10.5.

    The first thing I noticed after going 10.5 (years ago) was how much lag was now present in the dock magnification. I had to turn that off immediately. The other thing I noticed was that video play back got very choppy. I think the problem is mainly due to flash not being very powerpc friendly. The newly installed TenFourFox web browser has sped up my web browsing and internet video streaming playback (including flash video) considerably, but I still can't play video over 360p. I highly recommend anyone with 10.5 and a PowerPc to download TenFourFox.

    That being said, 10.5 is the laggiest OSX I have used OTHER THAN 10.0. 10.0 was terrible, but at the time it was such a refreshing change from OS9 that I didn't mind as much.

    I now have a new macbook pro on order and hope it can last longer (OSX version wise) than my powerbook. If 10.5 was less laggy or if apple still supported powerpc for new OS's I would not be upgrading to a macbook pro, but I kind of feel forced to upgrade. :eek:
  13. PowerGamerX macrumors 6502a


    Aug 9, 2009
    I find a lot of the comments very odd, as, when I had my PBG4 and my iBook for that matter 10.5 ran quite well.

    Anyway, for Leopard, I recommend a minimum of 1gb of ram. As long as your above that and don't do too much multitasking, you should be fine.
  14. Flip2gig macrumors newbie

    Sep 5, 2010

    I feel your pain man. I want to say your experience with OSX are more to blame on hardware rather than software. 10.5 and above are made for intel macs, it's a fact Leopard is a dog on PPC architecture, there's only one way around this, buy an x86 machine...

    I continue to run 10.4 on PPC only because it works and it's what I'm used to. I know I can't run the newest software out there, and it's not any kind of breaking news that support for Tiger is all but dead. True, computer software and hardware should be scalable to last users a good 10+ years, but it's just not going to happen, these people are out to make $$$.

    Apple's just going to stick it to the next generation when they drop support for 32bit x86 chips with 10.7, and the cycle continues. It's just the way this stuff works... Personally I'll continue to run my PowerBook till the doors fall off. Best of luck
  15. zen.state macrumors 68020


    Mar 13, 2005
    Apparently people are missing the point proven by the giant screen shot just above.

    If I can run all that on an 11 year old Sawtooth with a slower bus than any of the Macs the last few posters are using then what is the excuse of those who say it's too slow?

    I guess even when you give people glaring proof they miss or ignore it.

    FACT: A computer is only as capable as the person using it.
  16. Nameci macrumors 68000


    Oct 29, 2010
    The Philippines...
    I have no complains with my PowerMac G4 on my sig other than I have no way to access the app store and run SL and the latest and the greatest apps there is. For a machine which is around 7 years old or so afaik and with a bus speed way much below a gigahertz who is in his right mind to expect it to run like a new Mac Pro? For G)*()) sake if your PPC is too slow for you to be useable get yourself a hexacore or whatever number of core Mac Pro and satisfy yourself.

    But on my system, I can watch youtube just fine, I can watch movies just fine, I can send email just fine, the "thing" respond very quickly to whatever I throw into it. It serves it purpose and with my care it will continue on up until another 10 more years until it quits.

    I still have a PowerMac G3 400 which I still use for OS9 nostalgia and still keeps on chugging on.
  17. Flip2gig macrumors newbie

    Sep 5, 2010
    Leopard being "too slow" is a matter of opinion. However, comparing two identical PPC computers running Tiger and Leopard, 10.4 will benchmark higher scores, end of story.

    Does this translate to a slower computer for day to day tasks? Possibly yes possibly no, it depends on the hardware. G5's and some of the latest G4's might not show any difference, but anything less and you will start to see a less snappy computer.

    Does the OP meet the requirements for Leopard, yes. Should they upgrade to max ram, most definitely. Will they see any difference in day to day tasks? That's the real question, and it can go either way, but what's certain is your computer won't be any faster with leopard.

    At the end of the day, if you have a PPC machine and don't need any new features of 10.5, or the software you use doesn't require it, don't get it!
  18. Nameci macrumors 68000


    Oct 29, 2010
    The Philippines...
    It all boils down to personal preferences. I can live with Tiger, but I just want to max out the support for Safari and iTunes. But either way, I am happy with the speed considering what I have is a 7 year old computer.

    In my case, I scored higher in Leopard than in Tiger. I have the ATI R9700 BTO card if that would make sense.
  19. Flip2gig macrumors newbie

    Sep 5, 2010
    ^ you're in a very small majority then. I've researched the jump to Leopard on PPC till I was blue in the face. Everyone who threw in their 2 cents scored lower after the upgrade. More power to ya brother.
  20. zen.state, Mar 27, 2011
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2011

    zen.state macrumors 68020


    Mar 13, 2005
    What OS on your PowerBook? What benchmarks did you run and what were your scores?

    In my case my Mac does score a little lower with 10.5 but when it comes to real world getting things done I notice no real difference at all. The scores are only a tad lower also. I have not run Tiger at all in over a year but I have kept a lot of former benchmarks.

    Some of my past results:

    1127 on 10.5 and 1173 on 10.4. Very very close.

    Xbench 1.3
    57 on 10.5 and 63 on 10.4. Still very close.
    Some things like the OpenGL test and the memory test were actually a bit faster in 10.5. CPU score about the same. Not surprising results as xbench is one of the more inconsistent benchmarks out there

    SuperPrime (shorter time is better)
    24 seconds on 10.5 and 23 on 10.4. Very close again.
  21. Flip2gig macrumors newbie

    Sep 5, 2010

    I don't have a copy of Leopard to compare results too, but here are my results with Tiger; 20% software overclock on the ATI


  22. woofbow macrumors newbie

    Sep 16, 2010
    Comment Follow-up

    You're probably right about the need to do a clean install, mabaker. Thanks for the suggestion. I have considered it, of course, but hesitated because when I did the initial install, it took literally over two hours to install 10.5. Actually, it may have been closer to four hours, and I'm not exaggerating.

    My MacMini has a really poor performing Matshita ATAPI CD-RW/DVD-R that grinds like crazy when it reads discs. Really annoying and slow. Aside from that, it's also only a single-layer DVD reader, so I had to use an external FireWire DVD drive to do the install from the dual-layer install DVDs. The drive I used is a solid, reliable performer, a slightly aged Pioneer DVR-107D. The read and seek times are not great; maybe that's why the install took so long.

    However, in addition to the excruciatingly slow install time, I know there were some errors in the install, even though it was supposedly successful. For instance, Activity Monitor wouldn't launch. After digging around and examining a working Activity Monitor from a freshly-installed 10.5 backup on an external FireWire drive, I found out that the Activity Monitor app on my newly-upgraded MacMini was trying to call up an executable from inside one of the System Framework folders, and it just wasn't there. So I copied over that executable from the external drive and Activity Monitor has worked fine ever since.

    But my instinct is that that install error likely points to some additional problems that must've occurred during the install, but which I've yet to uncover.

    In the meantime, I did a reinstall of the 10.5.8 combo update, but you're right; I should probably just wipe the slate clean and do a completely clean re-install of 10.5; see if that makes any difference.

    On another note, the disrespectful and fatuous comment made above in the thread by the (ironically) zen-named guy is not appreciated, and certainly not helpful. But it is intriguing to see how with all the activity he has going, his CPU load is so low. By contrast, my paltry CPU's load is ALWAYS at 99% or higher, even with far, far fewer processes going on that what he described.
  23. Joshuarocks macrumors 6502


    Mar 12, 2011
    Somewhere in Cyberspace
    Leopard runs nicely on my PB G4 1.67 Hi-Res.. no problem at all.. and I assume on the G5 Quad when I get it, Leopard will also run very fast on it.

    Its a shame that the mac app store's apps are all intel.. not fair if you ask me.. even the smallest and lightest apps require snow leopard to run them.. Apple loves to screw its loyal customers.. I think Universal Binary is a good thing, but to many, its not(look at the mac app forums - i just got chewed out over there just because i complained about some apps not being universal binary)
  24. zen.state, Mar 29, 2011
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2011

    zen.state macrumors 68020


    Mar 13, 2005
    Yes I am just so fatuous..

    I am not the one that went on an ignorant rant against Apple over my own shortcomings as a computer user.

    At first I offered you a reasoned post to try and help you but then after reading more of your long winded rant of misuse and misinformation I felt obligated to offer proof of your errors in both use and judgment.

    When reasonable human beings encounter difficulty using something they seek out help and advice from people who know better and can help. They don't go tearing into angry rants that are based on nothing but their own personal experience that is a direct result of personal user error.

    Sorry to muddy the waters with truth and facts..
  25. woofbow macrumors newbie

    Sep 16, 2010

    Thanks for the recommendation, Tulipo. I hadn't come across TenFourFox before your post, but I took a look at the webpage and will give it a try. I've used Namaroka over the past year (I'm still at 3.6.13), but I can't say I've been overjoyed with its performance. It hangs on a daily basis, particularly if the browser has been in the background for any length of time and I bring it to the foreground.

    During Namaroka hangs, I'll inspect it via Activity Monitor's "Open Files and Ports", and it's always hanging on one of three or four files:

    cookies.sqlite or
    places.sqlite-journal (both in my profiles folder; and yes, I dump my browser cache regularly and keep a very low count for history and downloads)

    Also, interestingly (and I can't imagine why it would hang at these, but):



    Anyway, despite the constant hangs, I choose to use Namaroka over Safari and other browsers because of the following reasons: NoScript, AdBlocker Plus, CS Lite, Autopager, Flashgot, Unplug and a couple of other indispensible (to me) extensions/add-ons.

    That being said, I'll give TenFourFox a whirl and see what happens. Thanks again for the recommendation. Cheers...

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