President Obama: 'You Cannot Take an Absolutist View' on Encryption Issue

[got556]

Very good comments by Obama, couldn't agree anymore with him. Very sensible.
[doublepost=1457911999][/doublepost]

You do know that cannot be done right? When it comes to criminal investigations it is under the law of that land where it's committed usually. And that includes any court orders requesting Apple release evidence for that investigation, it won't matter what happens in America over this really.

Ever heard of ITAR? Granted our own government breaks it's own heavily enforced laws when it concerns the middle east and what they give away these days...

 

[duffman9000]

The current debate, and the government’s request, have nothing to do with network security. The government is asking for access to a particular iPhone DEVICE pursuant to a legal search warrant and in compliance with Riley v. California, and asking Apple for a special OS that will disable the built-in self destruct mechanisms so that they can gather evidence about a terrorist event where 14 innocent people were killed in cold blood. They are NOT asking for any access for any kind of network access, not to anyone’s network, not Apple’s, not yours, and not mine. People who say they are are the ones spreading FUD.

Like anything the FBI says nowadays I have to think about every half truth. The FBI is asking for a method to allow sending pins remotely to the device. Now stop and think how the FBI is going to accomplish this without network access. In this case, it has to be remote access to Apple's network.
[doublepost=1457920059][/doublepost]

Substantial steps should be taken to protect prosperity, security, and openness in a networked world. A free and open Internet is critical to both self-government and economic growth. The United States Government
should reaffirm the 2011 International Strategy for Cyberspace. It should stress that Internet governance must not be limited to governments, but should include all appropriate stakeholders, including businesses, civil
society, and technology specialists.

The US Government should take additional steps to promote security, by (1) fully supporting and not undermining efforts to create encryption standards; (2) making clear that it will not in any way subvert, undermine, weaken, or make vulnerable generally available commercial encryption; and (3) supporting efforts to encourage the greater use of encryption technology for data in transit, at rest, in the cloud, and in storage.

Choke on these words Obama.

 

[ndpitch]

**** Obama.

Treasonous scumbag.

Obama is technologically inept. I'd expect nothing less from a community organizer who still uses a Blackberry and merrily conducts extrajudicial assassinations of American citizens and routinely flies Pentagon drones all over the United States.

Obama is a totalitarian at heart. Worst president...ever.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

 

[Ethosik]

And again, I don't think our government should have the right to force a software development company to create an entire custom OS. And you guys seriously believe this will only be used once? Really?

 

[hiddenmarkov]

No, we are saying stop wetting your panties over it.
ALL the hype about terrorist attacks is to make you scared, the REAL risks are extremely small.
Scared people are more likely to allow others to make decisions for them, in this case the government
Scared people are more likely to make stupid decisions.
You through your fear and paranoia are being manipulated.

You are grossly over estimating the risks because you feel you have no control. The other much much higher risks like driving a car, being shot by someone you know, being shot by police, you believe you have control and therefore you minimise those risks, where as in reality they are hundreds or thousands of times more likely to happen than being killed by a terrorist.

You are more likely to be killed by a vending machine falling on you than by terrorists. Do you want a ban on vending machines ?

So much this. The US has been here before. the McCarthy witch hunts. Commies, commies everywhere!!!!
We must find them. In time this if it had any pretense of being a legit venture quickly turned into a ugly beast.

The sick punchline being this witch hunt was not finding dangerous communist spies in droves. Free thinkers yes, people not meeting the John Wayne Poster child idea of what a red blooded American was, yes. commies...no. the good spies were blending in.


Sad fact to how the US handles these things. They think they patented spy 101 at Langley and no one else knows the tricks of the trade. Which is odd. We know for a fact we trained many of these people in several progammes. Enemy of my enemy is my friend or nation building programmes in hotpots around the world (middle east a big client of our advisor programmes btw).

Not all use this training as we intended. This ofc never makes it into fear mongering speeches. Can't tell the sheeple we fear these terror leaders because they were A+++ students of our advisor programmes run in the past. And have passed on their knowledge to their crews.

 

[Marlor]

I do not agree with this at all. Any software development company should not be forced to make an entire new (fork) of a product. This isn't just one line of code here. It will take some time to get this done and get it done right (testing). How can people agree with this? It is not possible to do what the FBI wants UNLESS Apple creates a new OS.

Also, right now, Apple has a plausible way of stopping repressive regimes from getting a backdoor into iPhones. They simply say that there is no technical way to do so, so they cannot cooperate.

Once they create a new, less secure software image, and give the US Government access to it, then that is no longer possible. They can't deny China access to that software image without transparently supporting one government over another.

Apple will likely face demands for access to the new software they have created from governments all over the world. They will no longer be able to say: "there is no way to do that". They can only say "we don't trust your government enough to give you access"... which opens them up to sanctions.

Creating a new, less secure, version of iOS just opens up the floodgates for regimes all over the world to have a backdoor into iPhones. That is a massive security threat. This pandora's box shouldn't be opened just to satisfy curiosity over what is on a terrorist's phone.

 

[marco114]

I think the government has just gotten lazy. They think the magic bullet is just to spy on us and read our phones. Well I got news for ya, we will employ stronger encryption and decentralize it our of Apple's control. Only good will come of all this. Maybe not for this case, but in a couple years from now, they will have no information, ever.

 

[sir1963nz]

The human mind. You memorize a long enough encryption key and take the 5th, or are an old guy who just forgets stuff...
[doublepost=1457917280][/doublepost]

Tell that to the Christian vending machine owners who formerly lived in fairly peaceful little towns in Northern Iraq.

Past performance is no guarantee of future results. Same is true of all local mortality stats.

What about all the bombs, missiles etc the US fires killing women and children ?
How about all the munitions the US sells to dissidents in other countries.
How about the schools the US has bombed because they were using 20 year old maps.
The USA is far from clean.
[doublepost=1457923728][/doublepost]

I'm not paranoid or scared at all, I expect the government to do their best at preventing an attack and if they need to get into that iPhone to get info on their accomplices than Apple should do it.
I'm not blind about the possibility of another large attack and ignoring it doesn't make the threat go away.

Well statistically americans are more likely to be killed by americans than by any other group. So if you want every american to be safe, the best method would be to lock you all up.

You ARE paranoid and you are frightened.

You are stupidly and blindly willing to allow everyones civil rights to be trod on to reduce your fear.
[doublepost=1457923923][/doublepost]

So much this. The US has been here before. the McCarthy witch hunts. Commies, commies everywhere!!!!
We must find them. In time this if it had any pretense of being a legit venture quickly turned into a ugly beast.

The sick punchline being this witch hunt was not finding dangerous communist spies in droves. Free thinkers yes, people not meeting the John Wayne Poster child idea of what a red blooded American was, yes. commies...no. the good spies were blending in.


Sad fact to how the US handles these things. They think they patented spy 101 at Langley and no one else knows the tricks of the trade. Which is odd. We know for a fact we trained many of these people in several progammes. Enemy of my enemy is my friend or nation building programmes in hotpots around the world (middle east a big client of our advisor programmes btw).

Not all use this training as we intended. This ofc never makes it into fear mongering speeches. Can't tell the sheeple we fear these terror leaders because they were A+++ students of our advisor programmes run in the past. And have passed on their knowledge to their crews.

Its not just knowledge, its money and weapons that the US has supplied to these people too.

 

[DPUser]

Once they create a new, less secure software image, and give the US Government access to it, then that is no longer possible. They can't deny China access to that software image without transparently supporting one government over another.

This is important.

Maybe it's been said in the 500 or so posts that preceded mine, but the present case is different from most in that the subject iPhone's owner is dead. If the owner was still alive, law enforcement could, under warrant secured from the Court, subpoena the phone information and incarcerate the owner if he/she refused to provide access.

By the way this thread didn't start out being a referendum on president Obama, but I sincerely appreciate all the dispassionate, thoughtful, relevant and informed comments ("worst president ever", "treasonous scumbag", etc) offered here and assure those who have posted such remarks I have, as a result, reassessed my feelings with regard our president. Thank you for sharing your objective findings.

 

[sir1963nz]

Also, right now, Apple has a plausible way of stopping repressive regimes from getting a backdoor into iPhones. They simply say that there is no technical way to do so, so they cannot cooperate.

Once they create a new, less secure software image, and give the US Government access to it, then that is no longer possible. They can't deny China access to that software image without transparently supporting one government over another.

Apple will likely face demands for access to the new software they have created from governments all over the world. They will no longer be able to say: "there is no way to do that". They can only say "we don't trust your government enough to give you access"... which opens them up to sanctions.

Creating a new, less secure, version of iOS just opens up the floodgates for regimes all over the world to have a backdoor into iPhones. That is a massive security threat. This pandora's box shouldn't be opened just to satisfy curiosity over what is on a terrorist's phone.

IF Apple gives it to the FBI here is what will happen.
The US will be accused of supporting terrorists by denying lawful governments/law enforcement from having the same access as in the US. US technology company WILL have sanctions applied.
ALL american technology will be tainted with the "CIA Backdoor" label.
US citizens may find the have fewer rights in overseas countries, if they can not protect their own citizens, why should they protect american citizens ?

The likes of India will produce and sell cheap open source computers, switches, routers, telecoms, etc etc etc to the rest of the world that the US is barred from.

96% of the world does not live in the USA.
the US is no longer the world biggest economy, thats the EU, china may well be 2nd

 

[vvswarup]

Sometimes overstepping legal bounds when "going around them", and thus resulting in the courts ruling the evidence to be inadmissible, sometimes letting the provably guilty (murderers, etc.) go free. And that's what the U.S. Constitution appears to require for certain types of evidence.

Way to take me out of context. When I said "go around them" I meant do things like picking locks if the door to the house is locked.

I'll have you know that the Constitution doesn't explicitly call for excluding evidence found to have been obtained illegally. The provision for excluding evidence obtained illegally was established by the Supreme Court in Weeks v. US in 1914. In any case, I digress.

Guess what-the Founding Fathers didn't write the Bill of Rights just because it sounds great on paper. It's supposed to, among other things, protect us from unreasonable search and seizure. Until the Supreme Court ruled that if the police obtained evidence illegally, the state couldn't admit it in court, the police didn't give a thought to the Fourth Amendment. I'll have you know that in the Weeks vs. US case, the defendant's crime was sending lottery tickets in the mail. He wasn't a murderer or a rapist. The police just couldn't be bothered to get a warrant.

No one likes it when depraved criminals go free. But that should be motivation for the police to have their ducks in a row and not violate citizens' rights.

 

[JeffyTheQuik]

Not every single issue, but hopefully core crucial ones... especially when these jokers have taken an oath to defend and protect the Constitution!

Currently, there's no major candidate running who seems to get this.

I think they have to actually read it first, and agree with what it says, especially when it goes against what they, in their hearts, want to do.

Every time I read the Bill of Rights, including the 27th Amendment (which was submitted with the other 12 original Amendments, yet ratified in 1991), it says what the Government can't do, yet these people pass and sign laws, only to let the Supreme Court figure it out.

Yeah, so defending and protecting it is a long way away...

 

[dk001]

A request which is even more fraught with Constitutional issues, not the least of which is the fourth amendment's limit on eminent domain (the Just Compensation clause) which requires fair market value be offered for this. Will Congress approve a single legislative action which will cost a trillion dollars? And which would make that trillion dollar investment worthless in less than six months?

Apple made $234B in 2015 in revenues, most of which was from iOS products. They don't break out the value of the software from the hardware but I would expect them to claim quite convincingly that half of the value is in the software. So assign a yearly revenue of $100B. Apply a reasonable market-derived value per revenue factor of about 10 and you end up with $1 Trillion being the cost of this little endeavor. That is about two years' worth of defense spending, by the way.

Coming from market value, the market cap of Apple could convincingly be claimed as at least 75% based on the viability of iOS. Which means that 0.75 x $567B or about $425.5B would be a market-based valuation of iOS, very conservatively.

Between the two methods of valuation, we have a $0.4-1.0 Trillion valuation at the low end, and up to $2.3 Trillion on the higher end (well, much much more, like $25Trillion, if you apply the EV or RV ratios to iOS instead of the lower Apple EV ratio).

If they did this, Apple's business would plummet. Nationalizing iOS would force the vast majority of customers to look to alternative mobile OS products. Apple obviously loses here, but so does the US economy. Android would obviously be the big winner, but then the DoJ needs to float the idea of declaring eminent domain on Android too, maybe Windows next, at which point we end up with non-US ventures like Tizen owning the market and the DoJ with at least $3 Trillion invested in worthless software.

Yeah, that is an empty threat from Comey and he knows it. As sensible as the Florida sheriff threatening to arrest Tim Cook because Apple has filed a motion to vacate the order.

I think if this started to come to pass, we would no longer have any American (US) companies in this sector of any worth. They would all locate overseas. I doubt it would be difficult for some countries to come up with serious "benefits" to entice them.

 

[firewood]

I think if this started to come to pass, we would no longer have any American (US) companies in this sector of any worth. They would all locate overseas. I doubt it would be difficult for some countries to come up with serious "benefits" to entice them.

Isn't Apple really based in Ireland? That's where they seem to pay taxes on a majority of their business, due to a few beneficial laws. Maybe a few more beneficial laws? "Designed in Ireland. Near empty tech support spaceship in California." 8-P

 

[hiddenmarkov]

I think if this started to come to pass, we would no longer have any American (US) companies in this sector of any worth. They would all locate overseas. I doubt it would be difficult for some countries to come up with serious "benefits" to entice them.

this also a concern. this crusade gets its way...it be +1 more reason to outsource. the market for hard to break/unbreakable encryption is there. Not allowed one place, allowed in another....they can get that money really.

Its already in place even. many places have datacentres all over. Any in the US a convenience feature for the US. Mainly US IP block range for routing as I know well from being overseas for years some places don't dig the foreign IP's. If lucky you can plead with them to get access. If not, VPN says hi.


No skin off my nose really....my cloud provider's tend to run Asia servers anyway so data on them primarily regardless. US goes all out....Asia says meh, we could use the money, its the US shifting their stuff. US interests sneaking across the border if only data wise to live a better controlled data life, the irony is strong here.

 

[phrehdd]

Before I rant - I'll say I am not a GOP fan nor a Dem fan. Obama should shut his pie hole as he is in no position to tell us how to think given his own actions which remain suspect. Yes, I am sure there are Obama-ites who will be upset with my comment and demand examples. Sorry - you are crap out of luck since I have commented in more appropriate places the entirety of my disdain with solid examples. - So just consider it here, as merely opinion.

I have heard varying stories of what this battle is about and if he wants the idea of Miranda as a parallel (search and seizure laws), then he should has for only the clear text from that phone and that is all AFTER a proper warrant or appropriate subpoena is provided. A more ideal scenario would be to clone out the encrypted data and re-encrypt it (with firmware not software) and deliver the newly encrypted data to the Gov't which would have the means to decrypt. This leaves Apple and anyone else out of the equation for potentially viewing the data or saving it in a meaningful way.

 

[tripmusic]

Airport security... Thanks to the greatest lie of our time, 9/11

 

[PBRsg]

I thought the whole point of encryption was that it is meant to be absolutist in its nature.

After 7 years of Obama, I have turned into an absolutist.
[doublepost=1457937727][/doublepost]

People think Trump is scary...but the Obama administration is a whole different beast. And to think he actually taught con law at some point.

"Let's kill this US Citizen because we feel his propaganda is too good."
"Sure, a data dragnet on everyone is great."
"Let's make sure that the government can get into anything."
"Hey, let's track everyone's cellphones. Why not?"

Obama is smooth and VERY calculating - far more dangerous than the idiot full of bluster that is Trump.
[doublepost=1457938410][/doublepost]

What's with all of the Obama bashing?! I mean, he gave us free phones, some stuff, some other stuff, and now my mom was able to get the heart transplant she wanted, thanks to the Obama Healthcare Act. He made warned us about those crazy ass veterans by signing the NDAA. He was the FIRST BLACK PRESIDENT FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! Never mind that his mother was a white hooker! Who cares!!! The dude hopped on a stealth hello chopter and personally killed Osama Beans Ladle! And while doing all of that, FOR US, he makes sure to rack up the most debt in history, all so our children's children won't have to worry about money. Because worrying about money is needless when you don't have any and have easy access to everyone else's. This man is a national HE ROW! Not to mention his husband is very handsome. I don't have the time or money to go on vacation so he selflessly does that for me and wracks up a nice tab so he can live for the both of us. GEEZ guys! LEAVE OBAAAAMAAA ALOOOOONE!

Now if you'll excuse me... I have to get some sleep for my operation tomorrow. My left leg is longer than my right, so they're going to do a procedure that will help my knee grow.

Well, I was down on Obama, but you turned me around!
[doublepost=1457938531][/doublepost]I was 100% on Apple's side in this encryption saga. After listening to the Marxist in chief, I am now 200% on Apple's side.

 

[8692574]

My conclusion so far is that you cannot take an absolutist view on this. So if your argument is strong encryption no matter

YES WE CAN!

 

[mdridwan47]

Maher has a bug up his butt about Islam in general, he brings it up every show. He's pretty close to Trump crazy on this one.

Maybe because Radical Islamic extremism is a legit threat?? Good lord! Liberals just will not pay attention about Islamic terrorism after everything that has been done so far. No wonder liberalism is dying and Nationalism is rising. Michael Savage was right I guess, Liberalism is a mental disorder.

 

[You are the One]

Turkey has just suffered a terrorist bombing, killing 27 injuring 75
Ivory Coast has just suffered a terrorist shooting, killing 12
France, UK, Thailand, Bali, Indonesia Russia, China have all suffered terrorist attacks

These terror attacks are all orchestrated and carried out by intelligence services and/or deep state resources, often using mercenaries or private operational terrorism companies and of course always for political purposes.

The real perpetrators of last weeks attack in Turkey were very likely linked to the Grey Wolves.

Turkey has been notoriously involved in terrorism since the end of WW2 and the start up of the stay-behind organisation Operation Gladio.

Operation Gladio: CIA Network of “Stay Behind” Secret Armies

Turkish-Uyghur Terror Inc. - America's Other Al Qaeda

On the Trail of Turkey’s Terrorist Grey Wolves

Turkish Grey Wolves: Forgotten Story of Cold War-Era Paramilitary Group

Russia versus NATO's Gladio 2.0: Turkish jihad from China to Syria

Good ol' CIA-asset Tim Osman, a.k.a. Osama Bin Laden with zionist Zbigniew Brzezinski.

 

[apolloa]

Tons of products already have U.S. government mandated export restrictions. Some from major industries (aviation, etc.)

That still has nothing to do with criminal investigations and court orders placed on manufacturers. If a plane crashes then an American company making parts of a plane will be required by law to pass over evidence for the investigation.

Ever heard of ITAR? Granted our own government breaks it's own heavily enforced laws when it concerns the middle east and what they give away these days...

Nope, never heard of it. What is ITAR?

 

[stylinexpat]

Posted this in another thread but this one talks about Obama.

What many forget is the hypocrisy or double standard from Obama and America on this issue. Remember last year when China wanted access? Look at what Obama had to say then..

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-obama-china-idUSKBN0LY2H520150302

http://qz.com/356233/apples-capitulation-to-china-undermines-obamas-tough-talk-on-snooping/

And then look at what he has to say today

http://www.techradar.com/news/world...dire-warning-on-the-future-of-privacy-1316781

 

[Chupa Chupa]

But it is not the only way in.

Nice try. But I didn't say there wasn't another way in. I said "No way to brute force unlock it with the off the shelf OS installed." Nearly every example you gave required extraordinary measures that sidestepped, not used the original OS, to unlock, and may or may not provide results. And the example that did use the OS, but cloned the RAM, would statistically, take forever and a day to find the right passcode. So not a productive brute force solution there either.

But you raise a great point -- why doesn't the FBI use one of the methods you listed instead of asking Apple to make a key? Certainly it has the best engineers and equipment at its disposal. All the time they've lost when they could have done any of these months ago and not started this controversy.

 

[firewood]

That still has nothing to do with criminal investigations and court orders placed on manufacturers. If a plane crashes then an American company making parts of a plane will be required by law to pass over evidence for the investigation.

Nope. When that drone crashed in Iran. The U.S. company told them nothing.