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We can't have a Pollyannaish view of our privacy, and security.

And if ONE iPhone is that big of a threat to National Security, the people in charge of it are doing something really, deadly, seriously wrong...
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But you raise a great point -- (1)why doesn't the FBI use one of the methods you listed instead of asking Apple to make a key? (2)Certainly it has the best engineers and equipment at its disposal. (3)All the time they've lost when they could have done any of these months ago and not started this controversy.

(1) Because making Apple produce a key is easier for bulk decryption.

(2) Our tax dollars at work. We tax payers unwittingly create the best enemies. Especially, given all the drama regarding the NSA, etc, snooping on us. The government nose trying to get in our lives.

(3) The real controversy should be why they are so lazy.
 
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The fifth amendment says in part: "nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself". Someone needs to argue that our phones have grown to be an extension of ourselves and thus protected by the fifth amendment.
 
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The fifth amendment says in part: "nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself". Someone needs to argue that our phones have grown to be an extension of ourselves and thus protected by the fifth amendment.

The court has already ruled that fingerprints aren't protected by the fifth amendment. We're not even born with the iPhone.
 
When your argument is we need to do X because you know, the children, you don't have a strong argument. Yes the cost of encryption is child pornographers and drug dealers can hide information. The answer is get them a different way. Find different evidence. There was a day that none of this existed, yet we still captured criminals.

Our government is thinking that our rights need to yield to the ease of police and investigative jobs.

Our rights first. Our privacy first. Law enforcement has to work with that limitation. If we can encrypt then government doesn't get to know. They have to find another way to gather evidence. They need to get used to saying "we don't know" and "We cant look there". That's fine, even if there will be consequences.
 
**** Obama.

Treasonous scumbag.

Obama is technologically inept. I'd expect nothing less from a community organizer who still uses a Blackberry and merrily conducts extrajudicial assassinations of American citizens and routinely flies Pentagon drones all over the United States.

Obama is a totalitarian at heart. Worst president...ever.
I love how he mentions the airport security thing, because there is absolutely no proof whatsoever that airport security has protected us from anything.
or as if anything like the "patriot" act was something citizens even had a say in. "concessions" made weren't something we were asked about. politicians decided that for us.
 
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It's been like this for a long time. They think we are supposed to trust them to protect us. Only thing worse than a slimy used car salesman is a career politician. Scumbags.

Lets not insult used car salesmen by associating them with someone that shows no respect for the constitution, hasn't actually ever held a real job, and lives to make everything about race. At least the used car salesman is contributing to the economy, paying taxes, and providing a service.
 
(1) Because making Apple produce a key is easier for bulk decryption.

(2) Our tax dollars at work. We tax payers unwittingly create the best enemies. Especially, given all the drama regarding the NSA, etc, snooping on us. The government nose trying to get in our lives.

(3) The real controversy should be why they are so lazy.

Agree. I was posing rhetorical questions.
 
Typical rhetoric from a far right fascist masquerading as a democrat.
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I love how he mentions the airport security thing, because there is absolutely no proof whatsoever that airport security has protected us from anything.

That's because it is a charade, designed to ensure the power of the elite and to make obscene amounts of money for corporations. There is no terrorist threat.
 
This is just like the "Just War" face of Obama, but overall he is a good president. I hope Apple wins this case and the problem get solved without having a government with too much power that we end up loosing our privacy.
 
"If the government can't get in, everyone is walking around with a swiss bank account in their pocket." Exactly. That's the point - to keep you people in DC the **** out.
 
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. . . .Even identifying all homicides (non-accident and non-self-inflicted) as "black on black" to fit your frankly racist dismissal of those deaths as unimportant, there were (per http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm) 11,208 homicides in that same year, which is almost exactly one third of all firearm-related deaths. . . . .

I never said 'those deaths' were unimportant. What is unimportant is getting the stats correct. The media and the government don't collect the stats that this poster was quoting. You made some assumptions that while not unreasonable, are still not facts. Don't report assumptions as facts, they aren't.

And for the record it is the media that thinks gang deaths and minority on anyone crime is not important. That is evident in the media reports every time a white policeman kills a black or muslim suspect versus every time a muslim or black suspect kills anyone same race or not. The media loathes reporting the race or religion unless the suspect's race is white or christian. Why is that? It is simply because the predominately white media makes its money by fanning the fires in the race game.

The government has the same bias. Honest and real crime statistics do not fit in the current government's agenda.
 
I don't have the stats, but I seem to recall more "airliner hijacked to Cuba/et.al." news stories a few decades ago. Also the guy who asked for ransom money and a parachute.

Take a look at the data. Look at other countries and their airport security.
Hijacking was on the downswing (going out of fashion) back in the 90's. The success rate was pretty low. The only thing I see (I travel way too much) is a complex controlling high cost impediment to comfortable smooth air travel. So many countries out there do it better.
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The only reason it is easier for the authorities to break the encryption on an Android device is because they can image the encrypted volume to a PC and then perform a brute force attack on the encrypted volume. Try an unlimited amount of pass code combinations until they get one which can be derived into the key needed to decrypt the volume.

With the iPhone they cannot do this because the phone doesn't allow you to make a copy of the encrypted user volume. Apple has not included any method to perform it. So the FBI has two options.

1. Attempt to brute force the lock code on the device itself which risks the contents being erased.
2. Take the NAND flash off the logic board in the phone, put it into a reader and then extract all the bits from the NAND to do a brute force attack.

If they do the second one, there is a risk the NAND could be damaged. There is also a risk that they don't have the technical expertise required to perform the code side where they need to work out what encryption is being used, how it is implemented, how long the key is, what the salt is that Apple employed (as the passcode is only part of the key). This is all very complicated stuff and why risk it when they can get a court order?

Now the reason I brought up the Android thing is because at the moment the Google supplied encryption system has issues. One it's easy to extract the encrypted volume from the phones. And two many Android devices do not have the capability to encrypt using hardware, they have to use a software based encrypter and decrypter. This is slow and so many OEM's have the encryption system turned off by default. This mostly affects older devices but some new ones as-well, especially budget handsets.

We have a situation where 100% of iOS 8 and iOS 9 devices. That's all iPhones and iPads sold in the past 4-5 years have by default encrypted archives. And then you have Android with at most 50% of flagships and 1% of 3 year old devices being encrypted. That's the difference we're talking about here.

But that wont stop consumers in the future from using apps and custom firmware on their Android devices that offer better encryption. Just as we have seen on Windows, OS X and Desktop Linux with third party Apps like TrueCrypt being the go to volume and file encrypter. Windows and OS X both ship with built in volume encrypters but people still recommend TrueCrypt because it has been shown both of those are not secure enough, law enforcement can break them.

People who care about their security will always go where that security is available. Right now that is not on Android. But it is the only platform out of the two (iOS being the other) that allows deep system integrated applications that could enable 3rd party encryption. iOS is controlled entirely by Apple and so if they lose this case and have to weaken their encryption it will be a dead end for the privacy concious and it will be yet another feature only Android phones can offer.

I hope you understand where I'm coming from here.

One aspect I would like to add ... That auto-erase after X failed tries security feature is an option on Android also.
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I'm not paranoid or scared at all, I expect the government to do their best at preventing an attack and if they need to get into that iPhone to get info on their accomplices than Apple should do it.
I'm not blind about the possibility of another large attack and ignoring it doesn't make the threat go away.

So you are basically advocating police state powers.
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Isn't Apple really based in Ireland? That's where they seem to pay taxes on a majority of their business, due to a few beneficial laws. Maybe a few more beneficial laws? "Designed in Ireland. Near empty tech support spaceship in California." 8-P

Apple has several "satellite" regional headquarters however the primary body of the company is US based. The Ireland example is the primary for the EU. Tax benefit and applicable currently to just the EU.
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Nope. When that drone crashed in Iran. The U.S. company told them nothing.

Then again, that company was bound by National Security rules and not allowed to say anything under penalty. As far as I know, I don't think we export that particular brand of drone either ... ;)
 
'If the government can't get in, then everyone is walking around with a Swiss bank account'

That is truly irresponsible. Why can't I have a secure device that protects my information and not be accessible to anyone else on the planet? If we have to accept that the government need access to absolutely everything upon request then we have no privacy whatsoever. You either have privacy or you don't.

1984 is fast approaching.

Just wait until someone invents a mind reading device. They'll then want to monitor your thoughts. How can we apprehend the bad thought thinkers if we can't monitor their thoughts? We must apprehend them!

I've said it before. When the government starts being honest and open about everything from the JFK assassination to Roswell and UFO/Black projects, THEN I'll consider letting them monitor everything I do. How do we know those aliens aren't doing something illegal? They should be apprehended! How do I know Obama doesn't have porn on his Blackberry right now for that matter? Am I allowed to monitor it and check to be SURE he doesn't? Do we the citizens get to monitor the NSA and see what they're doing? Who's policing the police? It's double standard hypocrisy.

The whole damn thing is a rotten barrel of crap. Either you have a reasonable expectation of privacy or you don't. It used to be as long as you were in your own home, you did. No longer. They have devices that can see through the walls. They have guns that can shoot you through those walls with that scope. They listen to every unencrypted phone call you make. They assume guilt. The NRA goes ballistic on gun rights, but they don't seem to give a crap about privacy rights. It seems no one does. FEAR is the enemy. You're 100000x more likely to die in a car wreck on the way to work than a terrorist incident, but we should give up our Constitutional rights for that 0.000000000001% chance it will happen. Right. But hey, if it doesn't go the government's way, they can just STAGE a major incident like 9-11 to get the fear back up again and pass more laws to turn this into Russia Mark 2.
 
The court has already ruled that fingerprints aren't protected by the fifth amendment. We're not even born with the iPhone.

The courts are part of the problem. They are making laws, not interpreting them (see Citizens United where abstract legal entities known as corporations have been ruled to be living breathing people with RIGHTS...the same rights we the people are being denied).

When you have a corrupt government run by corrupt politicians and corrupt judges, the meaning of court rulings pretty much become moot. They'll just rule whatever it takes to get whatever they want. I'm half convinced the framers of the Constitution could have written tons of provisions to prevent corruption and have term limits and outlaw unlimited political spending, etc. and these scum bags would STILL find a way around it or have the courts rule some ridiculous nonsense saying it says something that it clearly doesn't say or saying your phone has its own set of legal rights (Your phone has the right to free speech and by encrypting it, you are denying it's right to tell us everything it knows!)
 
"What mechanisms do we have available to even do simple things like tax enforcement"

Ahh there it is, they want to hack phones to siphon off more tax dollars so they can preserve all the corporate tax cuts for themselves.
 
I'm amazed that so many of you think Obama actually has something to do with all of this. Quite laughable really. You probably also think your vote actually counts and will help decide the next presidency. The 'President' has already been chosen. You can swap Hello Kitty for Obama and she'd be spewing the same **** as he is. The president has the same job Tom Cruise has. No different!
 
The US does not have exclusivity on this "tech".

According to Apple, they haven't developed this "tech" yet. What's to prevent Congress or the feds from mandating exclusivity of this new tech Internationally? The U.S. already ignores certain warrants and extradition requests from some countries in which U.S. businesses do business. Some for National security reasons.
 
This would only catch very careless criminals - the type who would probably publically announce their crime, anyway. Any reasonably competent criminal does their own encryption of documents and communications. It doesn't matter if the platform has encryption if the document is encrypted. This sounds like one of those suggestions that wouldn't do much to hurt the bad guys...

I could be sending a secret message right here, using some pre-devised system of my own invention... :)
 
Lol Oh Wait you're being serious. Since when was android secure? No one running Android really thinks it's safe, the number of exploits are insane. You don't hear the fbi asking google for a backdoor or Microsoft for a windows back door do you! Cos they already got one.

You don't have a clue.
Android has had device level encryption since 5.x.
It was optional. Now on 6.x it is required and the device encrypts at setup.
Bootloaders are locked and unlocking it causes a notice on boot.
Also when you unlock the bootloader you wipe the device.

Currently for phones with locked bootloaders there are very few exploits.
Go over to XDA and see how many people have rooted Galaxy S6 or LG G4 phones if they did not get the bootloader unlocked by S-OFF with LG or buying a full retail Samsung.

You are not going break into an Android phone running 6.x with encryption and a locked bootloader.
 
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