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I don't think anyone really believes that Apple is engaged in price fixing as it is legally defined. I raised the issue of legality as a question in my initial post to stimulate the conversation and get someone to explain why it isn't illegal. But no one has yet convincingly argued in this forum that Apple does not fix (set, control, dictate) prices, only that it is not illegal. I think most people who have shopped for Apple products would agree with this point of view.

Keebler-You seem very confident in your knowledge of Apple's business practices. Can you give us some idea of what Apple's profit margin might be for some of its products?
 
Sony also uses minimum advertised prices in many instances.

Here is a good article about the concept.

It's becoming a very common practice among consumer electronics manufacturers. I tried to get this concept across above, apparently without success: Just because a manufacturer enforces a MAP on retailers does not mean that they can't sell the produce for less than MAP. They can sell the product for whatever price they please, they just can't advertise it for anything less MAP. Hence, rebates, "we pay the sales tax" and other back-door discount schemes.
 
You can get lots of discounts on Apple products, they just usually come in the form of bundles, like extra RAM or a printer or a special rebate or whatever. The refurbs are also very good deals.

Try Smalldog or Powermax, two excellent Apple discounters, and stay on top of the deal sites like dealmac and the deals section of low end mac. Also, when the product line is refreshed you wont see many deals, but over time they start to show up. Then the new refresh comes, and they discount the old stuff like crazy.
 
i got my iMac for $50 less at CompUSA (they are going out of business), not much of a discount but I was expecting to pay the apple-suggested price so i had some extra moolah to get printer ink and blank dvds.
 
I don't think anyone really believes that Apple is engaged in price fixing as it is legally defined. I raised the issue of legality as a question in my initial post to stimulate the conversation and get someone to explain why it isn't illegal. But no one has yet convincingly argued in this forum that Apple does not fix (set, control, dictate) prices, only that it is not illegal. I think most people who have shopped for Apple products would agree with this point of view.

Keebler-You seem very confident in your knowledge of Apple's business practices. Can you give us some idea of what Apple's profit margin might be for some of its products?

Since Apple is a publicly traded company, its margins are public knowledge and disclosed on a quarterly basis. I believe they are operating at about a 26-27% gross margin on cost of goods sold.

Also, someone commented before about the Apple stores competing against 3rd party stores. Keep in mind that Apple retail is a separate division of Apple and must "buy" the products it sells from Apple the same as any other reseller. So in effect they are buying at relatively the same prices, but my bet would be that there is some sort of discount.
 
I don't think anyone really believes that Apple is engaged in price fixing as it is legally defined. I raised the issue of legality as a question in my initial post to stimulate the conversation and get someone to explain why it isn't illegal. But no one has yet convincingly argued in this forum that Apple does not fix (set, control, dictate) prices, only that it is not illegal. I think most people who have shopped for Apple products would agree with this point of view.

Keebler-You seem very confident in your knowledge of Apple's business practices. Can you give us some idea of what Apple's profit margin might be for some of its products?

hi mguy,

i can't directly. i just know 2 seperate resellers who said they make SFA on their margins. as for the rest, it has nothing to do with apple's business practices, but general reseller practices. i worked for a few software companies and working closely with the reseller distribution chain so i'm very experienced by how it works.

thankfully, i'm out of that world now :)
 
I agree that this is not price fixing, and it is just that they can't bring down the price. I think that macs for the most part are pretty cheap.
 
apple cranks up the price of RAM $200 on a stick of 1gig for notebooks

And since Apple voids your warranty if you buy RAM from any of the thousands of competitors, that is price fixing.

Oh.. wait... no they don't.


Ok, since only the RAM you buy from Apple will work in an Apple, that is price fixing.

Er.. hold on, lemme try again...

Since Apple keeps it a secret what sort of RAM will work...


Aw, nuts... Ok, I give up. There is no way to make your comment meaningful.
 
let's just be clear about our terms:

Apple can "fix" the price for its products just like any other company. Distributors may be limited to what prices they can advertise, and some may even sell for a loss to gain your long-term business. Example: Magazine companies fix their prices but newsstands often sell them for less (or more!)

Price-fixing is a specific term related to collusion between two or more separate (usually competing) companies, in which they both agree to sell their similar/identical products for the same price (often raising the price for both). That way, both companies don't undercut each other and both reap higher profits. Example: AMD and Intel get together in secret and say that (remember - example!) 3.0Ghz processors will be $700. That collusion takes competition out of the equation because the prices are fixed and there are few or no other suppliers. Both companies can raise the price to $900 and equally reap the profits while the customers lose out.
 
Grimace, thanks for your thoughtful comments. Your definition of price fixing seems to match what Apply and affiliated resellers are doing nicely (though its certainly not strictly illegal or they couldn't continue doing it). Apple and the resellers are separate companies, they compete (at least the resellers are in competition for customers for the products they sell), they agree on the price for identical products (at least they advertise the the same price except for maybe a $5 difference--big wup), this practice would result in them not undercutting each other and achieving equal profitability (certainly higher than if they were allowed to competitively reduce prices), and they can all agree to raise the prices (to whatever Apple would dictate) and would all reap the higher profits. This seems to match all the conditions of your definition. In addition, contrary to your suggestion, the posts in this forum thread seem to indicate that resellers can't sell Apple products at a loss to gain your long term business because Apple tells them what to charge and no less. If it look, walks, and quacks like price fixing, might it be so?
 
Grimace, thanks for your thoughtful comments. Your definition of price fixing seems to match what Apply and affiliated resellers are doing nicely (though its certainly not strictly illegal or they couldn't continue doing it). Apple and the resellers are separate companies, they compete (at least the resellers are in competition for customers for the products they sell), they agree on the price for identical products (at least they advertise the the same price except for maybe a $5 difference--big wup)
CompUSA and other Apple resellers are NOT making secret plans by themselves to sell Apple computers at a certain price. It is Apple that tells CompUSA that they have to sell at a certain price and they tell the same thing to other Apple resellers. Last time I checked, Apple and CompUSA aren't competing, the other one is a manufacturer and the other a seller. The only deals going on are between the manufacturer (Apple) and the reseller (like CompUSA)!

If it look, walks, and quacks like price fixing, might it be so?
It only looks, walks and quacks like price fixing if you have bad eyesight and hearing. The reason why REAL price-fixing (for example, Appple, HP, Dell, Sony and others make a deal to sell all their $1000 laptops for $100 more) is bad is that it discourages competition, and the consumer doesn't have a choice but to buy a overpriced computer. If there is no price-fixing between different manufacturers, then if somebody just doesn't like Apples pricing, they can turn to someone else, like Dell, who sell their prices for a lot less.
 
MacAnkka, nice try. I must be blind and deaf, since Apple's arrangement with resellers and their consensus to sell the same products for the same prices certainly meets Grimace's definition of price fixing. Note the qualifier in the definition: "... at least the resellers are in competition ... " It doesn't require Apple to be in competion with the resellers (though it seems silly to argue that it isn't). If you or others want to offer a different definition, lets see it. Oops, I forgot, I can't see.
 
These quotes from earlier posts should clarify:

...Keep in mind that Apple retail is a separate division of Apple and must "buy" the products it sells from Apple the same as any other reseller...

...Just because a manufacturer enforces a MAP on retailers does not mean that they can't sell the produce for less than MAP. They can sell the product for whatever price they please, they just can't advertise it for anything less MAP.

let's just be clear about our terms:

"fix" the price: Example: Magazine companies fix their prices but newsstands often sell them for less (or more!)

Price-fixing:Example: AMD and Intel get together in secret and say that (remember - example!) 3.0Ghz processors will be $700. That collusion takes competition out of the equation because the prices are fixed and there are few or no other suppliers. Both companies can raise the price to $900 and equally reap the profits while the customers lose out.

The Price-fixing example is different that what Apple does because Apple (and other companies, like Sony)...state terms in their contracts with distributors/retailers that the retailer won't advertise below a certain point...again, read IJ Reilly's post above.

I must be blind and deaf

Can't help with the deaf part, but try running your finger across the image below:
 

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No...

Apple has a monopoly on Apple branded computers. Only Apple branded computers are sold by Apple. Hence Apple = the entire market or what have you when it comes to the OS X platform, and yes, they can be said to be "price fixing" for all we care.

By this logic, every company in the world has a monopoly over their own product.

Dude...you're wrong about the price fixing thing. Sorry.
 
Grimace was %100 correct.

Sounds like someone is upset they can't ( or shouldn't be able to ) afford a Mac but really wants one.... so they go after the "Price fixing" daemon. "MAP" is a tool that many companies use to make sure that B&M stores have a legitimate shot at making sales, you don't want the internet cannibalizing your best outlet for drawing in new customers. "MAP" is neither illegal or price fixing.

Apple is not involved in price fixing, get over it.
 
Its not price fixing because you have alternatives. You can buy a Dell, you can buy an HP, Sony Vaio, Gateway, Lenovo, and a million other brands.

How is it that nobody accuses Intel of fixing prices and stifling competition in the manufacture/sale of C2D chips?

Pubb
 
Apple and the resellers are separate companies, they compete (at least the resellers are in competition for customers for the products they sell), they agree on the price for identical products (at least they advertise the the same price except for maybe a $5 difference--big wup), this practice would result in them not undercutting each other and achieving equal profitability

:D :D :D :D :D You are saying CompUSA or whatever are in competition? Apple retails to CompUSA CompUSA sells more than just Apple products. Apple just sells Apple products they do not have to retail to CompUSA if they do not wish. They are not competitors you are crazy for thinking so :D that is like saying Walmart is a competitor to Microsoft because they sell one of their products. :D :D
 
The profit margin on apple products are REALLY low. Store don't have much mark up on them, if they didn't sell them for the same price apple did they wouldn't make any money. You wouldn't believe how little stores make on apple sales. On most iPods the store only makes about $10 per unit. This is not a lot when they might make $50 or more on another MP3 player.

TS

Exactly. Remember back when there was no Apple Store? Prices were pretty similar across the board. When the Apple store came out, Apple kept their retailers happy by promising not to undercut them on price. There are places where stock hardware is a little cheaper (small dog), but most of the retailers (well those who care enough to try <cough> NOT BESTBUY <ahem>) try to offer other bundles that Apple doesn't offer in order to be competitive.
 
A relevant story from today's LA Times:

Antitrust law losing its teeth

The Supreme Court has relaxed rules against price fixing. Coming up: a big case for retailers.

WASHINGTON — With a push from the Bush administration, the Supreme Court is in the midst of steady, if little noticed, retreat from enforcing the antitrust laws that for decades have guarded against monopolies and price fixing.

In the last year, the court has relaxed or repealed several rules designed to prevent anti-competitive schemes, and later this month will hear another widely followed case that could dramatically change the rules of the retailing business.

...

The most important test of the anti-antitrust trend comes before the court March 26. The Bush administration, the National Assn. of Manufacturers and other big-business groups are urging the court to repeal a nearly century-old rule that bars the fixing of retail prices by manufacturers.

The case involves a dispute over a Los Angeles-area company's pricing of its women's handbags. Lawyers and economists say the outcome could affect the pricing and marketing of a vast array of products, including tennis rackets, golf clubs, plumbing fixtures and appliances.

Under current practices, product makers can set a "manufacturer's suggested retail price," but that price is rarely paid by consumers because independent dealers are free to sell for less.

Since 1911, the court has held to the "Dr. Miles rule," which forbids a manufacturer and a retailer from agreeing on a minimum price for the product.

The rule itself has a colorful history. At the turn of the century, the Dr. Miles Medical Company of Indiana sought to prop up the prices of its secret elixirs and potions through deals with retail druggists. It complained of "certain establishments, known as department stores" that had adopted "a cut-price system" and thereby caused "much confusion, trouble and damage."

Unmoved, the Supreme Court declared "injurious to the public interest" all contracts and agreements between manufacturers and dealers, saying "their sole purpose [was] the destruction of the competition and the fixing of prices."

The Dr. Miles rule is credited with helping create an extraordinarily competitive retail market in the United States. The department stores of the early 20th century have been followed by waves of discounters, now including Internet sellers.

The company involved in the case before the court, Leegin Creative Leather Products, makes handbags, shoes and jewelry in the City of Industry, and it sells them through small stores under the Brighton brand. Its president, Jerry Kohl, told retailers they must sell the handbags at the price he set. When he learned Kay's Kloset in a suburb of Dallas was selling at a discount, Kohl cut it off from further sales.

The owners of Kay's Kloset sued, alleging they were being punished for discounting. A jury agreed and awarded $1.2 million in damages, which was tripled to $3.6 million because it was a violation of the antitrust laws. Relying on the Dr. Miles rule, the U.S. appeals court in New Orleans upheld the verdict.

Last fall, Washington lawyer Theodore Olson, the former U.S. solicitor general, appealed to the Supreme Court, urging the justices to overturn the Dr. Miles rule.

Bush administration lawyers joined the case on Olson's side. In its brief to the high court, the administration argued the rule is outdated and "cannot withstand modern economic analysis."

"Dr. Miles should be overruled," said U.S. Solicitor General Paul Clement.

They argue that while product makers must compete against other manufacturers, they should be free to market their brands as they choose. Some companies want to sell their products through a network of retailers who offer special displays and extra service to customers. In exchange, the retailers are promised a fixed price and a guaranteed profit margin.

The manufacturers and some retailers complain about the "free rider" problem: the discounter who sells for less but does not offer the service or display that helps promote the brand.

Consumer advocates say a court ruling in favor of manufacturers would be felt in higher prices for many products.

Repealing the Dr. Miles rule "will change the whole field of retail pricing," said Mark Cooper, research director of the Consumer Federation of America. If the Dr. Miles rule is repealed, "the retailers will hug the manufacturers, and they will put in a price floor. It will hurt the discounters."

...

Though the Supreme Court has held to the Dr. Miles rule that outlaws retail price fixing, Congress made a partial exception to the rule during the 1950s and '60s at the behest of industry. States were permitted to adopt "fair trade" laws that cleared the way for manufacturers and retailers to fix prices.

The experiment proved costly to consumers. A Justice Department study in the late 1960s found certain products in the "fair trade" states cost 18% to 27% more. Congress moved to repeal its earlier measure, and in 1975, President Ford signed into law a renewed ban on price fixing by manufacturers.

The state price-fixing laws had "prevented the American people from receiving the benefit of lower prices on cameras, watches, sporting goods, small appliances, auto supplies and many other brand-name products," Ford said when he enacted the bill. The measure, he said, would "enable consumers in all 50 states to shop for the best products at the lowest possible prices."

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-antitrust19mar19,1,5437581.story
 
TheAnswer: You say that "The Price-fixing example is different that what Apple does because Apple (and other companies, like Sony)...state terms in their contracts with distributors/retailers that the retailer won't advertise below a certain point..." So, by making the fixing of advertised prices part of the contract makes it no longer fixing of advertised prices? How does formalizing the behavior in the contract change the nature of the behavior?

From IJ Reilly's post: "Since 1911, the court has held to the 'Dr. Miles rule,' which forbids a manufacturer and a retailer from agreeing on a minimum price for the product." This would seem to bar Apple and its reseller's from agreeing on a minimum (selling or advertised selling) price for the product, but apparently this has not met a legal challenge.

Snowmoon, dude, there's no need to ascribe motives to another's opinion about this subject matter. It's just a friendly discussion about price fixing (or not, depending upon your point of view); nothing to get upset about.
 
So, by making the fixing of advertised prices part of the contract makes it no longer fixing of advertised prices? How does formalizing the behavior in the contract change the nature of the behavior?

Because you are allowed to do that. All companies that have distributors are in this same boat. HP, Compaq, Sony -- all can be bought directly from the company or in a store -- almost always for the same base price. It is a number given to resellers so that they have a basic idea of what kind of profit other distributors are getting. (Apple sells X product for $95 to distributors and tells them it should sold for $100. All distributors get $5/unit sold.)

Retailers always have the option of selling Product X for less than $100 (or even $95) and take a hit - though they may not be able to advertise b/c of an MAP. Or, they can try and sell Product X for more than $100 and hope for customers who don't shop around.

Price-fixing, as a legal term, only applies when two or more companies get together in secret and remove the opportunity to buy from anyone else at a lower price point. Since distributors can sell at whatever price they choose, there is no fixing, formally or otherwise.
 
You say that "The Price-fixing example is different that what Apple does because Apple (and other companies, like Sony)...state terms in their contracts with distributors/retailers that the retailer won't advertise below a certain point..." So, by making the fixing of advertised prices part of the contract makes it no longer fixing of advertised prices? How does formalizing the behavior in the contract change the nature of the behavior?

No, you misunderstand...the fixing of advertised prices only makes it just that - the fixing of advertised prices, which does not equal the minimum price that the item can be sold for. As others have pointed out multiple times...retailers are free to: sell it for less without advertising it, offer "we pay the tax specials", bundle the product with other items or warranties. These behaviors are a lot different from the numerous price fixing examples given in this thread.
 
Here are a couple more examples: Let's say there's only one wholesaler for beef in the Sacramento area, and they distribute to Biba, Calfornia Fat's, The Firehouse...etc. They might tell them, don't advertise such-and-such cut of beef for less than $15. This would be legal...even if they happened to own a Morton's Steakhouse nearby.

Now what wouldn't be legal, is if Biba Caggiano got together with Frank Fat and every other restaurant owner in downtown and they agree that you can't sell a good steak in downtown for under $30...that would be price fixing.
 
Grimace, the fact that you are allowed to do something doesn't in itself change the behavior of what you are doing, though it might give you legal and contractual cover.

The distinction between the sell price and the advertised price may be more conceptual than practical. Reducing the price to attract customers and stimulate sales becomes largely ineffective if the retailer is not allowed to advertise the price reduction. If they want to sell below Apple's "recommended" price, why should they not be able to inform the customers of that fact before they enter their store? The practical result of an MAP restriction is a constraint on sell price variability. If the store must keep quiet about their willingness to sell at a lower price, why would they lower the price?

Also, I'm not convinced that resellers are all that free to cut the price below the MAP. Earlier posts in this forum suggest that Apple can apply pressure against this, perhaps by threatening to revoke the reseller's license with Apple? If Apple isn't trying to fix (set, control) prices, why do retailers have to resort to gimmicks like "we pay the tax special" rather than just being allowed to honestly tell the customer what their intended sell price is. Talk about a house of mirrors ...
 
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