Privacy Advocates and Devs Raise Concerns About Third-Party App Access to TrueDepth Camera

Porco

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Don't like it buy another phone. I am tired of privacy advocates (otherwise known as tech averse idiots) dictating what I can and cannot do.
Hey, you can be a tech lover and a privacy lover too. The two things are not mutally exclusive. Have you heard of something called encryption for example? :rolleyes:

What exactly have these so-called ‘idiots’ stopped you doing exactly? I don’t think anyone really wants to stop letting you trade your privacy to people/apps/companies if you want to, this is about consent and choice. If an app wants to gather and keep data from a user, the user should be aware of that, the reasons why, and be able to make an informed choice as to whether they want to go ahead or not.

It’s about enabling choice for users, not stopping you doing anything. And it’s about users being able to decide where they want the balance to be drawn between privacy and certain kinds of functionality that require giving up some of that privacy. It isn’t a black and white ‘total privacy vs zero privacy’ zero-sum game.
 

Analog Kid

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I dunno. Seems like there's no reason to believe that there's more invasive information from the 3D than the 2D. Once it's unlocked you have positive ID of the user. Can you tell depression from a 2D image?

On the one hand the TrueDepth camera makes these features easier to capture, but it's also more obvious that they're available because it's the same biometric tool ensuring your identity so should reduce the complacency that might come from people thinking "I'm safe because they don't have depth data"...
 

Sasparilla

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Don't like it buy another phone. I am tired of privacy advocates (otherwise known as tech averse idiots) dictating what I can and cannot do.
Um, privacy is one of the things Apple is known for (and virtually no other large player) - a tent pole feature of the company.

But with something new like this (unlike your fingerprint the devs can take some (?) of your face scan data off the phone) - so Apple will need to figure out how to make this work from a privacy standpoint. Over the next year or two they'll figure it out.

In the mean time everything will be okay. JMHO...
 

Analog Kid

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Don't like it buy another phone. I am tired of privacy advocates (otherwise known as tech averse idiots) dictating what I can and cannot do.
The strongest privacy advocates I know are also technically brilliant. When you know the tech, you have a clearer view of the risks that accompany the benefits-- and also know that there are often ways to achieve the same goals while preserving privacy.
 

scrapesleon

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I don’t know what privacy you are talking about but the phone is scanning your face you automatically lost your privacy by then
 

ke-iron

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Isn’t this where the share analytics option comes into play? I currently have all sharing of analytics turned off.
 

macdude3

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So now being able to track depression is a bad thing? I really don't see how this is any different than access to the front facing camera. Sure, its slightly easier to get facial expression information now, but its literally no different than it was before.
 

i make movies

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This reminds me of all the privacy concern items that swirled when Touch ID was released. Now it's looked upon as one of the iPhones greatest hardware aspects.

If you're not comfortable using the technology, then don't use it. This isn't something Apple is forcing upon you.
This isn't about being afraid of technology. The main difference is, with TouchID, there is no way for app develop to every get access to your fingerprints. With FaceID, as the main article states...

"Apps have no access to the facial map that Face ID uses to unlock your device, but developers are able to use the TrueDepth camera to scan a user's face for the purpose of creating more realistic augmented reality apps"

So it's true that app developer still do not have access to the data that unlocks your phone, but it still has access to the camera that's used to track all the points on your face. Apps are able to see a full 3D face map along with a "live read-out" of 52 micro-movements in the eyelids, mouth, and other features. App developers could theoretically collect the live readout, and also snap a pic from both the regular front camera and the TrueDepth camera and easily a create a super realistic 3D version of your face.

Sure, that's a long shot, but at least with TouchID, there was never a way for app developer to access any part of the TouchID sensors.
 

Bacillus

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You must either be a total noob or completely uninterested NOT to see the vast marketing opportunities on people's reactions on (ad's) content and the associated risks.
Apple will probably continue to sell mass (essentially private) data in "de-personalized" form - allowing it to comply with its privacy policy and still grab truckloads of income, interpreting and selling its customer behavior.
Actually, as currently happens, Google will be able to re-personalize that data based on patterns and/or IP metadata - essentially zero-ing out Apple's privacy guarantees.
Consequently, even random/depersonalized facial data will introduce new hazards and issues that we can hardly think of, while privacy thresholds tend to get passed in an irreversible manner.
Implications will be incomparable to fingerprint data (which is better secured/in-device anyway)

Complex matter - and I do realize this is not a solution, merely a framework against which solutions must be found.
It may help to start with a plausible outcome: consider a worldwide (distributed?) database of FaceID users, complete with pictures and patterns - where the principal question is: who would you want to give access ?
Start answering now...
 
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0958400

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Don't like it buy another phone. I am tired of privacy advocates (otherwise known as tech averse idiots) dictating what I can and cannot do.
Forgive me, but the same advice you give others, is the advice that should be given here.
 

tzm41

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As the de facto industry leader, it will be interesting to see how Apple deals with these questions. Insurance and marketing companies love learning more about how we behave and what we look like (color of skin, attractiveness, propensity to smile, state of teeth etc). Unfortunately, the consequences likely won't be good for the large majority of people out there who will be profiled and sorted into risk classes.
Regarding this comment I wonder what people's opinions are about those acceleration trackers provided by insurance companies which allow them to lower premiums for people who drive smoother.
 

0958400

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[QUOTE="Dwalls90, post: 25538307, member: 277477"
If you're not comfortable using the technology, then don't use it. This isn't something Apple is forcing upon you.[/QUOTE]
Of course, you are correct. But isn't it healthy to discuss worries, doubts and problems, in order to eliminate those and improve a product? Things improve by looking at them critically.
 

jarman92

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First of all, that app is very cool. Second of all, anybody who uses it can see it provides the most basic face "mask." I'd imagine its something similar to what Snapchat gets with just the front-facing camera. There is no way to discern age, race, gender, etc. from just that data. This article is just much ado about nothing, using Apple's name to generate clicks.
 
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macguru212

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It is funny, it is on essence the same technology Microsoft has used since Kinect and since 2015 has used in Windows 10 with some laptops and tablets (Surface Devices and other high end devices), and yet pretty much no one complained until Apple released their implementation.
I think people expect more from Apple + already distrust Microsoft enough to know better.
 
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Ankou_Sabat

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I think there should be a separate set of permissions for the scanner itself. When an app asks for access to the camera that shouldn't include by default the "scanner" device actions at all. If you trust an app to scan, then it should request access to "scanner" functions.
 
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Swift

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What a pile o' crap. Your face has no reasonable expectation of privacy. In fact, evolution has built in an exquisite sensitivity for recognizing faces. A few pixels on a blob in the background of a photo can be recognized by other humans. They found, possibly, what happened to Amelia Earhart by doing all kinds of computations of the face and body of a woman sitting down and looking in the other direction. Is there a possibility of using the mathematical data produced by the Face ID cameras to fool the data already in the Secure Enclave? I remain to be convinced. Of course, all our security measures are depending on encryption, and when we develop quantum computers, circumventing that will be a snap! Oh, me, oh, my...